KosinTrouble 0 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 I didnt bet the flop, because I wanted one of them to catch something and I can raise later.should I have raised on the turn or was my call an alright move?Thanks and appriciate all feedback.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comUTG ($1.13)UTG+1 ($4.29)Hero (MP1) ($3.07)MP2 ($4.01)CO ($5.09)Button ($3.84)SB ($1.14)BB ($2.65)Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 6, 8UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.02, 2 folds, Button calls $0.02, SB calls $0.01, BB checksFlop: ($0.10) 8, 6, 8(5 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, Button checksTurn: ($0.10) A(5 players)SB bets $0.10, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10River: ($0.40) 9(3 players)SB bets $0.06, Hero raises to $0.32, 2 foldsTotal pot: $0.52 | Rake: $0 Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 From the hands you post, it seems you really need to work on getting value from your hands.You should be betting this every street. (As played you should have raised the turn) This is a five way limped pot with a very drawy board. It is incorrect to wait and hope someone makes a hand - you should be betting to charge them for drawing to their hand. If you wait till the river, they will only call/raise if they've hit - but they will do that anyway if you've been betting the whole time. You have to charge them now to 1) extract value for the times they miss and 2) to make more the times they hit, b/c the pot will be larger. Link to post Share on other sites
slink 1 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 definitely raise turn Link to post Share on other sites
Danege 1 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Fold pf./thread. Link to post Share on other sites
Ninja Ace 1 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 If you're playing this preflop... raise itPot flopPot turnPot river Link to post Share on other sites
Danege 1 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 If you're playing this preflop... raise itPot flopPot turnPot riverRaising this preflop in MP1 at a full ring table is just bad.There are zero reasons to play this hand in this position at 2nl, unless you're nutbarring. You shouldn't be telling this guy "if you have to play it, raise it." Because then he'll think its fine and raise it next time.Fold pf. /thread. Link to post Share on other sites
babylondonks 5 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Danege don't you have aim or something? Nobody is awake and I need to bitch to somebody Link to post Share on other sites
fighter 4 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 If you're playing this preflop... raise itPot flopPot turnPot riverWhy can we play this hand for a raise but not for a limp?Raising this preflop in MP1 at a full ring table is just bad.There are zero reasons to play this hand in this position at 2nl, unless you're nutbarring. You shouldn't be telling this guy "if you have to play it, raise it." Because then he'll think its fine and raise it next time.Fold pf. /thread.What are the reasons to play a hand in MP1? How does this hand not match those reasons? Link to post Share on other sites
Danege 1 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 What are the reasons to play a hand in MP1? How does this hand not match those reasons?I spose. You could flop a straight too!!! Link to post Share on other sites
fighter 4 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 I spose. You could flop a straight too!!!This guy is making a thread in here looking for advice and he is getting "fold pre" and "raise not limp" pre. I am trying to phrase a question to you(and temp) that could give him some knowledge about reasons to play hands, so he can work out his own pre flop hand range instead of playing a long ass version of battle ship. 86s in MP1......miss 73s in HJ......miss 55 in CO.....hit Link to post Share on other sites
KosinTrouble 0 Posted March 3, 2010 Author Share Posted March 3, 2010 I usually dont play these hands in early position because there is a chance of someone raising in which case I need to throw it away. I sometimes play them in late position if everyone else has limped and I feel there is little or no chance of a raise after me I will also limp. If everyone folds to me, and I am CO/button then yes I almost always raise with just about any two cards trying to pick up the pot.As it was in this game, there was very, very little preflop raisesother than by me. So by limping in with this, i was confident no one would raise and with these kinds of cards, the more people in the pot the better that was my thinking on it. If anyone raised, i would have thrown it away and yes I was willing to accept a 1bb loss.I would say 90% of the time I do fold these in early position but I felt the circumstances were right for me to limp it this time around.Does anyone have any articles on value betting? Like Swoly said, its obvious with the hands I am posting i need to work on my value betting.Ninja, you are saying that on each street I should just make a bet the size of the pot everytime. Link to post Share on other sites
