cardplayer: calling raises with one pair on the turn

[princeof56k 0]

I would like to hear some comments from some of the more experienced players here about an article written by Barry Tanenbaum in Cardplayer about "Ten Common and Costly Hold'em Errors". In particular his 7th error. Here's the link and the quote I'm refering to.http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/a...5017&m_id=65570

7. Calling raises with one pair: You hold A-K and raise preflop, with only the blinds calling. On the flop of K-6-5, both blinds check and call your bet. When a 9 hits on the turn, both blinds check again, but when you bet, the small blind folds and the big blind check-raises. Should you call or fold?Unless your opponent is very tricky, you are beat. He might have a straight, set, or two pair, but in general, you are riding a dying or already dead horse, and should simply fold and wait for the next hand. I have repeatedly seen players call the turn and the river, see the winning hand tabled, and then show their own cards around looking for (nonexistent) sympathy. Do not tell people you are laying down a good hand. Sometimes you might even say, “If I only had a pair, I would call you down for sure,” as you toss your top pair, top kicker into the muck.In general, if a typical player raises you on the turn, and you have only one pair, you are in trouble. If the pot is small, you should almost always fold (call on rare occasions in games in which you see the same players over and over again, just so that people do not learn to bluff-raise you). In large pots, you might consider calling the turn in case you improve to a hand that counterfeits your opponent’s two pair (if that’s what he has), but fold on the river if you fail to improve. And if the pot is huge, you might have to call all the way on the slim chance that you have the best hand.Most of the time, though, if you hold only one pair and are raised on the turn, calling is an error you can easily avoid.

In the situation I'm just about always calling this down. And in general when I have TP and a very good kicker I end up calling down when someone raises me on the turn. Is that a massive leak in my game?

[Actuary 3]

if u do it in small pots yes.

[princeof56k 0]

Do you apply the same reasoning to being raised on the river?

[screech 0]

Do you apply the same reasoning to being raised on the river?

Sort of. On the river you compare the chances of you having the best hand to the pot odds being offered. In small pots, the pot odds are significantly less.

[princeof56k 0]

Ok thanks. I guess I've always been worried that by folding people will just raise on the turn or river trying to bluff me out of the pot. I probably incorrectly assumed my opponents would be paying attention.Plus, I get confused between the folding-to-a-raise logic and the dont-fold-too-many-winners logic.

[Actuary 3]

Prince,I struggle with callnig turn raises.I want to see their cards.IT's a tough line to find and its always moving...depends on pot size, reads, your hand of course, the board...if you read like screech, its easy!

[akishore 0]

that is horrendously weak/tight advice.aseem

[Actuary 3]

that is horrendously weak/tight advice.aseem

what?Folding Top Pair to a turn raise in small pots against str8 forward opponents?

[akishore 0]

that is horrendously weak/tight advice.aseem

what?Folding Top Pair to a turn raise in small pots against str8 forward opponents?

you're often *not* beat, e.g. some players play KQ this way.you also often have the odds to call and river a better two pair (counterfeit their's, etc.).against the most straightforward of opponents who *only raise two pair or better here*, a case can be made for folding, but it just isn't often the best option, especially online.aseem

[Actuary 3]

u play more lags than mecalling turn raises in small pots against normal Party players at .5/1 is -EV...But I do it sometimes so as to not look to easy

[princeof56k 0]

that is horrendously weak/tight advice.aseem

OK, so are you usually calling him down (unless he is one of the most predictable players you've ever seen)?And BTW, I'm now confused about what to do. I always respect akishores advice, but the guy writing the article in Cardplayer isnt exactly a bad player. Anyone else have an opinion?

a case can be made for folding, but it just isn't often the best option, especially online.

So are you more likely to fold this in B&M casino (and to what degree are you more likely)? I do play live at a casino more often (since I've moved). I've noticed that the play there is much more passive with much less raising than online. A raise on the turn pratically means the nuts. It might be my imagination, but at least it seems that way.

[Egarim 0]

His reasoning is pretty good for mid-high stakes vs very solid players.I have a very good example of this type of hand which i analyze here. http://www.livejournal.com/users/egarim10/1351.htmlI never read his article before, but came to the same conclusion. Of course, every situation will be different and u have to figure out when folding is right.

[avsfan 0]

Its good standard advice. All he is saying is if you show strength preflop and on the flop. When an obvious draw hits on the turn and a standard player shows strength back at you. You should be concerned about the draw, two pair, and sets. Problem is non-standard players see you making lay downs like that they may attempt to steal from you there*. The same logic applies to river raises*.Aseem may say its weak tight advice. I just think it is Barry teaching the status quo.*See kdawg and wrto strat hands. :-)

[Whatever 1]

Aseem also has very good table selection so against looser players this advice is weak/tight (duh).

