how'd i play this? (lhe)

[Snowman 0]

BB is very weak. He sees almost all flops. I have also seen him bet weak hands and bluff with nothing a couple of times.SB hasn't played many hands, no other read.Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is MP3 with [Jd], [Ks]. 5 folds, SB calls, BB calls.Flop: (6 SB) [Qh], [Jh], [3h] (3 players)SB checks, BB bets, BB calls, Hero calls.This looks like the kind of flop BB may bluff at so I raise, to isolate and for info. Didn't work. Getting good odds to call the 3-bet, but I'm not sure what my outs are, if any. Should I have folded?Turn: (7.50 BB) [Js] (3 players)SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls.That's the best card I can hope for, but still unsure where I'm at.River: (10.50 BB) [8s] (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, ....Good value bet?

[Actuary 3]

Raise the turndefnite call the flop..after the 3-bet..your raise is fine, I think..for reasons stated. No-one showed pre flop strength either.Only a few hands are ahead of you on the turn..very likely yuo are ahead.edit: I missed the fl;ush..still same advice..not sure what to do if 3-bet on the turn....wait yes I do..call..pot too big then.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I think you need to raise the turn there. Define your hand now! If 3-bet, call it down UI on river. 8)

[dimseven 0]

Looks good if You know BB isnt betting with a Q. I'd call the turn too after the SB 3 bet and then bet out turn. I mean, on the turn You don't know that he's going to check the river. I'd like to hear others as what I would do might be "weak tight".

[BeanGW 0]

I play it the same as the OP. Raising this turn into two villains after the flop check/three-bet from the SB could be hazardous to your health.With three to a flush on the board, neither SB nor BB needed to show any PF aggression with a hand like 6-7h, K-10h, etc. etc. I think you have plenty of FB outs to make the call (unless one of them has Q-J), but I don't think raising is going to do much for you here. You are either way ahead to a flush draw, or way behind to a made flush. I'm pretty sure calling down is the correct approach.

[tdmlb24 0]

Raise the turn, Bet the river

[greatwhite 0]

Ok...first of all I think your raise preflop with KJos was marginal. I liked the way you played the flop, but you have to raise the turn. You hit one of your few outs. I would think you would be ahead here so make the people pay to catch a flush. The SB will have an ace high flush draw like 90% of the time here. The other times they will have a flush already and God only knows what the BB has. He most likely has a ten high flush draw or some marginal hand he shouldn't be playing anyway. Of course you should bet the river. No one has shown any interest in their hand. Good Luck! :-)

[Rocketwadster 0]

Ok...first of all I think your raise preflop with KJos was marginal. I liked the way you played the flop, but you have to raise the turn. You hit one of your few outs. I would think you would be ahead here so make the people pay to catch a flush. The SB will have an ace high flush draw like 90% of the time here. The other times they will have a flush already and God only knows what the BB has. He most likely has a ten high flush draw or some marginal hand he shouldn't be playing anyway. Of course you should bet the river. No one has shown any interest in their hand. Good Luck! :-)

When first into a pot from MP, put pressure on the blinds by raising there. Raise of fold, never just call IMO 8)

[creepy20 0]

In mp3 with everybody folding to you its not smart to not raise KJos. I raise everytime there.flop play seems find because of your reads.I'm raising the turn here. he could of 3 bet the flop hoping for a free card..he probably has A to the flush or paired up with a flush draw...no idea what BB has. anyways I don't think you played the hand poorly, i think this could be played either way. Oh and I am definitely betting the riv. nh

[BeanGW 0]

For those of you arguing to raise the turn, how do you respond to a three-bet... and then how do you play the river? If it's a blank? If it's a heart?I still absolutely believe calling is the better play here. After the check/three bet, I think it's better to play it safe. Raising when there is a possibility that we are far behind would be chip-spewing unnecessarily. I think y'all know I'm not one to be scared of monsters in the closet, but I don't think raising does much for you here when you are way ahead. Heads-up, raising for a free showdown might be the better play, but here I think that calling the turn is the more +EV move.

[Snowman 0]

For those of you arguing to raise the turn, how do you respond to a three-bet... and then how do you play the river? If it's a blank? If it's a heart?

I'd like to hear this too. I wouldn't have liked a 3-bet. That's why I called.

[Sysvr4 0]

For the record: I call the flop 3-bet and raise the turn. If you're 3-bet on the turn, call and check call the river UI.

For those of you arguing to raise the turn, how do you respond to a three-bet... and then how do you play the river? If it's a blank? If it's a heart?

If it's a heart, check/call or check/fold.If it's a blank, bet for value, baby! Especially true since our villain checks the river blank here.We're ahead here MUCH more often than we're behind. What limping hand are you afraid of here other than two hearts or 33? It's much more likely the SB is 3-betting the flop with a pair and a heart draw.

I still absolutely believe calling is the better play here. After the check/three bet, I think it's better to play it safe. Raising when there is a possibility that we are far behind would be chip-spewing unnecessarily.I think y'all know I'm not one to be scared of monsters in the closet, but I don't think raising does much for you here when you are way ahead.

There's almost always a possibility we're far behind, but I can think of many hands the SB would 3-bet that we're ahead of here. Certainly don't cap the turn, but raise here for value.Jeff

[Rocketwadster 0]

For those of you arguing to raise the turn, how do you respond to a three-bet... and then how do you play the river? If it's a blank? If it's a heart?I still absolutely believe calling is the better play here. After the check/three bet, I think it's better to play it safe. Raising when there is a possibility that we are far behind would be chip-spewing unnecessarily. I think y'all know I'm not one to be scared of monsters in the closet, but I don't think raising does much for you here when you are way ahead. Heads-up, raising for a free showdown might be the better play, but here I think that calling the turn is the more +EV move.

that screams of weak-tight to me. like I said in my post above, raise the turn, if 3-bet, call it down UI. If a heart comes, Clarkmeister? :?

[Snowman 0]

Also, am I mad for even thinking about folding to the fold 3-bet? I feel I can count at most 4 outs (jacks and non-heart king). I have 14:1, which is good enough for that, but I most likely have to dodge a heart and I'm not sure a king is good.

[Actuary 3]

I think having 2 opponents makes the turn raise for value.We are good here more than 33% of the time.And both likely call for 1 more.

[greatwhite 0]

Ok...first of all I think your raise preflop with KJos was marginal. I liked the way you played the flop, but you have to raise the turn. You hit one of your few outs. I would think you would be ahead here so make the people pay to catch a flush. The SB will have an ace high flush draw like 90% of the time here. The other times they will have a flush already and God only knows what the BB has. He most likely has a ten high flush draw or some marginal hand he shouldn't be playing anyway. Of course you should bet the river. No one has shown any interest in their hand. Good Luck! :-)

When first into a pot from MP, put pressure on the blinds by raising there. Raise of fold, never just call IMO 8)

Putting pressure on the blinds is more of a no limit strategy then a limit. Let's not forget there is still 4 people in front of you though. I don't think raising is a bad play preflop, but I'm just saying how I would play it, especially with limited information. However, if this was a no limit or pot limit hand I would raise everytime with it. KJ is a trap hand that makes me very nervous when I get it though.

[Actuary 3]

Putting pressure on the blinds is more of a no limit strategy then a limit. Let's not forget there is still 4 people in front of you though. I don't think raising is a bad play preflop, but I'm just saying how I would play it, especially with limited information. However, if this was a no limit or pot limit hand I would raise everytime with it. KJ is a trap hand that makes me very nervous when I get it though.

preflop open raise is automatic.raise>>>>>>{call>fold (close)}Putting pressure on the blinds is more of a no limit strategy then a limit. I did not know that...hmmm....not sure about "more or less" but it's important in Limit, too.

[greatwhite 0]

For those of you arguing to raise the turn, how do you respond to a three-bet... and then how do you play the river? If it's a blank? If it's a heart?I still absolutely believe calling is the better play here. After the check/three bet, I think it's better to play it safe. Raising when there is a possibility that we are far behind would be chip-spewing unnecessarily. I think y'all know I'm not one to be scared of monsters in the closet, but I don't think raising does much for you here when you are way ahead. Heads-up, raising for a free showdown might be the better play, but here I think that calling the turn is the more +EV move.

I don't. If they 3 bet then you should just call the turn. Then you could call the river to one bet or raise if there are no bets. You only have to be right a little more than 1/3 of the time. :wink:

[BeanGW 0]

that screams of weak-tight to me. like I said in my post above, raise the turn, if 3-bet, call it down UI. If a heart comes, Clarkmeister? :?

You could only do that if you were first to act... not to mention that against two villains I think it would be better to spend that money at the on a beer.I dunno, maybe I'm reverting back to more of a weak-tight play. When I get check-three-bet on a board like this, I tighten up. Some other hands he might have could include J-Q, J-3, K-10 with a heart... there are a lot of hands where our edge is either nonexistant, or pretty darn small.I want to see the showdown, and I'd hate to be 3-bet, so I save the bet for the river.

[econ_tim 0]

there are a lot of response, so this is probably already coveredbut raise the turneven when you aren't ahead you have ten outs to beat a flush

[Actuary 3]

Bean:we come to opposing conclusion based on number of villans.i say raise turn (even more so) because we have 2; while you seem to say 2 villans makes calling even more better.This is a general question: When do we want more villans to justify our play?For example..in this case..I'm not sure we are 50% to win..but I bet we are better than 33%....Sure our % to win is worse with 2 opponents, but not enough worse, imo. What types of hands/boards do you think make you have adequate equity over multiplae vs less opponents? See what I mean.( I can't stop posting..my questions are too good! )

[Snowman 0]

Bean:we come to opposing conclusion based on number of villans.i say raise turn (even more so) because we have 2; while you seem to say 2 villans makes calling even more better.This is a general question: When do we want more villans to justify our play?For example..in this case..I'm not sure we are 50% to win..but I bet we are better than 33%....Sure our % to win is worse with 2 opponents, but not enough worse, imo. What types of hands/boards do you think make you have adequate equity over multiplae vs less opponents? See what I mean.( I can't stop posting..my questions are too good! )

What if SB 3-bets and BB folds?However, I think this argument makes a raise the best play:

but raise the turneven when you aren't ahead you have ten outs to beat a flush

[Actuary 3]

well yes..And its' impleid in all argumetns to raise..damn..once again another poater gets credit!..not me... whAAAA WHAAAAA :cry: :cry: :cry:

[BeanGW 0]

OK... well, I'm outnumbered, so I can concede that raising might be the better play here. And Tim makes a good point about all our FB outs. To answer Actuary's question: After further analysis, what I was discussing doesn't really apply here... But... Being more aggressive heads-up isn't due to the equity edge, but rather the fold equity against a single villain. Sometimes, the percentage of the time a single tight villain will fold a better hand, when added to the outs you have to win the hand outright, are what make a bet +EV.This is especially true in a small pot, where you don't mind folding to a raise when you are way behind.

[Actuary 3]

thanks Bean.I see what you meanYou speak of fold equity..and my mind was only on value betting....Seeing a bigger picture now.