value bet question

[Abbaddabba 0]

We're ahead of each of the 3 remaining players random hands, but against the best of those 3 hands along with UTG, we aren't faring nearly as well. We're not getting called by all the hands; generally only the better ones (which are generally the ones that have us beat).If you want, you could enumerate all hands that dominate us relative to the total number of hand combinations, and narrow UTG's range down when factoring it in. I do not believe that any hand that dominates us will fold, except on the rare occasion, you'll get A10off to fold from the button and the SB. Your range is a bit too narrow, in that sense.I dont think that positional advantage will necessarily make up for that fully, unless you think that your opponents play poorly (or you play well, relative to them at least). If you believe that raising A9off from the cutoff is such an easy move, does that make raising A7off here a marginally profitable one too? A6off?

[Shimmering Wang 1]

We're ahead of each of the 3 remaining players random hands, but against the best of those 3 hands along with UTG, we aren't faring nearly as well.  We're not getting called by all the hands; generally only the better ones (which are generally the ones that have us beat).If you want, you could enumerate all hands that dominate us relative to the total number of hand combinations, and narrow UTG's range down when factoring it in.      I do not believe that any hand that dominates us will fold, except on the rare occasion, you'll get A10off to fold from the button and the SB.  Your range is a bit too narrow, in that sense.I dont think that positional advantage will necessarily make up for that fully, unless you think that your opponents play poorly (or you play well, relative to them at least).  If you believe that raising A9off from the cutoff is such an easy move, does that make raising A7off here a marginally profitable one too?  A6off?

I shall begin listing1) I fold ATo and AJo to a raise here, from the button and from the SB. 2) I also fold KQo and KJo to a raise on the button. Seems to me this is a case for raising. I don't want live hands calling behind me, especially in position. Also, it sucks to let hands like TJs, JQs, 67s, etc get the correct odds to play from the button or the small blind.3) We're charging the weak-limper extra money to play with us out of position. This is a HUGE advantage for our hand.d) if the small blind calls us with a dominating hand (say AJ) we still have a huge amount of fold equity, because he's still drawing most of the time. If he misses the flop, he's gone almost all the time, unless he has overcards, in which case he's ditching the turn often enough for us to show enormous profit.5) If you don't think you play better than your opponents, what are you doing playing? I always operate under the assumption that I play well enough to take reasoable (full) advantage of my positional equities. Don't you? If not, why are you playing this game? Players usually suck. We don't suck. Easy. 6) That first bolded statement might be the silliest thing I've ever read. I'm not even sure what to do with it.I have more thoughts on the subject, but I'll get to the question you posed at the bottom of your post.I don't know what the cutoff is in the cutoff seat against one limper. I'm sure there's a chart out there written by a better player than me that gives the exact hand that shows a profit in a typical game. I was just trying to illustrate the point that our equity in the cutoff seat against a limper is high. I'd raise A8 here, and A7 if the situation were right.I'd raise JQo.I'd raise 9Ts.I'd raise K8sI'd raise a lot of hands, because we'll almost always see the flop in position, we play well, and isolating an early limper is the fucking money, baby, and it'll get us on the pro-fit-tip.Wang

[Abbaddabba 0]

I'd raise all of those hands too.Primarily because when we get called by a strong hand, our hand has value in it's suitedness and connectedness which we can rely on, plus at least one of our high cards will be clean, generally - if not both.I also think that you're being generous to assume that A10 and AJ fold here to the CO raise. That's precisely the problem with A9off, to me. All of your hand value is high card value, and hands that have you beat will call. You're faced with the same problem that you would be with A7off, except that your 9 has marginally more high card value, in the event that UTG limped with a gapper like 8/10s.I also do normally think that i have an edge against players i sit with. But that isnt to say that i think they necessarily play poorly, or that i play particularly well relative to them. It may be the case that for specific individuals at the table, i think the edge is ambiguous. You can't always have the luxery of playing against complete tards.If it is the case that UTG and the blinds are geneally poor players (passive in particular), then i think that you can make up for it.

6) That first bolded statement might be the silliest thing I've ever read. I'm not even sure what to do with it.

When i said have us beat, i mean dominated. There are hands that are better than ours, as in that they're more playable like KQs that dont necessarily have us dominated. But for the most part, the better hands are going to be the ones that have us dominated and they very rarely will fold, unless the blinds are tight (which is another condition that i said would make the raise better early on).I dont knwo though. Im willing to stop bothering with this, because im probably wrong. It just seems unintuitive. Maybe im underestimating the fold equity because im accustomed to different types of opponents.

