the danger of reading someone's hand correctly

[diablo01 0]

Live $40 MTT 200/400I limp with 554th position and the button call, sb and bb call/check.5 players pot = 2000Flop is 5c 7h 8csb/bb check, i check.4 position is all in for 1900.button calls fairly quickly. sb/bb fold.I think for a while, count my chips, think some more...and go all-in for 2900 more. The button thinks for a long time and i swear is about to fold when i say 'your gonna have to PAY for that flush draw' He responds that 'naah, i'm not suited' hesitates, looks back at his cards and says 'oh, censored, i AM suited' and proceeds to call quickly with 9c10c. Obviously he called the first bet with an open ended straight draw. and ofcourse he hit the flush. Maybe he would have figured out he had like 15 outs if i didn't say anything but, maybe i should have just kept my mouth shut.who knows.You can't really play hoping your opponent hasn't read his hand right can you. Or is this something to watch out for?

[turd ferguson 1]

There's no possible way you could have read his hand if he didn't even know what he held. It's not that big of a deal. He probably would have looked back and noticed before he did anything with his hand anyway. No big deal. I usually keep my mouth shut when I'm all in though.

[Longshanks 0]

2 overs and flush draw yah he was gonna call

[diablo01 0]

There's no possible way you could have read his hand if he didn't even know what he held. It's not that big of a deal. He probably would have looked back and noticed before he did anything with his hand anyway. No big deal. I usually keep my mouth shut when I'm all in though.

I agree with the last part, especially since he was leaning on folding...no need to try to push him over the edge i guess is the point here.But i disagree with your statement that there's no way i could read his hand if even he doesn't realize all his outs, because i did put him on a flush draw, and he was, even though he didnt realize it.no?

[Bizzle 0]

2 overs and flush draw yah he was gonna call

The OP is saying that the guy didn't know he had the flush draw, all he thought he had was the OESD. Once he saw the suited cards, he called.And btw OP, you did NOT want a call there from any drawing hand. Shut your trap and let him make the mistake of folding.

[diablo01 0]

2 overs and flush draw yah he was gonna call

The point was the he DIDN'T know he had a flush draw. Maybe he didn't see the 2 clubs on the board or something. From his paly and talking to him later i believe he really didnt know until i told him waht my read of his hand was.I guess i forgot about the overs but i think its the open ended straigt draw combined with the flush draw that made him call, not the overs.

[speedz99 145]

But i disagree with your statement that there's no way i could read his hand if even he doesn't realize all his outs, because i did put him on a flush draw, and he was, even though he didnt realize it.no?

So what you're saying is that you're psychic? There is no other way to read someone's hand if they don't know what they have.

[Longshanks 0]

2 overs and flush draw yah he was gonna call

The point was the he DIDN'T know he had a flush draw. Maybe he didn't see the 2 clubs on the board or something. From his paly and talking to him later i believe he really didnt know until i told him waht my read of his hand was.I guess i forgot about the overs but i think its the open ended straigt draw combined with the flush draw that made him call, not the overs.

ahh thats true, would anyone else have just bet out at that highly coordinated board

[Bizzle 0]

But i disagree with your statement that there's no way i could read his hand if even he doesn't realize all his outs, because i did put him on a flush draw, and he was, even though he didnt realize it.no?

So what you're saying is that you're psychic? There is no other way to read someone's hand if they don't know what they have.

Wouldn't he have to be Superman? I mean, if he is psychic, he can't read their mind...because they don't know what he has. But if he were Superman he would just look through their cards and see what they have.Of course, if he were Superman, he would just look through everyones cards and raise preflop at appropriate times. Like with 55 late in a tourney.

[turd ferguson 1]

There's no possible way you could have read his hand if he didn't even know what he held. It's not that big of a deal. He probably would have looked back and noticed before he did anything with his hand anyway. No big deal. I usually keep my mouth shut when I'm all in though.

I agree with the last part, especially since he was leaning on folding...no need to try to push him over the edge i guess is the point here.But i disagree with your statement that there's no way i could read his hand if even he doesn't realize all his outs, because i did put him on a flush draw, and he was, even though he didnt realize it.no?

Unless you have X-Ray vision, reading someone's hand without them knowing what they hold is impossible. It would be akin to knowing their cards before they looked at them. It was just a coincidence that you put him on a flush draw.

[diablo01 0]

But i disagree with your statement that there's no way i could read his hand if even he doesn't realize all his outs, because i did put him on a flush draw, and he was, even though he didnt realize it.no?

