slow playing pockets pre-flop

[AndrewBlack 0]

Ill Limp with every pair. There are actually TONS of circumstances where ill limp with a big pair, ESPECIALLY in 1st pos.IMO. This guys play was not bad at all. He tried to limp reraise utg, no one raised so when the flop came K high, He might have decided the only way he was getting anymore chips in the pot was if he runner runnered a straight, or if he made a boat/ hit a set(which he did) He probably still should have bet the flop, regardless of what fell, just to see where he was, but his play was not bad at all.

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

brian67 wrote:Quote:You know the flop before it being dealt ? Tritz ? Is that you ?Raising preflop prevents most weak draws to entering the pot. Especially when you raise from UTG.But there is worse, yesterday (on party, where else), I get JJ on the button. UTG limps, 1 call, I raise, SB & BB fold, UTG RERAISE. I cap.Flop xxJ, cap, turn x cap, river A.I cry, AA being the only hand i had ever seen limp raised preflop, and just call his bet.He shows QQ and I get the pot.Maybe that's not the case for the .50-1 you play on party because there is no strategy there. Jamming decent pairs is not always correct pre flop. This should be obvious because it is clearly way too broad to always to jam. By the same reasoning I also don't think you should always jam AA pre flop. There is no hand that has only one way to play pre flop, everything is too situational.This is the stupidest post in history. Please take remedial math before posting any strategy on limit H'em.

Yeah you're right, it's never correct to just call with any pair pre flop, never under any circumstances.

Thats not what u said tard. It is never incorrect to jam decent pairs preflop in a 5.-1 Party game. It is not always incorrect to not jam decent pairs preflop, but you assume that your opponents are somehow thinking players and in the .5 game those are very rare. There is no need to slowplay in these games because you will get as much action as you can handle, what you do not want to do is pass up huge preflop edges while at the same time giving bad hands chances to catch up cheaply. Tell me a situation where it is incorrect to raise a decent pair preflop in a .5 game and I will gladly listen but you will not find one.P.S. The above goes for any limit you play Brian.

[AndrewBlack 0]

Grrr..... this is limit isn't it.... so no punishing rereraises when it comes back around.... = (Well if it's limit, limping utg will only give crap better odds to play and catch even if you do get a chance to 3bet. So yea, pretty iffy play there.

[brian67 0]

Thats not what u said tard. It is never incorrect to jam decent pairs preflop in a 5.-1 Party game. It is not always incorrect to not jam decent pairs preflop, but you assume that your opponents are somehow thinking players and in the .5 game those are very rare. There is no need to slowplay in these games because you will get as much action as you can handle, what you do not want to do is pass up huge preflop edges while at the same time giving bad hands chances to catch up cheaply. Tell me a situation where it is incorrect to raise a decent pair preflop in a .5 game and I will gladly listen but you will not find one.P.S. The above goes for any limit you play Brian.

Ok, just so we are clear, based on your post you are saying that against thinking players it is not always the case. I do not play on party, rarely online even anymore for that matter, and apparently you play against some pretty weak players. Three betting or capping pre flop is a good way to completely give away your hand, and in many situations this can cost you more bets on later streets. Sometimes jamming is correct, and sometimes it is correct to call and reevaluate your edge. If you are holding 99, and 5 players behind you call to see a flop, what percentage of flops will actually make you happy? It comes down to post flop play, an always fold, raise, or call mechanism with certain hands is not acceptable.

[LaydownKing 0]

Yeah his play is good. If you limp in preflop then no one can put you o na big hand and you wil lget paid off bigtime.

[case ace 0]

let's be honest... having aces through q's UTG sucks no matter what you do. You can limp with the intention of reraising at low limit tables-- cause a raise utg will just create a family pot and the call-raise could be your best way to weed out the field and show the strength of your hand. bottom line: regardless, you have to be ready to toss big pairs after the flop UTG, raised or not. youre out of position and against 3 -4 players youre never in great shape. sand bagging may work and it could be your only shot depending on the gameps. FYI your opponents play on this hand sucked, and is not my intention when trapping UTG.