[AlanBostick 0]

The turn bet is pretty much mandatory. The river bet is definitely mandatory given that you dogged the turn.Even seven-handed, raising a UTG limper with A9o seems rather LAGgy. to me. But then, in the games I usually play, my opponents' single biggest leak is cold-calling preflop raises much more than they should.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I'd raise all of those hands too.Good.  We agree. Friendship+.Primarily because when we get called by a strong hand, our hand has value in it's suitedness and connectedness which we can rely on, plus at least one of our high cards will be clean, generally - if not both.Most importantly, when we raise from late position, we want to have SOMETHING to play with when we're called in a spot we don't expect.  I think having a reasonable suited connector, two paint cards, or a decent ace are all good enough to fall back on.  That was my point I suppose.  I raise K9 here, too....I also think that you're being generous to assume that A10 and AJ fold here to the CO raise.  Really?  Are you calling a raise (when there's a limp) from the button with AT or AJ offsuit?  I'm just curious.  Even if we can assume we'll be called by these hands on the button occassionally, it's still not a big dealThat's precisely the problem with A9off, to me.  All of your hand value is high card value, and hands that have you beat will call.  You're faced with the same problem that you would be with A7off, except that your 9 has marginally more high card value, in the event that UTG limped with a gapper like 8/10s.I just don't see this problem you're referring to.  Sure, our hand doesn't play that well in a multiway pot.  Sure it doesn't play all that well if the opposition hits a hand.  But it plays well IN ALL OTHER CASES!I also do normally think that i have an edge against players i sit with.  But that isnt to say that i think they necessarily play poorly, or that i play particularly well relative to them.  It may be the case that for specific individuals at the table, i think the edge is ambiguous.  You can't always have the luxery of playing against complete tards.If it is the case that UTG and the blinds are geneally poor players (passive in particular), then i think that you can make up for it.If I have seen enough of a certain player to be uncertain of my edge, I generally assume I have no edge, all things equal.  This is rarely the case.  Even when players aren't "complete tards" they're likely to make considerable mistakes after the flop.  This is true all the way up to 10/20, in my limited experience.  They might not be total donks, but they probably don't toss enough variety into their play- and very likely play their hands very straightforwardly against this raise- to worry me (or you, or the OP).

6) That first bolded statement might be the silliest thing I've ever read. I'm not even sure what to do with it.

When i said have us beat, i mean dominated. There are hands that are better than ours, as in that they're more playable like KQs that dont necessarily have us dominated. But for the most part, the better hands are going to be the ones that have us dominated and they very rarely will fold, unless the blinds are tight (which is another condition that i said would make the raise better early on).Okay, makes a little more sense.At this point, I'll refer you back to the other points I made, especially about positional advantave and positive total fold equity, and any other buzzwords I may have tossed in.

I'm a drunk,Wang[/b]

[Shimmering Wang 1]

The turn bet is pretty much mandatory. The river bet is definitely mandatory given that you dogged the turn.Even seven-handed, raising a UTG limper with A9o seems rather LAGgy. to me.   But then, in the games I usually play, my opponents' single biggest leak is cold-calling preflop raises much more than they should.

In the games I play, the biggest weaknesses I see are bland/weak play from the blinds, weak postflop play, and an aversion to 3-betting preflop w/o extremely strong handsSeriously.So perhaps my opinion is colored. wang

[Abbaddabba 0]

Then maybe it's just a case of me not being qualified to critique a 10/20 hand due to lack of experience at those limits.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Then maybe it's just a case of me not being qualified to critique a 10/20 hand due to lack of experience at those limits.

Ah, fuck off. At least say, "I don't agree" instead of falling back on that lame stuff.Alan Bostick agrees with you, and HE plays 15/30!You raised some valid points, I just happen to think that, when taken in their entirety and compared to the advantages of raising before the flop, that I'm right and you're wrong. :)Cheers,Wang

[Abbaddabba 0]

Alan Bostick agrees with you, and HE plays 15/30!

He plays 15/30 live (well, based on his comment and the theads of his that ive seen)Which is a whole lot closer to what i play online than it is to 10/20 online. :wink:

[jayboogie 0]

I wouldn't call it a standard raise really, the raise would make sense if the limper is bad and the blinds tend to be weak and not defend much, otherwise I think you're better off just dumping it and waiting for a better hand. As for the hand, I don't get the check on the turn at all, you hit your best card, it's an automatic bet. You can decide to fold if you get check/raised and feel you're beat, but not betting when you hit your Ace doesn't make much sense.The river's pretty automatic too.

[econ_tim 0]

say you're a good player at a relatively tight table:what hands are limping UTG?I don't like to do it with much ...

[Abbaddabba 0]

The one hand that'll always be a limp for me there is JQs.

