good call down?

[bmwmcoupe 0]

he could of easily had a middle pp, he could of been betting strong to protect is marginal hand, lets face it you though he had a weak hand, problem is you also had a weak hand, i think calling it down was a horrible play, i woulda checked raise ont he flop

[Dubey 1,035]

Maybe it was a good call, maybe it wasn't, reads can change everything.but, why did you come on here and make a post asking if it was a good calldown if you have already decided in your head that it was a brilliant call and refuse to accept any other opinions?

[SOWhatKid 0]

If that was you're read then good call. But once that 5 hit and you knew you were good on the river why didn't you raise at the end? Don't get scared to raise on the end when you have a pretty strong read you have him beat

[bmwmcoupe 0]

i dont quite get why u played this hand, there was nothing in the middle, why risk your money in a hand you can't be very confident about

[chindi 0]

And to the guy who asked why I didn't raise him on the river? Whos calling who a fish? What would that accomplish exactly. If i'm right about his hand he folds I win his 150. If i'm wrong he calls or moves in on me and then i'm censored. Not a really profitable play if you ask me. So you have this brilliant locked on read that you're willing to push half your stack in with (6 + 15 + 50 + 150), but you're not willing to raise it up on the river because he might jam the pot? Seriously, that position makes it clear that you had no faith in your read, and as such you had no business in the pot. Why? Because if you're certain about that read, then you want to raise and you want him to push in so you can double up.If you're not certain on the read, then you have absolutely no business being in that pot, plain and simple. Calling better than 1/3rd of your stack on a weak hunch, is just foolish, foolish play. You guys seem to assume that because someone makes one calldown with a marginal hand that they must always do it.This was not a calldown with a marginal hand. This was a calldown with a weak hand into a strong board, where you got just lucky enough that the player pushing the betting was even weaker and the MP with the low flopped flush couldn't hang in with the betting. While I dont make it a habit if I think you are weak I will call you down with bottom pair. That is exactly why you're a fish. Because the 'weak' hands on that board still beat you. Weak hands on that board include low flushes, two pair, flopped sets and trip 2s. A pair of 5s is weak enough not to register on the scale of hands there. I call people who are unwilling to call big bets with marginal hands either sorry poker readers, or worse yet, weak tight.There is a huge difference between calling big bets with marginal hands and what you did here.There is a huge difference between good poker play and what you did here.Seriously.... there are two options here:Either your read is stone-cold accurate: In which case you need to make a move at this pot on the turn to shake him off of it and to avoid having him spike an Ace, a non 4-club, or a K/Q/J/T all of which might be his kicker and all of which you (should) have a hard time calling given your read. Or since the river doesn't seem to improve his hand you should re-raise on the river hoping he comes over the top and you clean him out. - OR -Your read is weak: In which case you look at the hand on the flop, consider the possibilities and either re-raise right there to shake him off the pot or let it go. - OR - You played a hunch, that might (and might not) be a read on his betting pattern:In which case you called down, got lucky, and then completely wasted the investment in information... by not getting any information from the hand. I'll agree with you on your last point that I shouldn't have flipped my hand up first but I did it because I was very confident in my read and because this isn't the type of guy who uses info like this in future hands, he regularly kicks back the better part of a case of beer while playing cards for several hours and doesen't really analyze things that deeply.This would be a valid point, except you weren't playing heads-up and there are several other players on the table who you gave away this information to. And again, if your read is strong enough to put $200 more in with a pair of 5s? Then your read is strong enough to raise and either get him to fold a real 'marginal' hand, or get him to pay you off.Your position of 'I had a great read, worth putting $150 more in on the river, but not enough to raise because he might call', is self-contradictory. Alot of your hand waving amounts to: Well I won didn't I? Which is hardly what you want to be saying when you're trying to say you're not a fish.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I am baffled. That's all I got. Terrible decisions throughout the hand IMO (pre-flop, post-flop, etc), and you want praise? Puhlease. :wink:

[Scott31 0]

I hate it when people post read-based hands on here. It always ends up with some guy saying that you should "play the percentages" followed by the OP saying, "but I read him for nothing." And then 3 pages of bickering follow. Here's my opinion:Preflop: I wouldn't complete with K5os, but not a big deal.Flop: Terrible call here and your logic was even worse. 'If only I could hit my 1 outer' is NEVER good thinking in poker. Turn: This is where your reads and past experience with this player kicked in and it paid off.River: Gutsy call, based on your read. The problem with the original post is that you gave a scenario based purely on a strong read on the guy (which only you can fully trust and know) and then you title the thread, 'Good call Down?' Of course it was a good call down, but it's not the majority of the time. The big dilemma with these types of threads is that read-based plays don't involve going with the percentages or the mathematical call. They involve going with your gut and are often antithetical to sound, solid play. You're always going to get this kind of response when posting a hand like this in a poker forum, because it's counterintuitive to call a 150 dollar bet on a board like that, unless you have a strong read, which you did.

[AllenRay4 0]

i agree with the posters that if you're read was so good, why not raise the river and try to keep from showing your hand down? i wouldnt raise the turn, just in case the river could hurt you and make it an expensive pot but if you raise the river, then it might show how great your read was. instead it just looks like a fish call down kindayou certainly did put together the puzzle on the river (as one poster said, 2 pr prob checks, anything else, a smaller bet that wants a call) but i'm not really sure it's worth it in the first place for such a small starting pot to be monkeying around like that. the part about wishing for a 1 outer makes no sense though.

[halvey7 0]

Why ask for thoughts on your hand if your going to be pissed when people give them? "good call down?" People tell you no, and you get pissed, don't ask if your going to get pissed at people's answer.

[Canada 0]

Oh come on!Who are you morons suggesting a raise on the river?Anybody who puts another player on a hand never commits to that holding 100%, not to mention the fact that his read was for a single card with a random kicker.No matter how confident he is of his read, there is plenty of uncertainty here as to the opponents holding. You always are playing against a range of hands with varying probalities.To suggest raising on the end has to be one of the most fundamental mistakes you can make.What is the opponent going to call with? Certainly not anything that comes 2nd. There is no way a raise makes money here.Add that suggestion to the 'You know he's a fish when he says...' thread.The OP may have made some questionable plays early in the hand but this is tempered by the fact that he was there and intimately familiar with the game and the opponent. He also played with contingencies of bluffing off if the turn/river missed both their likely hands.There are some very strong components to his play, and whilst it can easily be debated, to suggest raising the river sticks you in the aquarium and its game, set and match to the OP.

[chindi 0]

What is the opponent going to call with? Certainly not anything that comes 2nd. There is no way a raise makes money here.

You miss the point entirely.I agree it's unlikely that the raise makes additional money here, though the person having bluffed $150, may feel obligated depending on whether or not you jam the pot.But more to the point, you raise it, he folds, and you don't have to show the trivial hand you beat him with... unless you WANT to do so in order to gain an edge on future plays.

Add that suggestion to the 'You know he's a fish when he says...' thread.

Because it's a fundamentally stronger play to call a third of your stack on what amounts to a semi-bluff? Fascinating.

The OP may have made some questionable plays early in the hand but this is tempered by the fact that he was there and intimately familiar with the game and the opponent. He also played with contingencies of bluffing off if the turn/river missed both their likely hands.

He played the contingencies of bluffing.... AND THEN CALLED, which is a fish play. If you're setting someone up on a bluff, then BLUFF them, don't call them for the amount they've already pushed into the pot. If you're setting him up for the bluff, and you think he missed his likely hand... and you just call his bet... then you're absolutely just begging for him to turn over A6.But if you bet it, chances are he throws anything away, up to and including the 3rd 2.

There are some very strong components to his play, and whilst it can easily be debated, to suggest raising the river sticks you in the aquarium and its game, set and match to the OP.

Yes, because god knows Fish are known for making plays that keep them from giving away chips to mediocre hands.If you just call you lose to A6, A2, A5, A4, AA, any other 6, any flush. If we go with the Ac read, then there are 14 hands out of 43 that beat us, and all of them are hands he could have been betting with, and none of them are cards he can call with unless the OP has a loose/aggressive image. Yes, he won the pot, but if the OP had posted this without posting the result, would you have come out and said this was an amazing play?If you raise, you're only losing to a made flush, or the boat. Both of which the 'read' says that the opponent doesn't have. The best play in this setting that is consistent with the read the OP claimed to have is to raise, watch him Muck his cards and take down the pot.

[Johnny Lately 0]

here at FCP we get so many fish that post their hands here that claim they make an amazing read, when in fact they just got extremely lucky. It's hard to differentiate between those who actually make a great read and the fish who get lucky. If you post anything besides an ABC play here, most likely you will be percieved as a lucky fish, because frankly, that's the majority of the posters who come on here.So...don't come here expecting open arms and thunderous applause with your read because most likely you will be flamed.don't take it personally, that's just how it is.

the closest post to the truth in this thread...

[Canada 0]

What is the opponent going to call with? Certainly not anything that comes 2nd. There is no way a raise makes money here.

You miss the point entirely.I agree it's unlikely that the raise makes additional money here' date=' though the person having bluffed $150' date=' may feel obligated depending on whether or not you jam the pot.[/quote'']I'm not sure what your suggesting here, that he might get called down with Ace high on a 3 flush, 4 straight and paired board?The OP will have 1/2 his stack in the pot by calling so his raise will be in the range of 150 (min raise) to about 215.How do you define jamming the pot

But more to the point' date=' you raise it, he folds, and you don't have to show the trivial hand you beat him with... unless you WANT to do so in order to gain an edge on future plays.[/quote']So you peel of the remainder of your stack in order to protect information on your hand. That may be justified in a small pot but here it's just ridiculous.Not to forget that the OP has already played 100's of hours with the opponent and that showing this call down is a good thing. If somebody called you down there with that hand, indicating a great read, would it not put the fear of God into you?

Add that suggestion to the 'You know he's a fish when he says...' thread.

Because it's a fundamentally stronger play to call a third of your stack on what amounts to a semi-bluff? Fascinating.

His call of 1/3 of his stack was on the river and closed the hand...How on earth does that relate to semi-bluffing. I'm assuming you haven't explained yourself too well here' date=' because that statement makes no sense at all.

The OP may have made some questionable plays early in the hand but this is tempered by the fact that he was there and intimately familiar with the game and the opponent. He also played with contingencies of bluffing off if the turn/river missed both their likely hands.

He played the contingencies of bluffing.... AND THEN CALLED' date=' which is a fish play. If you're setting someone up on a bluff' date=' then BLUFF them' date=' don't call them for the amount they've already pushed into the pot. If you're setting him up for the bluff, and you think he missed his likely hand... and you just call his bet... then you're absolutely just begging for him to turn over A6.[/quote''']Absolute dribble. He's put the read on the Ace and improved enough to beat that holding. There is no need to bluff after catching the pair.His opponent didn't have a A6 or A5 as this is exposed by his river play, and he can't raise the turn himself as he's closing the action with draws to a straight or straight flush and his opponent is likely to have the nut flush draw. On the river he is 90% sure the opponent is bluffing so snap it off with stronger hand. Bluffing back here can only lose money. If his read is right he wins what is in the pot and won't get a cent more, and if his read is wrong he loses his entire stack .

But if you bet it' date=' chances are he throws anything away, up to and including the 3rd 2.[/quote']You start this post saying the opponent may feel obligated to call and now are stating that he's going to muck his set.Ever heard of the expression 'going around in cirles'

There are some very strong components to his play' date=' and whilst it can easily be debated' date=' to suggest raising the river sticks you in the aquarium and its game, set and match to the OP.[/quote'']Yes, because god knows Fish are known for making plays that keep them from giving away chips to mediocre hands.

Like raising when you will only be called by a better hand perhaps?

If you just call you lose to A6' date=' A2, A5, A4, AA, any other 6, any flush. If we go with the Ac read, then there are 14 hands out of 43 that beat us, and all of them are hands he could have been betting with, and none of them are cards he can call with unless the OP has a loose/aggressive image. [/quote']Remember the opponent is in the BB and on the river is closing the actionBB not raising preflop with AA vs 2 limpers? Highly unlikely - he will raise to get heads up against the MP.A6, A2, A5 & A4 are all good enough hands to show down against busted draws which is how the OP has played his hand. If he has one of these he doesn't bet the river last to play. Perhaps the A4, but he is also likly to call a raise with that hand too.The opponent does not need to bet the river unless:a - he has a strong hand, and on a paired board with a 3 flush and a 4 card straight he won't be betting 2 pair or trips for the very same reason you don't raise his bet here.b- he is bluffing. He is not going to bluff with those holdings as they are strong enough to showdown against a non-made handGiven that, the OP is either beat convincingly by a hand that will call a raise that is less than the pot (remember that is all the OP has left) or the OP is way out in front against an opponent that has at best Ace high and will fold to any raise.

Yes' date=' he won the pot, but if the OP had posted this without posting the result, would you have come out and said this was an amazing play?[/quote']Where did I say it was an amazing play? I said there were strong components that could be debated. The only thing I thing is amazing is to suggest a raise. Amazingly stupid.

If you raise' date=' you're only losing to a made flush, or the boat. Both of which the 'read' says that the opponent doesn't have. The best play in this setting that is consistent with the read the OP claimed to have is to raise, watch him Muck his cards and take down the pot.[/quote']No, the best play here is to call and take down the pot when your read is correct without risking any further funds when your wrong.Its all about maximising wins while your ahead and at the same time minimising losses when your behind.The only benefit of raising is to not have to show your hand. Massive + EV there... (big SW)Of course if your beat you don't have to show your hand anyway. I agree the OP made a mistake there by exposing his hand early

[chindi 0]

The OP may have made some questionable plays early in the hand but this is tempered by the fact that he was there and intimately familiar with the game and the opponent. He also played with contingencies of bluffing off if the turn/river missed both their likely hands.

He played the contingencies of bluffing.... AND THEN CALLED, which is a fish play. If you're setting someone up on a bluff, then BLUFF them, don't call them for the amount they've already pushed into the pot. If you're setting him up for the bluff, and you think he missed his likely hand... and you just call his bet... then you're absolutely just begging for him to turn over A6.

Absolute dribble. He's put the read on the Ace and improved enough to beat that holding. There is no need to bluff after catching the pair.

Having the read on the Ace is fine... if that's the only card the opponent is playing. He wasn't. The OP stated that he didn't know what the other card might have been and had concerns it might have been a 6 or 5, but kept calling anyway.That it worked, doesn't make it smart.

His opponent didn't have a A6 or A5 as this is exposed by his river play, and he can't raise the turn himself as he's closing the action with monster draws to a straight, full house or straight flush and his opponent is likely to have the nut flush draw. Read some of Sklansky's books as to why he can only call on the turn

I'd be interested in the Sklansky book that has him in this pot at the turn to make the call.As far as the opponents bet revealing he had a weak hand? That's certainly accurate... and yet A6 is an extremely weak hand given this board that you could certainly bet out if you though for instance your opponent had the Kc and had missed his 4 flush as well.The bet didn't mean he had nothing at all, and the OP has no idea whether he did or didn't because, again, he showed his cards out of turn and let the other guy muck his cards.

But if you bet it, chances are he throws anything away, up to and including the 3rd 2.

You start this post saying the opponent may feel obligated to call and now are stating that he's going to muck his set.Ever heard of the expression 'going around in cirles'

Yes. Ever heard the definition of the word 'may'?It may rain tomorrow.Chances are it's going to be sunny tomorrow.These statements are neither contradictory, nor do they go around in circles. Feel free to continue criticizing points of grammar where I'm correct instead of addressing the points raised.

Like raising when you will only be called by a better hand perhaps?

If he suspects he's beat? Then no part of this is good play. You're defending the play on the strength of the read, and then saying betting is stupid based on the read. For someone who accused me of going around in circles, you've taken awfully contradictory position to yourself.You go on to talk about how it's all bout minimizing your losses and maximizing your wins, and you're completely correct, and VERY little of the OPs play on this hand does either. Yes, if he raises and gets called then he's definetly beat... but if that is such a large possibility then it suggests his read is not certain, and that he's thrown half of his stack in on a hunch with K5 on a very strong board.But those of us suggesting he push his Opponent off the board if he has a mid-strength hand are the amazingly stupid ones....okaybe.

[Pokerdad2222 0]

I 100% agree with Canada here... All this blah blah blah is useless. The summary of this point is that there are four possible ending situations. A. Op calls and is right taking down a pot of around $430, about $215 of other players money.B. OP calls and is wrong losing around $215 of his stackRaising possibilitiesC. He raises and is wrong. Other player takes all of his money.D. He raises and is right and takes down a pot of $430, $215 of opponents money.The results of A and D are the same amount of winnings for the OP. IT is simple, no ifs ands or buts, why put more money at risk to take down the same pot you can take down with a call. The oponent is not going to call with a beat hand at this point. IF he does, tell me where this game is and I will fly there tonight and make a living of this game.

[AllenRay4 0]

we could argue about this for days. the bottom line is, if you're playing with your little brother and you know he's full of $hit or has nothing and call him down it looks great but to the outsiders it just looks like a fish play callin down with a lower pair. this guy says he has played with the guy for 100 hrs so i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on the read and his putting things together on the river actually makes sense even if you disagreed with how he played the hand. he's not going to change his stance. the 'you fish' people arent going to change theirs, it's just how it is.however, i dont see why people write these long messages, then people 'quote' these same entire messages, proceed to pin-point and critique every single word trying to make the other look as stupid as possible and then someone does it back to them because they feel slighted. then those long messages get quoted for what is like the 4th time and before long the actual new message takes forever to scroll down down and its a waste of time. ok just a small mini rant, just got my grades from spring semester, not good. gg school

[SOWhatKid 0]

as I said he should have value raised at the end if he was very sure

[Scott31 0]

as I said he should have value raised at the end if he was very sure

Value raise? Good god. :roll: Yeah, that's a great strategy. Here's what you do from now on. When you're in a hand with a mid pair and a draw heavy board with a 1 card straight poss. and a flush poss. out there, raise it. That way he will call you with a WORST hand than your pair of fives as there are tons of hands that don't have you beat here. Let me see, a pair of 4s....3s....2s....and well, ace high. 4 hands you can beat! That should be enough for a raise, right? (major sw)Look, a raise on the river will only get calls from better hands and the worst hands will ALWAYS fold here. That's why it's a brainless move. Even if he flips his cards face up at the end, and you know what he has, a raise is just a waste of a motion and you'll be dumping more to the rake, assuming it wasn't capped yet. The only way a river raise isn't unbelievably -EV here is if you are right on EVERY SINGLE TIME on your reads and get him to fold every time. Because the one time you're wrong on your read, this becomes a losing money proposition. If you can't understand this concept, then you should stop playing poker altogether and play Monopoly at McDonald's as your source of income. You'd have a better chance of making money doing that then you ever would playing poker.

[Acesgotcracked 0]

Man if you guys think this hand was fishy I wonder what you would think when I told you about calling a 300 dollar bet on the river(It was into a 80 pot) with pocket 3's on a board of Q-J-9-7-4(rainbow). He showed me A-K, this is not to say I havent been snapped trying to make a great call but I make money doing it and as an earlier poster stated when i'm right(about 70% of the time) it puts the absolute fear of god into people.

[Acesgotcracked 0]

More to the point, its my opinion that if you can't make a call with a weak hand like this, your heart pumps Kool-Aid and you gut no business playing poker. Remember Julian Gardner in the Main Event this year calling with pocket 10's on a board of K-K-Q-x-x with a flush out there(I think). Most impressive call of that tournament, fing monster play, thats why hes a one of the best, cause hes got the confidence to do something like that and not just sit there and quibble about BS.

[realdeal515 0]

How do u give youreself any implied odds if u put the guy on a stone bluff, even if u do make youre miracle strflsh hes just not going to call youre all in with nothing. Unless i missed something

[Acesgotcracked 0]

I said I put him on the naked Ace of clubs. Meaning my joker card 4 of clubs would have given him the nut flush, and having played endless hours of poker with this cat I am 1000000000000000% positive that he aint gonna get away from that situation.(I know very few people who could.)

[chindi 0]

More to the point, its my opinion that if you can't make a call with a weak hand like this, your heart pumps Kool-Aid and you gut no business playing poker.

Hrm. Blah. Blah. Fishsticks.Sorry, if you don't want people to disagree with you don't ask for people's opinions. You're better off sitting in your living room patting yourself on the ... back.The play was weak, and turn up your hand out of turn was stupid. You were calling with rags and got lucky that you hit, and got lucky that it held up. If you're certain enough of that read you should be taking that hand down with a re-raise on the turn, because you know you have a change to get wrecked on the turn by the ace or his mystery card or the non 4c.And seriously, if you want to call someone a pussy, just call them a pussy all this mewling around the point is as sad as your play.I'm done here.

[Acesgotcracked 0]

I guess if my name was Daniel Negreneau it would be a great read and play.I didn't raise on the turn because I knew this guy would gamble with me on the club hitting and I didn't want to give him the chance to get lucky and take basically my whole stack. If a non 4 club hits I check fold, if an ace hits I check fold. If his mystery card hits(say an 8), it probably goes check check because now he has something so he doesen't feel his only way to win is to knock me off my weak holding.I showed earlier that my pot odds on the 15 dollar bet were only slightly off, and I went on the assumption that the MP player would fold and put no more money into the pot. If he gets involved my implied odds are more than good enough for a 1-45 chance.BTW, this is coming from the guy who suggested a raise on the river. I think you clearly have no confidence in your ability to read opponents and put them on hands. Maybe a few to many hours hiding behind that monitor.

[SOWhatKid 0]

as I said he should have value raised at the end if he was very sure

Value raise? Good god. :roll: Yeah, that's a great strategy. Here's what you do from now on. When you're in a hand with a mid pair and a draw heavy board with a 1 card straight poss. and a flush poss. out there, raise it. That way he will call you with a WORST hand than your pair of fives as there are tons of hands that don't have you beat here. Let me see, a pair of 4s....3s....2s....and well, ace high. 4 hands you can beat! That should be enough for a raise, right? (major sw)Look, a raise on the river will only get calls from better hands and the worst hands will ALWAYS fold here. That's why it's a brainless move. Even if he flips his cards face up at the end, and you know what he has, a raise is just a waste of a motion and you'll be dumping more to the rake, assuming it wasn't capped yet. The only way a river raise isn't unbelievably -EV here is if you are right on EVERY SINGLE TIME on your reads and get him to fold every time. Because the one time you're wrong on your read, this becomes a losing money proposition. If you can't understand this concept, then you should stop playing poker altogether and play Monopoly at McDonald's as your source of income. You'd have a better chance of making money doing that then you ever would playing poker.

you're dumb if im getting a read this guy is betting on a certain hand and it hasn't hit the board yet you better believe im raising. Im not a math professor or anything but I am not afraid to trust my instincts. You don't agree but he won the pot with his 5's but he was pretty sure of what he has so why not raise on the end so you don't have to show you're cards! My opinion take it for whatever it is! Scott31 is pretending to be a big time poker player but in reality when he logs into his accout it shows $13. Have fun playing two five dollar tournys pvssy