So what you're saying is that you're psychic? There is no other way to read someone's hand if they don't know what they have.

HUH??I'm not trying to argue, but in this somewhat rare situation, it seem that this did occur. He called with one draw, the OESD, i happened to put him on a flush draw and mentioned it, which made him realize that he did have a flush draw as well.So i guess your point is that my read was wrong, becuase i should have put him on the OESD? What does his knowledge of his hand have to do with my read? That WOULD make someone pshychic. My read was based on his play of the hand up to that point. Not what i thought HE thought his two cards where.

[diablo01 0]

There's no possible way you could have read his hand if he didn't even know what he held. It's not that big of a deal. He probably would have looked back and noticed before he did anything with his hand anyway. No big deal. I usually keep my mouth shut when I'm all in though.

I agree with the last part, especially since he was leaning on folding...no need to try to push him over the edge i guess is the point here.But i disagree with your statement that there's no way i could read his hand if even he doesn't realize all his outs, because i did put him on a flush draw, and he was, even though he didnt realize it.no?

Unless you have X-Ray vision, reading someone's hand without them knowing what they hold is impossible. It would be akin to knowing their cards before they looked at them. It was just a coincidence that you put him on a flush draw.

I did'nt know my read was right at the time. Obviously my read was wrong but didn't it turn out to be correct?Maybe the title of the post should have been: The dangers of reading someones hand wrong when it turns out its actually right.ONE thousand pardons!!!! :roll:

[Hobbes 1]

I did'nt know my read was right at the time. Obviously my read was wrong but didn't it turn out to be correct?Maybe the title of the post should have been: The dangers of reading someones hand wrong when it turns out its actually right.ONE thousand pardons!!!! :roll:

It is an important distinction though. Let's say you had just called the flop bet and a non-club Jack turns. You don't want to give him a free card on the river to catch his flush so you push, but he's got the nuts so he obviously calls. Reminds me of the famous Hellmuth/Cloutier hand where Hellmuth read Cloutier as being weak on a four-flush board. TJ thought he was bluffing on the river, Hellmuth made a great call, TJ turns his hand over and after a few seconds says, "Wait, I do have a club" and wins the hand with the flush.

[speedz99 145]

Lol, either way you put him on a draw, which is correct.We just like being assholes.

[diablo01 0]

Maybe the lesson learned is this: I could have easlily accomplished the same thing as well as protect myself from this unusal situation is to have said " you have to pay for the DRAW'And not be specific about which draw i put him on, as sometimes maybe an extra draw here or there that a player may not see may swing the decision to a call.Thanks for the help. I knew we would get there eventually.

[turd ferguson 1]

Maybe the lesson learned is this: I could have easlily accomplished the same thing as well as protect myself from this unusal situation is to have said "..."And not be specific about which draw i put him on, as sometimes maybe an extra draw here or there that a player may not see may swing the decision to a call.Thanks for the help. I knew we would get there eventually.

FYPThe safe bet is to just keep quiet. You can't say anything stupid if you aren't talking. Just sit there quietly looking at the table with your pants around your ankles and your ass in the air so that once he calls and hits his draw he can ram a splintered 2x4 into your rectum as expeditiously as possible. That's poker.

[Royal_Tour 0]

There's no possible way you could have read his hand if he didn't even know what he held. It's not that big of a deal. He probably would have looked back and noticed before he did anything with his hand anyway. No big deal. I usually keep my mouth shut when I'm all in though.

I agree with the last part, especially since he was leaning on folding...no need to try to push him over the edge i guess is the point here.But i disagree with your statement that there's no way i could read his hand if even he doesn't realize all his outs, because i did put him on a flush draw, and he was, even though he didnt realize it.no?

Unless you have X-Ray vision, reading someone's hand without them knowing what they hold is impossible. It would be akin to knowing their cards before they looked at them. It was just a coincidence that you put him on a flush draw.

I did'nt know my read was right at the time. Obviously my read was wrong but didn't it turn out to be correct?Maybe the title of the post should have been: The dangers of reading someones hand wrong when it turns out its actually right.ONE thousand pardons!!!! :roll:

Well then good sir,You should have said That open ended straight flush draw etc...But i agree 100% with Turd, You have no idea what he had if he himself didnt even know.And it sounds like to me you tried to get the flush to fold.You are ahead of the flush, why on earth are you trying to talk him out of calling?You cant win tournaments by being scared of hands worse than yours

[Bizzle 0]

Maybe the lesson learned is this: I could have easlily accomplished the same thing as well as protect myself from this unusal situation is to have said " you have to pay for the DRAW'And not be specific about which draw i put him on, as sometimes maybe an extra draw here or there that a player may not see may swing the decision to a call.Thanks for the help. I knew we would get there eventually.

