luckbox mcgee needs a plan.

[spikymarv99 0]

One thing that you will realize when you move up the limits is that players play their strong hands uber aggresive. You lost 1BB in that hand, if this is a constant pattern, you will go broke in the long run. When you hit your two pair, jam it. In fact, I put in a raise on the flop to define the other hands. In truth you lost out on basically 2 BB.

Thanks for the advice, but I think you're wrong (especially on the flop play). Given that my villian raised pf, and there are 2 paint cards and 3 spades on the turn, he will bet this turn quite often. And why should I define my hand on the flop with a raise? This is very bad and just spewing chips for no reason IMO.

You raise on the flop to see how strong they really are. If you get re-raised, your in alot of trouble. That is the problem with posting hands and having people analyze it. You are there, we are not. You have played with him for an x amount of hands and have a read on him and all I can do is guess. Would he bet a Q in this spot or must he have an ace; or does he need anything? If he is a habitual continuation better, put in a raise to isolate so you can try and out play him on later streets. With bottom pair, you want to get heads up unless your calling just to hit two pairs. With respects to jamming when you hit two pair, if you think your bottom pair is behind and someone else is on a flush draw, you need to give up on the hand. Your outs are greatly dimished and I don't believe your getting the right price. In this case, you hit the two pair but didn't jam because of the flush. You are losing value on this play and make in unprofitable to try and catch the two pair. That is why I raise on the flop: to get a feel of what the others are holding. I am not putting down how you played it, I just would have played it differently for the reasons I stated. This is all semantics however bc I have no read on the players in the game.

[TheIceman05 0]

You lost 1BB in that hand, if this is a constant pattern, you will go broke in the long run. When you hit your two pair, jam it. In fact, I put in a raise on the flop to define the other hands. In truth you lost out on basically 2 BB.

i respectfully disagree with everything i quoted.

I disagree with the first part of what I quoted vehemently (and kinda respectfully), and agree like a total ass with what WRTO said.Seriously, man, what are you talking about?Raising this flop is pretty terrible. Since when is raising to 'define their hands' profitable? What if they just call? And if you get 3-bet, you're in the same position you were before, calling a bet because the pot's so big you have no real choice. This board get's 3-bet ALL the time. A, Q, draw heavy. He's calling here because he's got about 4.5 outs, and needs to take one off because of the size of the pot. Easy call. But a raise? No sir, that's reckless against two opponents. Pot odds = good. Equity = poor. Decision = call. And the decision to c/r this turn is the correct one, too. Any ace (and a queen from MP3) is going to keep firing, and a flush draw from MP3 does the same. This turn gets bet like 75+ % of the time, and the c/r is called more than half by at least one player. Also, it has the added bonus of making MP1 call 2-cold only getting 4.5:1, making his decision a lot easier on marginal spades that beat us.Anyone care to disagree? Or see something I don't?Ice

[spikymarv99 0]

You lost 1BB in that hand, if this is a constant pattern, you will go broke in the long run. When you hit your two pair, jam it. In fact, I put in a raise on the flop to define the other hands. In truth you lost out on basically 2 BB.

i respectfully disagree with everything i quoted.

I disagree with the first part of what I quoted vehemently (and kinda respectfully), and agree like a total ass with what WRTO said.Seriously, man, what are you talking about?Raising this flop is pretty terrible. Since when is raising to 'define their hands' profitable? What if they just call? And if you get 3-bet, you're in the same position you were before, calling a bet because the pot's so big you have no real choice. This board get's 3-bet ALL the time. A, Q, draw heavy. He's calling here because he's got about 4.5 outs, and needs to take one off because of the size of the pot. Easy call. But a raise? No sir, that's reckless against two opponents. Pot odds = good. Equity = poor. Decision = call. And the decision to c/r this turn is the correct one, too. Any ace (and a queen from MP3) is going to keep firing, and a flush draw from MP3 does the same. This turn gets bet like 75+ % of the time, and the c/r is called more than half by at least one player. Also, it has the added bonus of making MP1 call 2-cold only getting 4.5:1, making his decision a lot easier on marginal spades that beat us.Anyone care to disagree? Or see something I don't?Ice

It's ok, not everyone agrees on what is correct. I was reading through the thread and the OP posted that it was checked on the turn and when he bet the river, everyone folded. This kind of supports my read that the original raiser got none of the flop and that Op was probably in the lead on the flop or the other two were weak. To me, poker is about making reads and getting the most out of your hand when you think your on top or can take a pot away from someone. In this case, I think a raise on the flop gives him the lead and he takes it down on the turn regardless of whether he hits two pair or not. I don't know if you can make someone fold a strong Q in 5-10, but it seems the other two players were just fishing on the turn. So my analysis is correct, he lost an extra bet from each player on the flop. The Op needs to give us his read on the two players in the hand. The better the reads, the more money you can make with your marginal and sometimes even your weak hands.