[indianachris 0]

I was at the 4-8 table last night and held A 10o in BB and checked in the dark with 4 other players seeing the flop. The flop is K J 2 rainbow and it is checked all around. Turn is a 2 and the SB checks and I bet out trying to represent the duece and the player under gun is the only caller. Turn is a Q giving me the straight and I bet out and was raised. I called the raise and the other players flips over QQ for the boat.  Do you think it is right to limp in with a decent pair like QQ under the gun? Sure, he probably wants more callers in the pot but at the same time I would want to protect my hand and get the weaker hands out. I see no point in slow playing any pre-flop.

Limping under tthe gun with a big pair is something I will only do at a table I am a 100% sure that I will be raised, so I can reraise. They might not raise me, but I like to take that chance sometimes. The only reason you want to criticize the play is you got beat. The other player got lucky and made his hand, but no more lucky than you did to make a hand as well. Incidentally, he could have limped with K-K, J-J or 2-2 as well. When a player who limps in wakes up when the board has paired I have to at least give it a thought taht he might have the full house. It happens.

I am in no way bitter about losing the pot just trying to justify calling utg vs. raising. You will never hear me bitch about losing a pot because it happens. I am sure he would have got the same numbers of callers if he would have raised and get a couple extra bets in the pots and try to protect his hand. I was going to post this in the strat section but posted in the General section even though I knew that some people would just critique the stupid stuff. Thanks for a good response.

[WorkYou 0]

ok first. who cares what poeple do. people slowplaying big PP's from early. i think its personally RETARDED unless ONCE in AWHILE u do it with aces. in LIMIT i dunno i dont play LIMIT but just from watching it i dont think slowplaying anything in limit is smart. IN NL i meybe slowplay aces from early one out of ten times. and i never slowplaying KK or QQ. when if u limp in with KK or QQ then someone riases now u reraises and he reraises u. obvoiusly he has AA and u just wasted a shit load of cash.i presonally love to see someone limp in from early then i raise with aa then some fool UTG has KK and reraises.also limit sucks. i find its so difficult to protect ur chips. in NL u can atleast protect them. LIMIT IS JUST a bet bet bet game. simple. take the beats and forget about it.

[jlgosse 0]

If you don't play limit why do you pretend to know everything about it and how it works? You CAN protect your hand in a limit game, it's just much more difficult.And no, limit does not suck. I'm suprised no one has flamed you, yet.

[indianachris 0]

If you don't play limit why do you pretend to know everything about it and how it works? You CAN protect your hand in a limit game, it's just much more difficult.And no, limit does not suck. I'm suprised no one has flamed you, yet.

Besides stating the obvious I was at a 4-8 table and the skill level was poor. It wouldbe hard to protect a hand then. About the Nl and limit thing I prefer limit.

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

Thats not what u said tard. It is never incorrect to jam decent pairs preflop in a 5.-1 Party game. It is not always incorrect to not jam decent pairs preflop, but you assume that your opponents are somehow thinking players and in the .5 game those are very rare. There is no need to slowplay in these games because you will get as much action as you can handle, what you do not want to do is pass up huge preflop edges while at the same time giving bad hands chances to catch up cheaply. Tell me a situation where it is incorrect to raise a decent pair preflop in a .5 game and I will gladly listen but you will not find one.P.S. The above goes for any limit you play Brian.

Ok, just so we are clear, based on your post you are saying that against thinking players it is not always the case. I do not play on party, rarely online even anymore for that matter, and apparently you play against some pretty weak players. Three betting or capping pre flop is a good way to completely give away your hand, and in many situations this can cost you more bets on later streets. Sometimes jamming is correct, and sometimes it is correct to call and reevaluate your edge. If you are holding 99, and 5 players behind you call to see a flop, what percentage of flops will actually make you happy? It comes down to post flop play, an always fold, raise, or call mechanism with certain hands is not acceptable.

who cares if people know you have a big pocket pair. By the time you get 4 bets in preflop they will usually call all the way down any way and in most cases will be correct to do so. Thats why you get the money in preflop. They have good hands worthy of going to showdown. Once they have stuck in that much money, if they fold to you at any point in the hand it is because you're raising standards are too predicatable. You should open your range of raising and capping hands w/ a 4 bet cap. If you wait til turn to pop w/ 1 pair to many scare cards could come to force you to rethink and slowdown. Secondly you always never want to say that you had AA and only charged KK one extra sb to see the flop and turn in a huge pot.

