kk with an a on the flop

[Briguy 0]

I should really start e-mailing my hand histories to work. :)Here we go (from memory): Third hand at the table.Stars 2/4, 10-handed. The only Stars 2/4 table above 40% to the flop this evening, as is typical.Hero is dealth K K on the button.UTG calls, 2 folds, MP calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.Flop (12.5 SB): A 8 4 5 checks, hero bets, 5 callsTurn (9 BB): J 5 checks, hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, 2 folds, CO callsRiver (13 BB): 2 3 checks, hero ???Can I value bet the river, against 3 opponents with the A out there, without reads? Could some donkey have slowplayed their A all the way, looking for overcalls or to CR the river? Or am I good to go? I feel lost when nobody shows any aggression, but they all refuse to fold on the flop/turn. It's pretty rare to find a no-foldem table on Stars, after all.

[Canada 0]

five players calling a bet on that flop (ie no draws beyond a gutshot), with perfect position, you can check that turn and pray for a K.1 of them has an Ace a lot more than 10% the time and you have very slim redraws.Take your infinite implied odds

[MrNiceGuy 0]

five players calling a bet on that flop (ie no draws beyond a gutshot), with perfect position, you can check that turn and pray for a K.1 of them has an Ace a lot more than 10% the time and you have very slim redraws.Take your infinite implied odds

Actually, giving them all random hands, the odds that at least one of them has an A are only 54%.It's really somewhat higher than that, I believe, because people like to play any A preflop.I think the turn bet is definitely good against loose players, when you can likely continue to get calls from gutshot draws and such. But I think checking behind on the river is probably best.

[Canada 0]

Actually, giving them all random hands, the odds that at least one of them has an A are only 54%.

What is it when they all have VPIP's averaging say 40-50% - I mean that halves your sample set and I don't think you'd remove too many Ax hands.You take another chunk out after all call that particular flop given a preflop raise and I'd be surprised if you are ahead 1 in 10.Aces are 'special' cards to fish - they always play them and they're terrified of 1 on the board

[Abbaddabba 0]

I dont know how you could justify betting that river.You're beat the vast majority of the time unless you're playing against mindless idiots.The fact that you're likely getting more than one call for the times that you're ahead counts for something, but not enough to overcome the fact that it's so probable that you're behind (and no better hands are folding).

[zimmer4141 0]

I honestly don't think you should bet the turn. With 5 callers in there, one of them has to have an ace almost 90% of the time. They're going to call with almost anything, so just check the turn and hope to trip up on the river.

[Razor 0]

I agree with Zimmer and Canada ... I don't know what the tables are like on Stars, but I check the turn and the river.

[Razor 0]

I agree with Zimmer and Canada ... I don't know what the tables are like on Stars, but I check the turn and the river.

I guess I should give my reasons,First off, I agree with your bet on the flop. I'm making this bet to see what ppl have. If I get raised, someone likely has a big ace, imo. A call on that board most likely means a weak ace, who's going to see the river, or a flush draw. I don't see much else out there. When the turn brings 3 to a flush, I feel lucky to be able to take off a free card on the river. If I miss the river, I'm checking it down. Cheers,Ray

[Briguy 0]

There's no flush on that board.I bet the turn because I thought any A would bet out or check-raise for value. A pretty easy bet-fold value bet from that position, or so I thought. Then I started getting concerned that an early position weak A might just call, looking for 1 million overcallers. That's why I chickened out on the river. On the one hand, I do get the point of being offered infinite odds to draw out against a flopped A. On the other, I hate missing value bets, and I think an A tips his hand somewhere along the way.Turns out, I won that hand. BB had TT and the other callers mucked behind him. I'm probably being results oriented over my river concerns, but I still wonder if checking through was too weak.

[Razor 0]

There's no flush on that board.

Sorry, my mistake

I bet the turn because I thought any A would bet out or check-raise for value.

I can't count how many times I've seen multiple people with A-rag check call the whole way down with an Ace on the flop. It happens all the time at the low limits I play at.

A pretty easy bet-fold value bet from that position, or so I thought. Then I started getting concerned that an early position weak A might just call, looking for 1 million overcallers. That's why I chickened out on the river. On the one hand, I do get the point of being offered infinite odds to draw out against a flopped A. On the other, I hate missing value bets, and I think an A tips his hand somewhere along the way.Turns out, I won that hand. BB had TT and the other callers mucked behind him. I'm probably being results oriented over my river concerns, but I still wonder if checking through was too weak.

I don't necessarily think the turn bet was wrong. Normally, everyone without an A (or other decent hand, i.e. 2 pair, set ... ) will fold to this bet. But after getting 2 callers, I have to put someone on an A, which makes it really hard for me to bet out again on the river.

[checkymcfold 0]

I honestly don't think you should bet the turn. With 5 callers in there, one of them has to have an ace almost 90% of the time. They're going to call with almost anything, so just check the turn and hope to trip up on the river.

i concur. check turn, and probably call the river UI, considering the size of the pot, but i wouldn't get too worked up about folding this if it's still 5-way by then.