[BeanGW 0]

I tend to agree with Aseem on this one. Against most players in SSHE games, folding TPTK on a fairly uncoordinated board is just plain lousy advice.

[Briguy 0]

I don't know that this is such bad advice. On Party 2/4, I'm often getting killed for 2 BB when I call turn C/R's down with TPTK (and without any room for improvement to a straight or a flush). It's probably my biggest postflop leak, and I know that I do it because I *could* have the best hand. Afterwards, as the pot floats away from me, I think "of course he made his straight. He couldn't C/R me with anything less!" There's much merit to folding in small pots, except possibly against LAGs.Against calling stations, mice, and rocks, I'm thinking you should fold 90% of the time (again, unless you have a redraw). Against TAGs and LAGs, maybe not so much, as you often find yourself playing the sheriff against tricky opponents (or true maniacs).

[Actuary 3]

My understanding is raises on uncoordinated board are to be respected more, not less. That is, your opponent is not likely bluffing then.

[Gene zzz 0]

Will wouldn't you think that he was to dumb to plan out that whole series of bets? I would, that is rare play to pull that on purpose. I would fold up sure but it could be your bankroll if you are to slim then you want to call more and thus win now, if you got a good pack at home you can fold up on the odds alone, but alway keep track of that thing cause if you want to know you got to get esp or do some testing science you might say. I call call call then think I am losing it goes hand in hand . You cann't afford to loose that chance so you spend to see what you don't see. bye

[avsfan 0]

Will

Which one is Will? Maybe you meant well. Don't trip me out like that.

[Egarim 0]

Will wouldn't you think that he was to dumb to plan out that whole series of bets? I would, that is rare play to pull that on purpose. I would fold up sure but it could be your bankroll if you are to slim then you want to call more and thus win now, if you got a good pack at home you can fold up on the odds alone, but alway keep track of that thing cause if you want to know you got to get esp or do some testing science you might say. I call call call then think I am losing it goes hand in hand . You cann't afford to loose that chance so you spend to see what you don't see. bye

I wish i had a link to an audio clip of the simpsons where the fat comic book guy says "Worst movie ever."

[Gene zzz 0]

No I meant will its a form of speech , short for you need wiil power and control but seriously did the player who called feel any remorse? The shame must be incredable.

[Actuary 3]

Will wouldn't you think that he was to dumb to plan out that whole series of bets? I would, that is rare play to pull that on purpose. I would fold up sure but it could be your bankroll if you are to slim then you want to call more and thus win now, if you got a good pack at home you can fold up on the odds alone, but alway keep track of that thing cause if you want to know you got to get esp or do some testing science you might say. I call call call then think I am losing it goes hand in hand . You cann't afford to loose that chance so you spend to see what you don't see. bye

did u post on the wrong thread ?

[rog 0]

Will wouldn't you think that he was to dumb to plan out that whole series of bets? I would, that is rare play to pull that on purpose. I would fold up sure but it could be your bankroll if you are to slim then you want to call more and thus win now, if you got a good pack at home you can fold up on the odds alone, but alway keep track of that thing cause if you want to know you got to get esp or do some testing science you might say. I call call call then think I am losing it goes hand in hand . You cann't afford to loose that chance so you spend to see what you don't see. bye

Translation anyone?

[avsfan 0]

Will wouldn't you think that he was to dumb to plan out that whole series of bets? I would, that is rare play to pull that on purpose. I would fold up sure but it could be your bankroll if you are to slim then you want to call more and thus win now, if you got a good pack at home you can fold up on the odds alone, but alway keep track of that thing cause if you want to know you got to get esp or do some testing science you might say. I call call call then think I am losing it goes hand in hand . You cann't afford to loose that chance so you spend to see what you don't see. bye

Translation anyone?

Aleins are invading fcp.

[Actuary 3]

Will wouldn't you think that he was to dumb to plan out that whole series of bets? I would, that is rare play to pull that on purpose. I would fold up sure but it could be your bankroll if you are to slim then you want to call more and thus win now, if you got a good pack at home you can fold up on the odds alone, but alway keep track of that thing cause if you want to know you got to get esp or do some testing science you might say. I call call call then think I am losing it goes hand in hand . You cann't afford to loose that chance so you spend to see what you don't see. bye

Translation anyone?

this didn't help??

No I meant will its a form of speech , short for you need wiil power and control but seriously did the player who called feel any remorse? The shame must be incredable.