[AndrewBlack 0]

ok first. who cares what poeple do. people slowplaying big PP's from early. i think its personally RETARDED unless ONCE in AWHILE u do it with aces. in LIMIT i dunno i dont play LIMIT but just from watching it i dont think slowplaying anything in limit is smart.  IN NL i meybe slowplay aces from early one out of ten times. and i never slowplaying KK or QQ. when if u limp in with KK or QQ then someone riases now u reraises and he reraises u. obvoiusly he has AA and u just wasted a censored load of cash.i presonally love to see someone limp in from early then i raise with aa then some fool UTG has KK and reraises.also limit sucks. i find its so difficult to protect ur chips. in NL u can atleast protect them. LIMIT IS JUST a bet bet bet game. simple. take the beats and forget about it.

M.O.R.O.N.

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

If you don't play limit why do you pretend to know everything about it and how it works? You CAN protect your hand in a limit game, it's just much more difficult.And no, limit does not suck. I'm suprised no one has flamed you, yet.

Besides stating the obvious I was at a 4-8 table and the skill level was poor. It wouldbe hard to protect a hand then. About the Nl and limit thing I prefer limit.

Limit isnt just about protecting your hand. When you have a AA orKK you want all the action you can handle. In big multiway pots you will win like 20-30 percent of the time. SInce you are sticking in only a small percentage of the money you come out way ahead because the pots you do win will be enormous. Too many weak players look at results in terms of # of pots won instead amount of money won. They cannot see poker as an aggregate game. I will not repeat and their is no need to flame the nl player who criticizes game because he is the live one in it. He will not undertstand how complex a game like limit is. He is the fish who wants people to fold weak hands to him. I want people to make mistakes. I dont make money when good players fold.

[brian67 0]

Limit is not just a bet bet bet game. My point was simply to get the most money in with the largest edge possible, and in a large multiway pot, a decent pair, say 10 10, is not always looking too great pre flop. Most of the hand will be decided on the flop, which will be unfavorable to you far more times than not. My point was simply that sometimes it is best to play decent pairs slow before the flop and then reevaluate on the flop. This largely depends on the players you are facing, which like i said goes back to all of this being situational. If you think that there are several small connectors or underpairs in the hand then yes a raise is good. I don't think using AA as an example hand is very good, because obviously the most money you get in pre flop the better. That's why i specified a decent pair, say 99 and up. You may be raising into a higher pair, and be covered by every over card.

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

I see your point, but 2 things. A. refer to "decent pairs" as middle pairs to avoid confusion" B. You are still wrong. There is nothing incorrect about raising middle pairs preflop in a multiway pot. It has nothing to do with what flop comes. You have a hand that if it hits is disguised and set to draw a monster pot if you flop a set. You might even win unimproved. Mathematically it cant be incorrect to raise with these hands preflop, as long as you can get away from an ugly board.

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

Limit is not just a bet bet bet game. My point was simply to get the most money in with the largest edge possible' date='[b'] and in a large multiway pot, a decent pair, say 10 10, is not always looking too great pre flop.[/b] Yes it is in a multiway pot. You play scared.Most of the hand will be decided on the flop, which will be unfavorable to you far more times than not. My point was simply that sometimes it is best to play decent pairs slow before the flop and then reevaluate on the flop. You are risking 2 sb with the possibility of making 30 or more. By limping you give up that expectation. We are talking about the expectation of a given play which means you only have to drag lik 15 % of these pots to make the play positive ev. You play short term poker which makes you a long term loser.This largely depends on the players you are facing, which like i said goes back to all of this being situational. If you think that there are several small connectors or underpairs in the hand then yes a raise is good. Not really. If people limp in front then raise you have the best hand. if they raise determine whether to coldcall or 3 bet. Either play is fine. EVen if you are up against a higher pair a raise isnt bad because you are forcing dead money to call increasing your odds to draw to a set.