Danege 1 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 This guy is making a thread in here looking for advice and he is getting "fold pre" and "raise not limp" pre. I am trying to phrase a question to you(and temp) that could give him some knowledge about reasons to play hands, so he can work out his own pre flop hand range instead of playing a long ass version of battle ship. 86s in MP1......miss 73s in HJ......miss 55 in CO.....hitLol I get what you're saying.Kosin, the reason you fold this PF is because playing suited connectors and gappers is hard when you're out of position. These hands flop big however to get MAX value out of your hands you need to be in position.As you saw in this hand you had trouble working out what lines to take, whereas if you were in late position the answer would be easy "bet and raise every street". Whereas in your case you had to try and work out if you could checkraise or any of that, making your life hard. Link to post Share on other sites
Danege 1 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Ninja, you are saying that on each street I should just make a bet the size of the pot everytime.If you just bet close to the pot size on every street thats fine. Link to post Share on other sites
KosinTrouble 0 Posted March 3, 2010 Author Share Posted March 3, 2010 Lol I get what you're saying.Kosin, the reason you fold this PF is because playing suited connectors and gappers is hard when you're out of position. These hands flop big however to get MAX value out of your hands you need to be in position.As you saw in this hand you had trouble working out what lines to take, whereas if you were in late position the answer would be easy "bet and raise every street". Whereas in your case you had to try and work out if you could checkraise or any of that, making your life hard.Ahh thank you for the explination, greatly appriciated. Learning lots from you guys! Dont always agree, but I am learning lots and learning the different ways to approach it, to make my own game work. But I do agree with the advice here in me being out of position making it hard to play.Kosin Trouble Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Kosin,Do you understand why you need to bet/raise before they make their hands, as opposed to letting them hit? Do you understand why this is even more magnified in a 5way pot, on a board like that?If not, let me know and I can try to explain it in more detail. Link to post Share on other sites
KosinTrouble 0 Posted March 3, 2010 Author Share Posted March 3, 2010 Kosin,Do you understand why you need to bet/raise before they make their hands, as opposed to letting them hit? Do you understand why this is even more magnified in a 5way pot, on a board like that?If not, let me know and I can try to explain it in more detail.Ok let me try to explain then you can tell me if I am right or not and/or expandPoint #1) Bet/Raise before they make their hands - I should be betting right off the get go, so it makes them pay to do any draw to thier hand. if they are willing to pay for the draw and make a hand during the next card, it is almost guarentee that i will be getting their staks in on the later streets. If they do not pay for thier draw, then its a won pot for me, YEAH! There is still the possibility that someone out there does have a hand better than me, and if I bet it may cause them to fold what is potentially the better hand.Point #2) Magnified ina 5way pot, on a board like that.. With so many people in the pot, the chances are that someone did hit something, so therefore at least one of them will call. Also with such a drawy board, there is the possibility that someone else is in there with another pocket pair which could crush me on the later streets. So while I am ahead it is better to get my money in now while I am the favorite and make the people PAY to see the following cards.Kosin Trouble Link to post Share on other sites
Danege 1 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Ahh thank you for the explination, greatly appriciated. Learning lots from you guys! Dont always agree, but I am learning lots and learning the different ways to approach it, to make my own game work. But I do agree with the advice here in me being out of position making it hard to play.Kosin TroubleBest thing to do when you don't agree with someone here is to type it out, and then someone will reply with to reasoning why/if/how you're wrong. Don't be scared. Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Point #1) Bet/Raise before they make their hands - I should be betting right off the get go, so it makes them pay to do any draw to thier hand. if they are willing to pay for the draw and make a hand during the next card, it is almost guarentee that i will be getting their staks in on the later streets. If they do not pay for thier draw, then its a won pot for me, YEAH! There is still the possibility that someone out there does have a hand better than me, and if I bet it may cause them to fold what is potentially the better hand.Eh, close. You're right that you need to charge them to draw. You're also correct that it also makes it so that when they do hit their draw, you are more likely to get max value because there is more money in the pot at that point.But be very careful about celebrating merely a won pot. You WANT them to pay for their draw here, you just have to charge a price that makes it incorrect for them to draw with the odds you are offering them. How is there any possibility that someone does have a better hand than you? You flopped the stone cold nuts, and the most outs someone could have to beat you is three (if they hold the case 8 with a higher kicker). It's far far more likely that they have a draw to a hand they think could win (straight or flush) but that in fact