good call down?

[SapphireTiger 0]

here at FCP we get so many fish that post their hands here that claim they make an amazing read, when in fact they just got extremely lucky. It's hard to differentiate between those who actually make a great read and the fish who get lucky. If you post anything besides an ABC play here, most likely you will be percieved as a lucky fish, because frankly, that's the majority of the posters who come on here.So...don't come here expecting open arms and thunderous applause with your read because most likely you will be flamed.don't take it personally, that's just how it is.

[Acesgotcracked 0]

6 dollars in the pot pre-flop, 448 left in front of me15x45=525. If I did hit my card I would stand to win the 6 dollars pre flop, the 30 dollars from my opponents bet and call and double up for the 433 in front of me. That right there is 469 and thats assuming that my other opponent would drop out(dont think he had much. My odds aren't quite there but again, 15 dollars to try and hit a hand that would make this a very good session for me is a good gamble in the sense of risk/reward. Also, I beleived I had two live cards that would give me the best hand as well. It seems like most of you guys probably play very little live poker and never have to actually put reads on people, its a very different game.

[cdddc75 0]

15 dollars from this guy said to me that he didn't flop anything good because if he did he would of attempted a check raise and when he bet the pretty aggressively on the turn I felt that he really wanted everyone to fold. And on the river if he really had a flush or boat or even a straight why would he make a nearly pot sized bet when I played it like a had a big club and clearly didn't make my hand. Wouldn't you bet say 75 or 90 in hopes of getting a call from someone with a weaker hand like A-6. The pot sized bet on the river seemed to be begging me to fold because he had missed his draw. The straight flush draw was enough to keep me in the hand only because 15 dollars was nothing to the massive pot I could win if I did hit my miracle 4 of clubs I stood to win a huge pot even though the odds were not quite there(pretty darn close though).

What if he just had a weak hand like A-6?

[Acesgotcracked 0]

I would understand people calling me lucky If I had called off 100 on the flop and 200 on the river and spiked the miracle 4 of clubs on the river and snappped off his flopped Ace high flush but thats not how it played out at all. I called a small bet on the flop and once the turn hit I strongly beleived I had the best of it. I didn't suck out, I guess I might of sucked out on Ace high but its not like he gave me a big reason to fold.

[Acesgotcracked 0]

A-6 crossed my mind at first but when he bet the turn aggressively I eliminated it because cold calls from two players on the flop would have slowed him down, along with a card that put a one card straight out there.

[monoatomic 0]

Why are you so stuck on hitting that damn 4 of clubs to "make your session"Do you call down $15 dollars and the $150 everytime you miss that one outer that would have made your session?You aren't even taking into account the fact that any 4 makes your hand another 5 or K are good.

[Acesgotcracked 0]

Because hes not gonna stack off with an off suited 4, a 5, or a King. The card the will make him ship it is the 4 of clubs. If the turn is an offsuited 8 and he bets 50 I fold because I cant even beat Ace high.

[KDawgCometh 2]

lets call a spade a spade. It was an awful flop call that you got lucky on. Okay, so his flop bet screamed weakness to you, but can your nothing beat his nothing right here, no not really. You could very well be dominated by AK, and even if he has AQ or AJ, he could very well have the Ace of clubs. Okay, so you call the 15 bet w/an overcaller and hit the 5. so now all you have is a naked pair of fives on a deeply draw heavy board. Even if you hit the miracle 4 you'd need your opponent to have an ace high or king high flush to get paid off enough to make the implied odds work here. Before you start demanding to know what limits that I play at, I'll terll you. Right now I play 3/6 LHE on Party, 1/2 NLHE on Party, 3/6 stud on Party, 10/20 LHE live, 3/6 NLHE live, 15/30 Stud Live, and have played up to 30-60 LHE live and 5-10 NLHE live before I lost 90% of my roll due to life situations that were out of my control. I feel that I have a vwery good grasp on the game of poker, so don't try attacking me with I play at x limit bullshit

[Acesgotcracked 0]

I dont post much here but I read most of what is written and I greatly respect your opinion, I only threw that stakes stuff out there because I get sick of the same people ripping folks a new one for any questionable play when infact these people dont play for enough cash to make any decision one of consequence. Again I felt he had the Ace or King of clubs and that my implied odds were close enough to call the 15 dollar bet on a 1-45 draw(I didn't care about the other 4's cause he wouldn't pay me then. If I hadn't caught anything on the turn and especially if it was a random club I would have been done with it, but as it turned out I paired up, and my read of naked Ace of clubs was correct and he paid me off.

[Acesgotcracked 0]

BTW, it was unraised pre-flop so I knew he didn't have A-K, and this particular guy probably would have popped it with A-Q or even A-J off.