[Ebonwoulfe 0]

The one argument I can't stand about limit is the "You lose so much to bad beats". It means the guy who said it has no idea how to play limit. For every "beat" someone puts on you, you can put a "beat" on someone else when you chase with good odds. It goes both ways.

[brian67 0]

You play short term poker which makes you a long term loser.

Those are big words my friend. I probably have more experience in limit than you do, and i probably also make more money than you (in limit poker of all things, see the irony). You simply missed the point i was making. As i said before, but you missed, limit is about getting money in when you have the edge. As i was saying you may not have the edge in a multiway pot. For the live 8 example you disputed the odds that you give draws with an extra bet, however you said that an extra bet gives you better odds to chase a set against an overpair. You must realize how wrong you are there. That is one of those examples that i was referring to where the draw is favored over you. See the difference between being forced to hit a two outer and why you created a situation where you put greater commitment into the pot and have the worst of it.

[jayistheman 0]

friend: what did you haveguy: i had small pocketsfriend: i gots me some big old pockets, stole a turkey last night.hes a genius.

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

You play short term poker which makes you a long term loser.

Those are big words my friend. I probably have more experience in limit than you do' date=' and i probably also make more money than you (in limit poker of all things, see the irony). You simply missed the point i was making. As i said before, but you missed, limit [b']is[/b] about getting money in when you have the edge. As i was saying you may not have the edge in a multiway pot. For the live 8 example you disputed the odds that you give draws with an extra bet, however you said that an extra bet gives you better odds to chase a set against an overpair. You must realize how wrong you are there. That is one of those examples that i was referring to where the draw is favored over you. See the difference between being forced to hit a two outer and why you created a situation where you put greater commitment into the pot and have the worst of it.

I seriously doubt you have played as long as me, and if you ahve and dont understand this concept your game could use alot of work. And werent you the guy trying to scam the forum for 2 bucks yesterday? And dont you understnad that the you will be getting 15 to 1 on an 8 to 1 shot if you ar eup against an overpair? And dont you know that you are weeak tight and were playing .5 yesterday on Stars with money you scammed while I was playing 15-30 live. Also, you have retreated like 5 times. First you said it is not always correct to jam aa in youyr original post. I asked you to give an example where it was incorrect you couldnt give one. The OP posted specifically about QQ and you somehow start talking about what you call decent pairs and later retreat to 99 or TT which wasnt even what the topic was about. You also used some weak metagame reason to say why you wouldnt pound Aces. I pointed out the OP was playing .5 and you say I play small limits? I dont but I was answering in context of the OP. You were trying to weasel out of your own bad reasoning. You have yet to make a plausible argument. You keep talking about expectation in relation to the possible results of one hand and have yet to use any math to support your conclusion. I will stop addressing you until you make sense. BTW, if a draw is favored over you then you should never draw to anything. WHen you draw to flush or straight you are 4 to 1 against but you draw anyway because you are usually getting the odds. In the situation you described you would definitely be getting odds and should raise for value. If your super-predicable tight opponent 3 bets in front of you and he only three bets w/ AA through JJ then dont worry about capping just fold, but if it is 2 bets to you by the same guy and his open raising range is much smaller say AQs down to 99 then 3 betting is a must. If you cant see that you should do alot more reading and a lot less talking.

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

ok so your not the scammer some other guy w/ generic name, but you have weak tight fish forever branded on your forehead. Go to 2+2 and post your little theory and see what they say. You will get the same response.

[sneakattack 0]

Dude, your playing a fixed table. Guys join in the fun with A2 on a raise. QQ's easily beat. I probably would've popped out a bet if every one checked though. Now, NL....RAISE, and...bet even with that K showing.