is drawing dead.Point #2) Magnified in a 5way pot, on a board like that.. With so many people in the pot, the chances are that someone did hit something, so therefore at least one of them will call. Also with such a drawy board, there is the possibility that someone else is in there with another pocket pair which could crush me on the later streets. So while I am ahead it is better to get my money in now while I am the favorite and make the people PAY to see the following cards.Both the 5way pot and the drawy board make it far more likely that at least one, if not multiple, opponents have a hand that can and will continue. Any two spades will call. 97 or 75 will call. 6x might call. Small PP might call. Lots of gutshot + overs hands (T9, T7, 95 etc) could call. Even unpaired broadway or Ax hands might call. All these hands are the smack dab middle of the range that players, especially loose passives that you'll see at micro stakes, like to limp with. Why should you be scared of a pocket pair crushing you on the later streets? 1) They would have to have 99+, which is unlikely since no one raised preflop. 2) Even then, they'd have to hit a two outer. You should not be worrying about getting it in as a favorite (the "before they suck out on me" mentality), you should be focused on making worse hands pay you. Link to post Share on other sites
KosinTrouble 0 Posted March 3, 2010 Author Share Posted March 3, 2010 Eh, close. You're right that you need to charge them to draw. You're also correct that it also makes it so that when they do hit their draw, you are more likely to get max value because there is more money in the pot at that point.But be very careful about celebrating merely a won pot. You WANT them to pay for their draw here, you just have to charge a price that makes it incorrect for them to draw with the odds you are offering them. How is there any possibility that someone does have a better hand than you? You flopped the stone cold nuts, and the most outs someone could have to beat you is three (if they hold the case 8 with a higher kicker). It's far far more likely that they have a draw to a hand they think could win (straight or flush) but that in fact is drawing dead.Both the 5way pot and the drawy board make it far more likely that at least one, if not multiple, opponents have a hand that can and will continue. Any two spades will call. 97 or 75 will call. 6x might call. Small PP might call. Lots of gutshot + overs hands (T9, T7, 95 etc) could call. Even unpaired broadway or Ax hands might call. All these hands are the smack dab middle of the range that players, especially loose passives that you'll see at micro stakes, like to limp with. Why should you be scared of a pocket pair crushing you on the later streets? 1) They would have to have 99+, which is unlikely since no one raised preflop. 2) Even then, they'd have to hit a two outer. You should not be worrying about getting it in as a favorite (the "before they suck out on me" mentality), you should be focused on making worse hands pay you.Good stuff! The comment about a better hand in the first statement was wrong, I shouldnt have stated it in there in this case.I definitly not scared of another pocket pair sucking out on me with 2 outs. I am MORE than happy if they want to come into the pot, the mass majority of the time the MONEY IS MINE! I guess I kept mentioning it because twice last night when I had trips again, I got busted by that exact scenario, trip kings lost to trip aces on river and by a runner, runner straight. I was more mentioning it because it will happen once in a while, sadly twice to me last night.Again cant thank you enough for the explination, really appriciate it! I do understand better now the reasoning for betting on every street in this scenario. It is definetly a weak aspect of my game, the whole value betting ect... I will keep reading and finding some video's to watch about it and continue to post some hands for more feedback.Again thanks!Kosin Trouble Link to post Share on other sites
babylondonks 5 Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Best thing to do when you don't agree with someone here is to type it out, and then someone will reply with to reasoning why/if/how you're wrong. Don't be scared.And then somebody else will reply with reasoning about why the other person is wrong Link to post Share on other sites
KosinTrouble 0 Posted March 4, 2010 Author Share Posted March 4, 2010 And then somebody else will reply with reasoning about why the other person is wrong Which I would be happy to read, rather have both sides then I can make my own decisions based on both sides.. The way I look at it, the more info the better at this stage.Kosin Trouble Link to post Share on other sites
Danege 1 Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 And then somebody else will reply with reasoning about why the other person is wrong This is wrong. Link to post Share on other sites
Danege 1 Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Which I would be happy to read, rather have both sides then I can make my own decisions based on both sides.. The way I look at it, the more info the better at this stage.Kosin TroubleThis is good.But just fold pf here. Full serious. Link to post Share on other sites
babylondonks 5 Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 This is wrong.I think you'll find that this is actually wrong Link to post Share on other sites
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