[monoatomic 0]

The thing is he paid you off anyways to the tune of $150.00 so the theory about him not paying you off is alittle false.I don't wave my poker bankroll dick around with what limits I play and don't play. I could play 100/200 or .01/.02 and still know you made a bad call.Don't bring your stack size to the debate. No one here gives a shit if you play 1/2 or 2/5 NL. The item in question is if you made a good or bad call. I say bad.

[Acesgotcracked 0]

he didn't pay off crap, I was forced to make a monster read and call down to earn that 150 dollars. If I had spiked a 4 of diamonds I would of had to bet the river and after he missed his draw he would have folded. I dont see how this isn't just a situation where one guy was makeing a play and another guy saw through it. Read Daniels recent article about the World Poker Open where he called a guy down with like bottom pair and a somewhat coordinated board. Go rip him for that even though he was right.

[monoatomic 0]

Show me the article in question and I will openly call what in my mind is a bad play a bad play.I don't have to suck on DN's nuts. He isn't paying me to play and besides being a respected player I have no knowledge of him as a person. If he made a bad play and posted his hand asking for my opinion and I thought it was bad I would say it straight out.

[Acesgotcracked 0]

Its on the front page of FCP. If not in the most recent issue of cardplayer(Tuan Lee cover). I dont give a **** what you say, Daniels play in this hand was a monster call down, he saw right through his opponents bluff and made an amazing call.

[Acesgotcracked 0]

its at cardplayer

[monoatomic 0]

Yep read the article.COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!He's in a tournament, not a cash game. Totally different scenario.It's also check/check check/check to a river huge over bet. In this case I probably would have played the hand differently then he did. Probably firing out a bet on the flop or turn. If he's going to play 96s for a blind steal from early position he should follow it up when he hit the flop. The hand probably doesn't even make it to the river if that was the case.He also didn't make a "great read" he even says this is the hand that can make it or break it. He had no clue what this guy had but called it down to either pump up his tourney stack or be out.So, I am done.Don't post again trying to prove to me that your call was good, I don't care anymore.

[pokepoke1967 0]

They both know that the other blind could have anything w/ no preflop raise.....the bb never made bets that would make you feel like he was coaxing a call did he? If he flopped 2 pair.....would he really value bet $150 after that river.....he has to respect that the sb could have anything also.....the safe play is to check it and win if the 2 pair are good....if he had the flush or straight I think $75 to $100 would have been the bet for value. The guy put it together, especially with his knowledge of this player.....give him some credit.

[Acesgotcracked 0]

Thats what everyone else in the club thought as well(some very respected players in the area said that was a faboulous call down). But I guess a bunch of guys who play live poker no more than maybe once a year know that its best to always fold when your opponent bets strong regardless of if you strongly beleive he has Jack.

[allinbluff35 0]

Thats what everyone else in the club thought as well(some very respected players in the area said that was a faboulous call down). But I guess a bunch of guys who play live poker no more than maybe once a year know that its best to always fold when your opponent bets strong regardless of if you strongly beleive he has Jack.

you assume a lot more than you actually know about certain posters, as I have stated in my previous posts I think it is an atrocious call and think a different line should have been taken on the hand.

[ofplayer 0]

Maybe I'm an idiot, but there's a big part of this that doesn't make sense to me. Why the hell didn't you raise on the turn if you were so sure of this read? If you're willing to call 150 on the river, how about raising 180 more on the turn and making it too expensive for the naked ace or A6 to call? I certainly don't think you want to just let that blank club or ace hit the river, you really can't rule out the x hitting in A-x hitting. And you don't know if he's going to fire again on the river, especially if a scare card hits. If you have a read strong enough to call 30% of your stack, I think you have a read strong enough that you need to raise on the turn instead.I wouldn't be that sure that you have all of his chips in your stack with the 4 of clubs either. Your opponent can probably read too, and putting you on the 4 of clubs isn't impossible here, unless you've been setting him up for a play and you're pretty sure he'll give you the chips...

I would understand people calling me lucky If I had called off 100 on the flop and 200 on the river and spiked the miracle 4 of clubs on the river and snappped off his flopped Ace high flush but thats not how it played out at all. I called a small bet on the flop and once the turn hit I strongly beleived I had the best of it. I didn't suck out, I guess I might of sucked out on Ace high but its not like he gave me a big reason to fold.

[Acesgotcracked 0]

Because with this particular opponent he would call a massive raise with the naked Ace of clubs on the turn. Then if a club or Ace spikes I have to fold my hand having lost more than necessary, Better just to look him up here than risking him getting lucky and jacking 1/2 my stack on one hand.