[Guest Anonymous]

It's ok, not everyone agrees on what is correct. I was reading through the thread and the OP posted that it was checked on the turn and when he bet the river, everyone folded. This kind of supports my read that the original raiser got none of the flop and that Op was probably in the lead on the flop or the other two were weak. To me, poker is about making reads and getting the most out of your hand when you think your on top or can take a pot away from someone. In this case, I think a raise on the flop gives him the lead and he takes it down on the turn regardless of whether he hits two pair or not. I don't know if you can make someone fold a strong Q in 5-10, but it seems the other two players were just fishing on the turn. So my analysis is correct, he lost an extra bet from each player on the flop. The Op needs to give us his read on the two players in the hand. The better the reads, the more money you can make with your marginal and sometimes even your weak hands.

Don't be results oriented. Based on the preflop action and the flop action, there's no reason to suspect our hand is good, or that a check-raise is the best action to take.Just because it was best this time doesn't mean it was best enough to be profitable. What part of your "read" made you think 8/2 was good here? What part of your read made you think that we were good often enough to fade a 3-bet and still be profitable with the c/r? What part of your read made you think inflating the pot with a c/r to the degree that we'd HAVE to see a river on a non-disaster turn drawing superslim much of the time was a profitable play?These are the questions I have. It doesn't matter that you were right. It matters that check-raising this flop seems silly when we can take one off. In fact, wouldn't we have gotten more value out of it by just calling down, if the board bricked? Ice

[spikymarv99 0]

That is exactly my point. I have no read on the players, but the OP does. Based on a quick calculation and the OP's vague descriptions, I put the original raiser as a loose player and probably very capable of making continuation bets into dangerous boards when he has none of it (very loose and general read). There are so many other factors that I would weigh, but with no other info, I would have to bump it up to take control of the hand and re-evaluate from there (it also adds the bonus of maybe going heads-up and outplaying the guy). I think it is also correct to fold here. There is a flush draw on board and the OP has no info as to whether or not the other two players are drawing to it. If he looking to hit two pair and he does think one of them is on the draw then I would dump it. I COMPLETELY agree with you that I don't have much to go on with my reads, but then again I wasn't given much to work with; the reason is because no information is gained by just calling. What would you do if a player bets out on the turn when the third flush hits???? Do you pay off??? The OP does not have enough info to make a correct decision and will probably pay off to hope his two pair is good. What if another Ace comes on the river??? Do you fold??? You don't have enough info to know if someone has an ace. Every bet, call, raise I make is meant to gain information on top of getting value. By calling, you learn nothing and you pick up nothing on the other players. If he three-bets, you gained valueable info for one small bet that can be used later. This is why poker is great and forums such as this are so useful. There are tons of ways to play one situation and the more points of view that you get, the better player you will be in the long run. If you have time, read the 2 hands that I have posted in the limit section and give me your analysis.

[screech 0]

That is exactly my point. I have no read on the players, but the OP does. Based on a quick calculation and the OP's vague descriptions, I put the original raiser as a loose player and probably very capable of making continuation bets into dangerous boards when he has none of it (very loose and general read).

Yeah, this is about the same read I had on the guy. I had only played about 2 orbits with him, so all I really had to go on was my datamined pt stats.But I honestly don't see how raising is correct here. Sure MP3 raises with a wide range of hands, but it's not that wide. My pfr% at this level is a little over 12%, and most of my hands would connect with this board. The others would either be mid pp's or some type of gutshot draw.So most of the hands villian could have, have me in pretty bad shape. And those that do not, have tons of outs to beat me. Not only that, this guy may play back strongly with hand like KJ or any pair for that matter. So then I put in more money with the worst hand, and may end up folding the best hand in a bloated pot.Folding's not a bad option (better than raising IMO), but I think it's losing out on a bit too much. A flush draw may be out, but with only 2 opponents it's not something I should be too concerned with. The chance that I'm up agianst a flush draw/2 pair/a set means that I should discount my outs a little bit. Maybe to 4. Getting 10.4:1, I still have the correct odds to chase my draw. Not too mention the rare times villian will actually check behind on this turn if his continuation bet fails.