[brian67 0]

Wtf a scammer? Don't start accusing me of shit like that. I've been on here for a long time, and my strategy is certainly more solid than yours. Yes the OP did originally talk about QQ, and you brought up AA, i never said not to raise with aces, actually i said that the most money you can get in there pre flop is always best, that may however be with a limp raise, because it with either make the pot much larger or it will thin out the hands drawing against you. The question the OP actually asked was very general, about slow playing "pockets" pre flop. I was trying to be more specific by saying decent pairs, meaning 99 or better, because situationally small pairs get even more complex to play. But since you brought it up, how do you play 33 UTG? Would you still say to jam the flop, since you are still getting those "great" odds to draw to the set. I bet you are a huge overall loser in poker. My guess is that the .50-1 isn't working out for you. But in the future, know what you are talking about before you start going out and accusing myself or anyone else of scamming people.

[Tommyhawkers 0]

I was at the 4-8 table last night and held A 10o in BB and checked in the dark with 4 other players seeing the flop. The flop is K J 2 rainbow and it is checked all around. Turn is a 2 and the SB checks and I bet out trying to represent the duece and the player under gun is the only caller. Turn is a Q giving me the straight and I bet out and was raised. I called the raise and the other players flips over QQ for the boat.  Do you think it is right to limp in with a decent pair like QQ under the gun? Sure, he probably wants more callers in the pot but at the same time I would want to protect my hand and get the weaker hands out. I see no point in slow playing any pre-flop.

SLOWPLAYING WORKED FOR HIM, DIDN'T IT!!! HAHAHA, HE IS CLEARLY BETTER THAN YOU. WHICHEVER PLAY WORKS IS ALWAYS THE RIGHT ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! UUUUGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!seriously though, just kidding, yeah, you are right, his play was horrible at best, don't worry about donks like him. They do not like money.

HOW ABOUT A NICE COLD CAN OF SHUT THE FU-CK UP.

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

Wtf a scammer? Don't start accusing me of censored like that. I've been on here for a long time' date=' and my strategy is certainly more solid than yours. [b']Yes the OP did originally talk about QQ, and you brought up AA, i never said not to raise with aces, actually i said that the most money you can get in there pre flop is always best, that may however be with a limp raise[/b], because it with either make the pot much larger or it will thin out the hands drawing against you. The question the OP actually asked was very general, about slow playing "pockets" pre flop. I was trying to be more specific by saying decent pairs, meaning 99 or better, because situationally small pairs get even more complex to play. But since you brought it up, how do you play 33 UTG? Would you still say to jam the flop, since you are still getting those "great" odds to draw to the set. DOnt remember saying this?By the same reasoning I also don't think you should always jam AA pre flop. There is no hand that has only one way to play pre flop, everything is too situational.A. you cant answer posts right. How to play 99 is not what the OP asked, he plays .5 not me. I answered in the context of that limit not because its his limit. You are too stupid to answer in context. Pocket 3s utg? What the hell does that have to do with what we are talking about. But since you brought up I think you should read back over the op. Remember we were talking about middle pairs when there was aready action not small pairs out of position w/ no money in the pot. Do you even know what pot odds are? This is what I am talking about. You call me a long term loser and yet you cant understand basic concepts. You try to analogize to situations that are not even close to applicable to the situation at hand. Lets recap1. OP brought up limping w/ QQ? You say there is nothing wrong with, because things are situational. I laughed because we were talking about a .5 game.2. You then retreated to "decent pairs" which is your retard slang for middle pairs. I then said there is nothing wrong w/ re-raising middle pairs when there is multiway action, because you thicken the odds (please read sklansky if you know who that is).3. You then give the weak tight reasoning that you might be beat preflop which is inapplicable because you are now getting correct odds to draw to a set. We keep arguing and you retrteat by saying that you said to always jam AA preflop, which you said the opposite of. 4. At this point you have resorted to calling me losing player because you cant defend your stupid rant w/ logic.NH