[chindi 0]

If I had spiked a 4 of diamonds I would of had to bet the river and after he missed his draw he would have folded. I dont see how this isn't just a situation where one guy was makeing a play and another guy saw through it.And that is why they're calling you a fish, because you don't see the difference. You put him on the Ace of clubs, with no idea what his kicker may have been. Maybe it's a 3, since he knew noone else could have flopped the 'nut' flush he figured betting the pot with 4 to the flush and having caught a small piece of it was a strong play.Of the 7 cards that give him the flush, only one of them is a card that gets the money out of him AND where you don't lose the hand, so regardless of the cards that don't improve anyone you're chasing a 1/8th shot of getting paid, and you're pushing in 1/6th of your stack to get it. That's not fancy play. That's just foolish.Read Daniels recent article about the World Poker Open where he called a guy down with like bottom pair and a somewhat coordinated board. Go rip him for that even though he was right.There is a difference between a SOMEWHAT coordinated board and a flush board. Chances are that third player that folded out had a weak flush, which means if he'd had the read that you had on the other guy then you were drawing DEAD to the 4 of clubs. So calling, on the flop, expecting the 4 of clubs to get you the win, is literally the stupidest possible play you can make. You need to either check/raise there to push the third player out, or duck and cover. Because you want his cards dead MUCH more than you want his $15 messing up your chances.But the part of this that makes you even more of a fish (in my eyes)? I thought for about 10 seconds and decided to trust my gut and called flipping my hand up first even though I called him You gave away information. There is NO logical reason to show your cards first. If he turns it up and has a weak flush? Then you grimace and muck your cards and maybe next time he doesn't know how loose/crazy you were, but he remembers your willingness to call with bad hands on a flush board and he pays you off when you have it. You also gave away the chance to confirm your read, either way, because he mucked his hand away. Thus meaning all you know is that he DIDN'T have a better pair/kicker, and DIDN'T have the flush. You don't know if he was aggressively betting his four flush, bluffing with AK of a different suit, or naked bluffing at the pot.You don't know anything about his play, that you didn't know before. But he's gained some valuable information about things you're certain enough of his play to call off half your stack.That hand cost him $221 dollars. If he's any sort of player that information is going to let him snap back alot more from you, and if you've truly played hundreds of hours with him? He'll get his chance.Seriously, horrible, horrible hand, and if you don't want to hear people's honest opinion about it, then don't post and ask for it.

[mbreon 0]

If you are happy with your read on the hand and the way that you played it, then why did you post it up here asking if you made a good play in the first place? You know people are going to disagree with the way you played that hand....

[cdddc75 0]

Because with this particular opponent he would call a massive raise with the naked Ace of clubs on the turn. Then if a club or Ace spikes I have to fold my hand having lost more than necessary, Better just to look him up here than risking him getting lucky and jacking 1/2 my stack on one hand.

If your read was that great, why didn't you push over the top on the river?

[Acesgotcracked 0]

First of all I dont mind hearing someones honest opinion I was attempting to discuss/debate the hand with my opponent. I'll agree with you on your last point that I shouldn't have flipped my hand up first but I did it because I was very confident in my read and because this isn't the type of guy who uses info like this in future hands, he regularly kicks back the better part of a case of beer while playing cards for several hours and doesen't really analyze things that deeply.I was not calling just for the four of clubs(BTW, how is 15 dollars 1/6th of my stack, maybe I misunderstood). I beleived that he was weak and had thought about calling him down to the river with King high and then taking him off it on the river if a club didn't hit him(or ace). I figured I had two live cards and a gutshoot(straight flush draw was the joker) and that if all else failed I could probably knock him off his hand and let him semi-bluff on 4th and use that money to get paid. The one variable in my read is that I of course dont know what his kicker was. Theres only two cards that I even have to worry about it being(6,2,5). If his kicker is any other card i'm golden once that 5 peels off. I'll take my chances that his kicker is a 3,4, 7, 8,9,10,J,Q,or K anyday of the week. And to the guy who asked why I didn't raise him on the river? Whos calling who a fish? What would that accomplish exactly. If i'm right about his hand he folds I win his 150. If i'm wrong he calls or moves in on me and then i'm ****ed. Not a really profitable play if you ask me. Everyone keeps saying the flop call was just terrible. Well we already saw how my implied odds were almost there(and when I figured those that was on the assumption that the MP player would put no more money into the pot), so maybe that call was slightly incorrect mathmatically, but 15 is not important to me and i'll take a card for it with decent implied odds(in NL games)any day of the week. And as I stated earlier I thought there were multiple ways for me to win this hand, the 4 of clubs was of course the bingo card but I called on the flop because I thought he was weak and there were many cards which would make me the winner and one that would make my night, and that I could knock him off his hand on the river if no more clubs came.You guys seem to assume that because someone makes one calldown with a marginal hand that they must always do it. While I dont make it a habit if I think you are weak I will call you down with bottom pair. I call people who are unwilling to call big bets with marginal hands either sorry poker readers, or worse yet, weak tight.