You don't want him drawing. Think about it mathematically. 2000 in the pot preflop. On the flop, 1900 goes all in. That makes the pot 3900. 1900 calls. The pot is now 5800. You jam. Your 1900 makes the pot 7700. It is now 2900 for him to call into a 10600 pot, or about 3.6:1. He needs slightly over a 21% chance of winning this pot-he should have instantly called with any OESD, and possibly an inside straight draw with 2 overs that he thinks might be good. I could even justify a call here from Ac 9d. Next time, do the right thing, call the flop and jam any turn, regardless of whether he hit his draw or not. Worst comes to worst-he hit his draw and now you are drawing to your 10 outer. No different than if the money had gone in on the flop and he turned it, but with the added benefit of him being able to fold if he misses.And once again, dont. talk. when. you. are. all. in. ever.

[diablo01 0]

Actually, regardless of the topic of this post, i never contended that i played ANY part of this hand right. I blew it on several counts. The tourny was actually only in the 3rd round. the average stack was less then 2500 i had close to 8 and the guy i put all in was the only other big stack at the table. That is a dangerous flop, with multiple draws, i only have bottom set, and i had an all-in and a call in front of me. And btw, the turn WAS a Jh, so i was toast anyway.Oh, and also, seat 4 had 910 os. so maybe he was more pissed that i opened my mouth then i was.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Maybe the lesson learned is this: I could have easlily accomplished the same thing as well as protect myself from this unusal situation is to have said " you have to pay for the DRAW'And not be specific about which draw i put him on, as sometimes maybe an extra draw here or there that a player may not see may swing the decision to a call.Thanks for the help. I knew we would get there eventually.

You don't want him drawing. Think about it mathematically. And once again, dont. talk. when. you. are. all. in. ever.

I dont get this part.You calculated his pot odds to call.thats all? so the villain is getting correct pot odds to call his draw, whats the difference?He could invest 2 billion dollars on top but thats not going to change his "mathematical % win ratio" Pot odds are something villain will take into account to make "gambling" more correct.same with implied odds on unsuspecting cards in raised pots on weak boards to help build equity. That still doesnt change him being a favorite with his set, over a flush draw (which is what he put him on, a OESD & flush, is different)

[Kuge 0]

Lol, either way you put him on a draw, which is correct.We just like being assholes.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Actually, regardless of the topic of this post, i never contended that i played ANY part of this hand right. I blew it on several counts. The tourny was actually only in the 3rd round. the average stack was less then 2500 i had close to 8 and the guy i put all in was the only other big stack at the table. That is a dangerous flop, with multiple draws, i only have bottom set, and i had an all-in and a call in front of me. And btw, the turn WAS a Jh, so i was toast anyway.Oh, and also, seat 4 had 910 os. so maybe he was more censored that i opened my mouth then i was.

well that bring up another point i have "What sort of crap shoot was this??"3rd round blinds are 200/400 avg stack was less than 2500 and you have 5 people in a pot??all limping?seriously wtf

[Mercury69 3]

Taunting always comes back to bite yer a$$.

[diablo01 0]

Maybe the lesson learned is this: I could have easlily accomplished the same thing as well as protect myself from this unusal situation is to have said " you have to pay for the DRAW'And not be specific about which draw i put him on, as sometimes maybe an extra draw here or there that a player may not see may swing the decision to a call.Thanks for the help. I knew we would get there eventually.

You don't want him drawing. Think about it mathematically. And once again, dont. talk. when. you. are. all. in. ever.

I dont get this part.You calculated his pot odds to call.thats all? so the villain is getting correct pot odds to call his draw, whats the difference?He could invest 2 billion dollars on top but thats not going to change his "mathematical % win ratio" Pot odds are something villain will take into account to make "gambling" more correct.same with implied odds on unsuspecting cards in raised pots on weak boards to help build equity. That still doesnt change him being a favorite with his set, over a flush draw (which is what he put him on, a OESD & flush, is different)

I dont get it either but im not that smart.I will take a set over a flush draw anyday and twice on sunday

[diablo01 0]

well that bring up another point i have "What sort of crap shoot was this??"3rd round blinds are 200/400 avg stack was less than 2500 and you have 5 people in a pot??all limping?seriously wtfStarting stacks where 4000, 50/100 going up every 15 min. 9 people at the table so not everyone limped. :wink: