Official 2010 Off Season Thread

[Zach6668 513]

His cap hit is only small because the Canucks circumvented the cap...Btw, you're coming off as absurdly abrasive, and I'm not really sure why.

[SBriand 4]

9 goalies with a 5m cap hit is clearly what I was talking about. Maybe we should get Huet, he's a star... Not only is his cap hit small compared to other starters (9th in a field of 30 is a pretty good price), the salary cap keeps going up so down the road his cap hit will have a smaller impact. Also, why is it a bad thing we have him locked up long term. Maybe we could get Brodeur for a year before he retires because he's like 80.I love how most non-Canuck fans get all pissy about this. Maybe one year your team will be in the running for another cup. Maybe. Probably. Right? Hope you do it in the next couple of years because your entire team is getting pretty old. (I assume you're a Detroit fan given your location)

lol, at least I will know what it is like to have my team win a cup or...three. Good luck on getting that first one kiddo.

[Fenxis 99]

Are you implying that people hated him back then too? I never heard any thing this bad. They can't stand how he's hyped here, and the "LUUUUUU" chants when the puck goes anywhere near him, which is understandable. But I never heard people saying "LOL WORST GOALIE IN THE WORLD LOLOLOLONGO" back then.

Well Millbury ended up trading him for a bag of pucks to Florida (Parrish/Kvasha) and the Vancouver trade was again for a bag of pucks (Bertuzzi) so he must have some flaws. The knock on Luongo in Florida was the lack of playoff victories etc.. pretty much the same questions is as now. But you would know that if you were a fan of hockey and not the Canucks. Quite frankly, since I live out in the East, I very rarely stay watching the late game on the CBC so in fact, I don't know / care / etc about any Luongo 'overhype'.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

I don't dislike Luongo or The Canucks. I dislike giving long term big money contracts to goalies who are in their 30's coming off the worst season of their career.We'll see whether he continues to decline or bounces back and then declines as he ages.

[Rawrr 0]

His cap hit is only small because the Canucks circumvented the cap...Btw, you're coming off as absurdly abrasive, and I'm not really sure why.

And? I don't see how this is relevant to his level of skill... It's all about the cap hit now. We never had owners who would spend money on players, and now we do, so all that is really relevant is the cap it. Just like with Hossa and the Hawks / Pronger with the Flyers, but nobody talks about those. I am abrasive because people just love to bash Luongo. I don't think hes the best goalie in the NHL, but he is certainly worth top 10 money because he is a top 10 goalie. I am also from HFBoards, if you ever posted there, you would understand.

lol, at least I will know what it is like to have my team win a cup or...three. Good luck on getting that first one kiddo.

We had 2 cup runs, one of which we deserved to be there (94) and came close. Then we had owners who never put money into the team so we never got far. However, we are a Canadian team, so we can't tank to rebuild through the draft like Pittsburgh or Chicago. Canucks have been around how long? I think Toronto has gone longer without a cup than us, so it doesn't really matter. A few years ago we weren't even a playoff team, and now we have a strong team, we rebuilt nicely.

Well Millbury ended up trading him for a bag of pucks to Florida (Parrish/Kvasha) and the Vancouver trade was again for a bag of pucks (Bertuzzi) so he must have some flaws. The knock on Luongo in Florida was the lack of playoff victories etc.. pretty much the same questions is as now. But you would know that if you were a fan of hockey and not the Canucks. Quite frankly, since I live out in the East, I very rarely stay watching the late game on the CBC so in fact, I don't know / care / etc about any Luongo 'overhype'.

I think the knock on Florida is the lack of playoff victories... Luongo was solid in the St Louis series last year, Kings series this year, stole the Dallas series for us a few years ago, and played somewhat solid in this year's Chicago series. I mean he had a bad game in the LA series, and a bad one in the Chicago series. Your goalie has to be great, but we were playing Nolan Baumgartner for god's sakes, I mean there is only so much one man can do! People seem to have a selective memory, they only remember the few games where he got lit up, but never remember the games he stole for us. Also, I am a fan of hockey as a whole. I grew up playing and watching hockey when we had horrible owners who wouldn't spend money on players, so it was hard to be only a Canucks fan. I love the Red Wings, Canadiens and to some extent the Senators. However, I believe the western conference is a much better conference than the east, so I rarely watch eastern games since I have better things to do at 4 PM.