[screech 0]

Against a loose/weak limper, at an average 10/20 game, I'm raising here with A80 all the time. I might go lower depending on table feel. That where do you draw the line stuff is pretty hazy, and it really depends on game conditions. You can keep asking questions about what you do when you slide down in hand values, but that makes no sense, and it's impossible to argue against. There's not a huge difference between A8o and A6o, but the further you slide down, the less profitable the hands become, even if there's little relative value between the two hands.If you're raising with all the hands that Wang said (and I think you should), I don't see why you'd want to fold TT. It has a lot more equity.I hope this makes some sense, if not, read wangs post. I pretty much agree with everything he wrote. He's much better at organizing thoughts in a logical pattern.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I hope this makes some sense, if not, read wangs post. I pretty much agree with everything he wrote. He's much better at organizing thoughts in a logical pattern.

I thank you. But that "logical pattern" thing is borne of necessity due to extreme drunkenness. If it's just in a big paragraph, I'm worried it won't make sense. Lists = positiveBo Bice

[KDawgCometh 2]

say you're a good player at a relatively tight table:what hands are limping UTG?I don't like to do it with much ...

umm, well, to be honest, if the table is tight, someone limping utg is an awful player. Now lets get off of the PF stuff(and yes, for me this is an easy raise), and get to asking wtf was zim doing by not betting the turn, that is dead wrong

[econ_tim 0]

umm, well, to be honest, if the table is tight, someone limping utg is an awful player. Now lets get off of the PF stuff(and yes, for me this is an easy raise), and get to asking wtf was zim doing by not betting the turn, that is dead wrong

I think everyone agrees on betting the turn. (BTW, the UTG could reasonably LRR a few hands even if the table is tight).

[Abbaddabba 0]

Against a loose/weak limper, at an average 10/20 game, I'm raising here with A80 all the time. I might go lower depending on table feel. That where do you draw the line stuff is pretty hazy, and it really depends on game conditions. You can keep asking questions about what you do when you slide down in hand values, but that makes no sense, and it's impossible to argue against. There's not a huge difference between A8o and A6o, but the further you slide down, the less profitable the hands become, even if there's little relative value between the two hands.

For the same reason you fold A6off here, i fold A9off. Well, i dont always fold A9off - but the condtiions have to be right to raise. And if those conditions are right, i always raise - never limp.

I missed zims read that the player was loose/weak, but it really doesn't matter. We should raise here against any opponent. The looser/weaker he is, the more we should want to raise.

I know.That you missed that point was confusing, because if you assumed UTG to be tight/aggressive, _in my mind_ that changes it from marginal to a clear cut fold. You want UTG to be loose/passive, and the button (and blinds) to be tight passive.

If you're raising with all the hands that Wang said (and I think you should), I don't see why you'd want to fold TT. It has a lot more equity.

Is that to me?Man, im so confused. I dont know when it is that tens came into play here.

Really? Are you calling a raise (when there's a limp) from the button with AT or AJ offsuit? I'm just curious. Even if we can assume we'll be called by these hands on the button occassionally, it's still not a big deal

Folding A10off, calling A10s, 3betting AJoff or better (if the CO has statistics that i'd expect from zimmer). But then, my VPIP is only 19%. I'd be willing to bet that there are tons ofplayers even at teh 10/20 level who cold call A10off here.

umm, well, to be honest, if the table is tight, someone limping utg is an awful player. Now lets get off of the PF stuff(and yes, for me this is an easy raise), and get to asking wtf was zim doing by not betting the turn, that is dead wrong

That i can agree with.At first i thought there was some sort of advanced thinking that i wasnt aware of involved. :|

[screech 0]

For some reason I thought zim had TT. A lot of my previous posts make little sense. I still think this is a raise, but folding is not nearly as bad as I made it out to be. And calling would be pretty bad too.

[Abbaddabba 0]

You thought i was suggesting that we fold 10/10 in the CO with one limper?

[screech 0]

You thought i was suggesting that we fold 10/10 in the CO with one limper?

Yeah. That's why I was so confused. I must have got this hand mixed up with another one.You're right. Calling here is terrible. I prefer raising, but I don't think we give up much at all by folding. Against certain players, folding is clearly the best play.Most of what I said makes no sense. Sorry for the confusion.

[Canada 0]

7 handed, loose limper, on the CO A9o is a good raiseTighten up the limper or with a worse position and I prefer to fold.Calling is always asking for castrationOh BTW bet the fn turn

[Guest Zach6668]

You thought i was suggesting that we fold 10/10 in the CO with one limper?

Yeah. That's why I was so confused. I must have got this hand mixed up with another one.You're right. Calling here is terrible. I prefer raising, but I don't think we give up much at all by folding. Against certain players, folding is clearly the best play.Most of what I said makes no sense. Sorry for the confusion.

Bah. Here I am reading through this, thinking I am learning something... luckily I came to the second page...