more aggression!

[InsanityCubed 0]

It's usually better to value raise in late position, since you'll have a better chance of having more players in for one bet. By raising a first position bettor in second position, you are forcing more players to call two bets cold, which is bad for you, since even fish will often fold here. Getting heads up with the SB is not what you want here, since you'll lose potential value on the bigger betting streets when you do make the flush. Making the flush and getting the most value out of it is your main concern with this hand. You ended up getting two callers instead of a potential three, but you also made the pot big enough that a call down with a pair or A high might become correct if you are an aggressive player.

[Actuary 3]

with a drawing hand in a non-big pot that will win almost always when it hits, you want to build a pot w/o eliminating opponents.that's how I understand it.can't believe it went so long w/o the flop raise being mentioned in the thread!

[Abbaddabba 0]

The big objection to raising the flop is that I will get less money in with an equity edge. I can think of two reasons why. First, me raising could prevent MP or CO from raising, in which case I could 3-bet and get a lot of money in on the flop. Or, me raising gets someone to fold who would have given an extra big bet or two on later streets had I made a flush.

I think that far outweighs the marginal edge you're pushing on the flop.Also consider that, if everyone is calling, a free card isnt even that valuable even when you miss. You get paid 3 : 1 and youre 4: 1 to make the flush from the turn on, if two people behind you call. You'd prefer that everyone checked, but you're only losing a small amount of value on the bet for the call even when you miss.

[econ_tim 0]

with a drawing hand in a non-big pot that will win almost always when it hits, you want to build a pot w/o eliminating opponents.

you mean like this hand?

[screech 0]

with a drawing hand in a non-big pot that will win almost always when it hits, you want to build a pot w/o eliminating opponents.

you mean like this hand?

The two hands have a lot of differences.

[econ_tim 0]

The two hands have a lot of differences.

True, this hand is four handed and has a pot of 8SB going into the flop.That hand is three handed and has a pot of 10SB going into the flop.This hand is less vulnerable to redraws than the other hand.My relative position is the same in both hands.Which factors make this a call and the other a raise?

[screech 0]

I think the main reason is that your have a much stronger draw in the JT hand, and raising increases your equity more.In the JT hand, as long as your opponent doesn't have you dominated, you're looking very good. If he has AK/AQ/KQ, you will often win by just spiking a pair, and your pair will hold up more often if you knock the other opponent out. If a Q falls, you may win a lot of bets off your opponent. If he has overcards, it will be much easier to push him off his hand if a scare card hits the turn.In this hand, you will almost never win by spiking a pair, so your equity is not that high. Getting the pot HU will probably get expensive. This board will hit a lot of pf raising hands hard, and your remaining opponents might have hit it just as hard. It will be hard for you to win this pot by bluffing/semi-bluffing. It does no good for you to knock out weak pairs behind you if the pf raiser connected with his hand. You want these types of hands to stay in, because you are almost always going to have to hit one of your nine flush outs to win.

[Actuary 3]

with a drawing hand in a non-big pot that will win almost always when it hits, you want to build a pot w/o eliminating opponents.

you mean like this hand?

Screech can argue it better than I.

[TheIceman05 0]

Which factors make this a call and the other a raise?

TIMMAY! "You're so cute when you're frustrated." I haven't read anything past the quoted post, so I hope I'm not being repetitive:1) Your turn fold-equity is higher. I dunno if you plan on betting the turn or not, but (shrug)2) Your implied odds are better. A 3rd club sucks. A queen means you could KILL BITCHES!3) In the TJ hand, you actually have 6 likely pair outs. They're not good all the time, but whatever. In THIS thread, your kings are good some of the time, but your ducks never are4) You're more likely to get 3-bet on this hand........I peeked at screech's post before I hit the [submit] button. Seems like I'm just clicking the {I SECOND} button.Ice

[wrto4556 0]

I second what screech said.  Raising here is just simply not smart poker.

where the fuck have you been!!? Answer your damn phone or something.

[Abbaddabba 0]

1) Your turn fold-equity is higher. I dunno if you plan on betting the turn or not, but (shrug)

I dont think you'd ever want to take a free card if your raise was only called by the PFR.

[Jordan 1]

River bet is bad.

Vince Van Patten once told me that I couldn't win here by checking.

Maybe if this was no limit...- Jordan