I don't dislike Luongo or The Canucks. I dislike giving long term big money contracts to goalies who are in their 30's coming off the worst season of their career.We'll see whether he continues to decline or bounces back and then declines as he ages.

I don't like the long term contract either. However, you have to understand this contract was signed before this year, which was his worst season. I am not sure if it was signed the previous year, or the year before.

[SBriand 4]

I am also from HFBoards

now it makes sense

[Rawrr 0]

now it makes sense

After dealing with those people, I have no patience left

[Zach6668 513]

I am abrasive because people just love to bash Luongo. I don't think hes the best goalie in the NHL, but he is certainly worth top 10 money because he is a top 10 goalie. I am also from HFBoards, if you ever posted there, you would understand.

This isn't HF boards tho... this place is (relatively) civil, and most of the regulars here are friendly.Nothing wrong with new blood, just don't assume we're the idiots from HFBoards.

[strategy 4]

We had 2 cup runs, one of which we deserved to be there (94) and came close. Then we had owners who never put money into the team so we never got far. However, we are a Canadian team, so we can't tank to rebuild through the draft like Pittsburgh or Chicago. Canucks have been around how long? I think Toronto has gone longer without a cup than us, so it doesn't really matter. A few years ago we weren't even a playoff team, and now we have a strong team, we rebuilt nicely.

your posts seem like a 'stream of consciousness' kind of thing. a REALLY insecure stream of consciousness.

[Rawrr 0]

your posts seem like a 'stream of consciousness' kind of thing. a REALLY insecure stream of consciousness.

I have no idea what that even means.

[leftygolfer 7]

9 goalies with a 5m cap hit is clearly what I was talking about. Maybe we should get Huet, he's a star... Not only is his cap hit small compared to other starters (9th in a field of 30 is a pretty good price), the salary cap keeps going up so down the road his cap hit will have a smaller impact. Also, why is it a bad thing we have him locked up long term. Maybe we could get Brodeur for a year before he retires because he's like 80.I love how most non-Canuck fans get all pissy about this. Maybe one year your team will be in the running for another cup. Maybe. Probably. Right? Hope you do it in the next couple of years because your entire team is getting pretty old. (I assume you're a Detroit fan given your location)

He's a closet Hawks fan :)Strat could have played goalie for the Canadian Olympic team this year and still won. Luuuuuuuu is done.

[digitalmonkey 929]

your posts seem like a 'stream of consciousness' kind of thing. a REALLY insecure stream of consciousness.

LOL

[Dubey 1,035]

ooo, drama in the off season thread. We must be getting close to September.I used to be a huge Luongo fan. I think he may have been the best goalie in the league a few years ago, or at least top 3. I think he has lost something though. I see him making fundamental mistakes that he didn't make before. He made some really weird plays in the olympics, like giving up his post in a bad spot, and leaving angles blatantly uncovered; It cost us a few goals. Goaltending is a fickle business. I think Luongo has the tools to be one of the top 3 goalies in the league, but his confidence is low right now, and he has not played like an elite goalie in the last two years, in my opinion. Elite or not, it is a terrible contract. The number of goalies that actually continue to play top level hockey in their thirties is very very small. To pay any goalie premium money until they are 43 is asinine.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

ooo, drama in the off season thread. We must be getting close to September.I used to be a huge Luongo fan. I think he may have been the best goalie in the league a few years ago, or at least top 3. I think he has lost something though. I see him making fundamental mistakes that he didn't make before. He made some really weird plays in the olympics, like giving up his post in a bad spot, and leaving angles blatantly uncovered; It cost us a few goals. Goaltending is a fickle business. I think Luongo has the tools to be one of the top 3 goalies in the league, but his confidence is low right now, and he has not played like an elite goalie in the last two years, in my opinion. Elite or not, it is a terrible contract. The number of goalies that actually continue to play top level hockey in their thirties is very very small. To pay any goalie premium money until they are 43 is asinine.

And what do you know about NHL goaltending ?

[serge 904]

And what do you know about NHL goaltending ?

LOL nice one Bob..BTW here is to hoping Devan gets a Luongo type deal in the next few years that will circumvent the cap..

[Dubey 1,035]

LOL nice one Bob..BTW here is to hoping Devan gets a Luongo type deal in the next few years that will circumvent the cap..

lol. umm, 15 years, 12 million dollars. 0.8M cap hit?

[serge 904]

lol. umm, 15 years, 12 million dollars. 0.8M cap hit?

Lol..thats a contract that we have never seen..

[Rawrr 0]

Here's a nice article I found:

Buried within arbitrator Richard Bloch's twenty-page decision regarding Ilya Kovalchuk's contract situation, there was a mention of Vancouver goalie Roberto Luongo.Bloch implied that Luongo's recently signed 12-year, $62 million extension could still be rejected by the NHL.Such a decision would make the all-star goalie an unrestricted free agent, a prospect that at first glance would seemingly terrify the Canucks faithful.Or maybe not.Bloch's decision has set off a firestorm of debate regarding whether a rejection of Luongo's contract would actually be a good thing for Vancouver's future.The main argument? Luongo is overrated, and overpaid for his current production.NHL.fanhouse.com hockey blogger Monte Stewart even posited that the Canucks would be better off with former Chicago goalie Antti Niemi or young prospect Cory Schneider as starting goalie, due to their smaller cap hits.These type of arguments have flooded the hockey blogosphere over the past week.So is Roberto Luongo not actually an elite NHL goalie? Would the Canucks be better off using his $5.33 million annual cap hit on another part of the roster?The answer is a resounding no to both questions. Roberto Luongo is still a fantastic goalie.The main arguments against Luongo are as follows. First, that he is a choker in high-pressure situations. Second, that his current statistical numbers do not match his reputation. And third, that paying top dollar for a goalie is not a blueprint for championships in the "New NHL".Let's take a look at these arguments, one at a time.No. 1 - Luongo is a choker.Luongo has been in three postseasons as a member of the Vancouver Canucks, and the Canucks have yet to win a championship.Because Luongo is the highest profile player on the team, their inability to break through has been blamed on him. Their misguided decision to name him captain likely has also contributed to criticism, as his leadership ability is constantly called into question as well.In addition, he's had a few particularly terrible playoff games that have cost the Canucks.But let's take a look at Luongo's actual playoff statistics and compare them to his regular season numbers.Career Regular Season Statistics: 2.57 GAA, .918 save percentageCareer Playoff Statistics: 2.46 GAA, .919 save percentageSo, Luongo actually puts up slightly better numbers in the postseason than the regular season. Definitely a sign of a choker.The numbers are a bit inflated by his stellar 2006-07 postseason. But Luongo has played very well against all opponents in the postseason, with the exception of one: Chicago.In five out of his 12 playoff games versus the Blackhawks, Luongo has allowed five goals or more. He certainly struggles against Chicago in the playoffs.But is that a result of Luongo choking, or simply because Chicago has been a better team than Vancouver over the last two seasons?The "Luongo vs. Blackhawks" matchup is very similar to Peyton Manning's struggles against the New England Patriots. Manning couldn't beat them, and was labeled a choker.Then, the Colts built a better, deeper overall roster than the Patriots, and Manning beat them.Expect the same to happen to Luongo, especially now that Chicago has been ravaged by cap hell.Oh, and by the way: he just earned a gold medal as starting goaltender for Canada in the Olympics. Seems to me a true choker would have found a way to screw that up.No. 2 - Luongo's stats aren't that impressive.This one actually has some validity. Luongo's 2003-04 was his best season as a professional goalie, as he finished with a .930 save percentage for the Florida Panthers. Considering the quality of his defense in front of him, it may have been one of the best