[JaysonWeber 0]

Screech, First of, You know you played it right pre-flop.What about the flop? I haven't read anything yet, so I am sure you adressed the flop call. You can't raise this flop... but where you really planning on calling down with 2 to act behind you with just your 2?I don't think folding is a bad option.After hitting that 8, smile to the gods that be, and check/raise. You played it right, You ussually do.What are your thoughts on just folding the flop? If it were heads-up with this player I think he is loose enough but MP1 is in the mix, so you're fighting 4 overcards here aren't you?

[Wingmaster05 0]

I'm not sure i like check raising the turn, especially if it's the tricky player betting 4th street...Do you think the LAG will three bet with Aces and a high spade? From there my guess is you call the three bet and fold UI on teh river. I like bet/call, check/call. Make sure you get a showdown with this guy.

[akishore 0]

i normally don't talk preflop, because i usually just don't give a shit, but on this hand, i just have to say...... yuck!i vehemently disagree that the call is good. it seems you've lost all respect for a) position, B) top pair value, c) connecting value and d) humility. by that last one, i mean that i believe you are significantly inflating your perception of a postflop edge (it'll take some fuckin' edge to overcome having most likely the worst equity in the field).i went through a phase where i got a little too fancy and was loosening up too much. DCWildcat gave me a slap in the face after a while and told me, "stop being so confident and start playing solid again." i found that listening to him worked out nicely.feel free to disagree, but i really can't stop thinking "yuck".aseemp.s. you know that this post isn't meant to come across as preachy/condescending/etc.

[JaysonWeber 0]

i normally don't talk preflop, because i usually just don't give a shit, but on this hand, i just have to say...... yuck!i vehemently disagree that the call is good. it seems you've lost all respect for a) position, B) top pair value, c) connecting value and d) humility. by that last one, i mean that i believe you are significantly inflating your perception of a postflop edge (it'll take some fuckin' edge to overcome having most likely the worst equity in the field).i went through a phase where i got a little too fancy and was loosening up too much. DCWildcat gave me a slap in the face after a while and told me, "stop being so confident and start playing solid again." i found that listening to him worked out nicely.feel free to disagree, but i really can't stop thinking "yuck".aseemp.s. you know that this post isn't meant to come across as preachy/condescending/etc.

Very Good Post. Not preachy/condescending at all. I have a lot of respect for screech (as you probably do to) so I gave him the benefit of the doubt on his pre-flop deicisons. Because just as you said... Why discuss them

[screech 0]

i normally don't talk preflop, because i usually just don't give a shit, but on this hand, i just have to say...... yuck!i vehemently disagree that the call is good. it seems you've lost all respect for a) position, B) top pair value, c) connecting value and d) humility. by that last one, i mean that i believe you are significantly inflating your perception of a postflop edge (it'll take some fuckin' edge to overcome having most likely the worst equity in the field).i went through a phase where i got a little too fancy and was loosening up too much. DCWildcat gave me a slap in the face after a while and told me, "stop being so confident and start playing solid again." i found that listening to him worked out nicely.feel free to disagree, but i really can't stop thinking "yuck".aseemp.s. you know that this post isn't meant to come across as preachy/condescending/etc.

I think it has more to do with overvaluing e)soooootedness. Honestly, making this call has nothing to do with my percieved preflop edge. It has to do with my immediate pot odds. I'm getting 8.4:1 to make this call (poster). That means I only have to win 10% of the time for this to be break even. I remember reading 2+2 posts where players like Clark advocate defending their BB from a raise when 2 other opponents have called with any 2 suited. I don't think I have near the edge that those great players would have, but I think as long as I don't play terribly post flop, it should be a profitable call.As for d), I think this is a good point that everyone needs to be reminded of once in a while. Even the best players in the world can't catch up if they give too much of a head start. Nothing is a better reminder than the enevitable downswing that will ensue. :-)