seasons by a goalie in recent hockey history.He has not matched that number since, averaging a .917 save percentage in his next five seasons.His .913 save percentage in 2009-10 was his lowest since his rookie year.However, what Luongo brings to the table as an elite goalie is consistency.Since the lockout, Luongo has the fourth best save percentage of goalies that have started each season for their respective teams. He only trails fellow elite goalies Tomas Vokoun, Henrik Lundqvist, and Martin Brodeur.Luongo has not led the league in save percentage once since the lockout. But his value comes from his ability to put up borderline-elite statistics year after year. No one worries about Luongo having a "Niklas Backstrom circa 2009" type season. And don't forget, the Canucks' defense is far from stellar.In fact, to further the Peyton Manning analogy, Manning has not led the NFL in yards, QB Rating, or touchdowns since 2006. But he is still considered the preeminent passer of his generation because he is always in the top five or 10 in each of those categories.One year wonders may put up better numbers on occasion. But he's always near the top.The same goes for Luongo.No. 3 - Teams with high-paid goalies don't win Stanley Cups in the post-lockout NHL.This has become a particularly popular theory recently, with both the Chicago Blackhawks and Philadelphia Flyers riding cheap goalies to the Stanley Cup Finals.Hockey fans have noticed that teams with the highest profile goalies, like New Jersey, Vancouver, Calgary, and the New York Rangers, have been unable to win championships in the post-lockout NHL.The teams that win cups, the theory proposes, did not waste big money on a goalie, and with the extra cash were able to build a deeper overall roster that allowed them to win the cup.It seems logical. It's also completely and totally wrong.Saving money on a goalie and using the extra cap space on defense could very well work. The problem is, the teams that supposedly succeeded with a cheap goalie actually spent lots of money on the position. They just weren't using their most expensive goalie in the playoffs.Take the most recent champions, the Chicago Blackhawks.Antti Niemi was a huge bargain at a $826,875 cap hit. However, Chicago did not use the money they didn't spend on a franchise goalie to improve their defense. They were already spending it on their backup goalie, Cristobal Huet, who has a mammoth $5.625 million cap hit.The 2007-08 champion Detroit Red Wings were paying backup Dominik Hasek more than playoff starter Chris Osgood. Same with the 2005-06 champs, the Carolina Hurricanes, who paid Martin Gerber more than playoff hero Cam Ward to sit on the bench.The other two post-lockout champs, the Pittsburgh Penguins and Anaheim Ducks, spent about $5 million in cap space to pay their franchise goalies during their Stanley Cup seasons.In fact, on average, Stanley Cup champions in the cap era have spent $4.754 million on the goaltender position. Makes Luongo's $5.33 million cap hit a bit less difficult to swallow, doesn't it?It's certainly possible to win a cup with a cheap starting goalie, as teams like Chicago, Detroit, and Carolina have proved in the salary cap era. However, those teams did not win it all because of some gigantic savings at the goalie position.The Canucks have failed to win the Cup, not because of an albatross of a goalie contract, but because they have not had a strong enough roster to compete with the true elite teams in the Western Conference.Luongo is basically being paid market value for an elite NHL goaltender, a title which he still deserves. And with the Canucks improving their defensive depth in the offseason, this could finally be the year that he sheds the undeserved "choker" label once and for all.

Don't get me wrong, such a long term contract is absurd, but the contract length is the only questionable part of the contract, not the figure or who's signing it.Original Article - http://bleacherreport.com/articles/435249-..._medium=twitter

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Here's a nice article I found:Don't get me wrong, such a long term contract is absurd, but the contract length is the only questionable part of the contract, not the figure or who's signing it.

If you're going to quote from a long article like that please include the link it came from for attribution.http://bleacherreport.com/articles/435249-..._medium=twitter

[Rawrr 0]

If you're going to quote from a long article like that please include the link it came from for attribution.http://bleacherreport.com/articles/435249-..._medium=twitter

Yeah, I copied the article and closed the window, and then realized I didn't have the link or history turned on D: Thanks for it

[Fenxis 99]

"No. 1 - Luongo is a choker.Oh, and by the way: he just earned a gold medal as starting goaltender for Canada in the Olympics. Seems to me a true choker would have found a way to screw that up."A strawman argument I know... but saying that Luongo should be praised for not ****ing up the olympics (arguably he was borderline) despite having the strongest squad present should not constitute as proof that he should be considered 'elite'."No. 2 - Luongo's stats aren't that impressive.Since the lockout, Luongo has the fourth best save percentage of goalies that have started each season for their respective teams. He only trails fellow elite goalies Tomas Vokoun, Henrik Lundqvist, and Martin Brodeur."Good contract now.. but in 9 years? When you have Scheider in the wings?"No. 3 - Teams with high-paid goalies don't win Stanley Cups in the post-lockout NHL.In fact, on average, Stanley Cup champions in the cap era have spent $4.754 million on the goaltender position. Makes Luongo's $5.33 million cap hit a bit less difficult to swallow, doesn't it?"Totally misses the point... the point was that you need to have players on cheap contracts; such as Anaheim in '07, Chicago in '10. The fact that teams have expensive goaltenders sitting on the bench during the playoffs is ok?

[Rawrr 0]

Responses in bold.

"No. 1 - Luongo is a choker.Oh, and by the way: he just earned a gold medal as starting goaltender for Canada in the Olympics. Seems to me a true choker would have found a way to screw that up."A strawman argument I know... but saying that Luongo should be praised for not ****ing up the olympics (arguably he was borderline) despite having the strongest squad present should not constitute as proof that he should be considered 'elite'.I don't think anyone said that because he won the gold medal, he should automatically be considered elite. The point made was that if he were a choker in big games, he would have lost that game for us, which he didn't do. People praise Crosby for his goal after being invisible in the olympics, but nobody mentions Luongo's save after Niedermayer coughed up the puck to give them a breakaway in overtime."No. 2 - Luongo's stats aren't that impressive.Since the lockout, Luongo has the fourth best save percentage of goalies that have started each season for their respective teams. He only trails fellow elite goalies Tomas Vokoun, Henrik Lundqvist, and Martin Brodeur."Good contract now.. but in 9 years? When you have Scheider in the wings?I even said at the end of my post that nobody should be disputing that the length of the contract is absurd, only that people saying Luongo is an awful goalie are living in a fantasy world."No. 3 - Teams with high-paid goalies don't win Stanley Cups in the post-lockout NHL.In fact, on average, Stanley Cup champions in the cap era have spent $4.754 million on the goaltender position. Makes Luongo's $5.33 million cap hit a bit less difficult to swallow, doesn't it?"Totally misses the point... the point was that you need to have players on cheap contracts; such as Anaheim in '07, Chicago in '10. The fact that teams have expensive goaltenders sitting on the bench during the playoffs is ok?No it doesn't miss the point. People constantly say 5m for a goalie is too much since cup winners never win with expensive goalies, and that clearly shows that to be false. Them sitting on the bench has no bearing on that. The argument is made because people say you need to use that money for a strong offense / defense, but those teams obviously weren't using that money anywhere

[SBriand 4]

I don't think anyone said he was awful. I looked again, and I don't see anyone say that. Overrated/Top 15 goalie =! awful. Just means he isn't elite or top 3 like many canuck fans (not necessarily you) seem to believe.

[Dubey 1,035]

I'm not pulling up the stats, but I believe the highest career playoff save percentage among active goalies belongs to none other than Patrick lalime. My point? Putting up a decent save percentage is not the sign of a good playoff goalie. It is getting the job done when it really counts. Luongo has failed miserably at this, laying a huge egg in elimination games for two straight years.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Luongo is not a money goalie yet he's being paid as such.