Big Draw In Position

[Acid_Knight 2]

The thing is, checking here is OK on certain occasions for balance and deception purposes, but I probably wouldn't pick this exact spot to do it.I think a check is a more reasonable option if there are fewer people in the pot as opposed to more people because I think that with more people, your hand has such an immense edge because you can often get 1 or 2 callers by betting the flop and you can often get played back at by inferior draws enabling you to get a lot of money in as a pretty substantial favorite. And of course when 2 people come along, you're often putting in only 33% of the money and might have as much as 50% equity, which is a great situation for us.If there's one person in the pot, you can bet, you can check, you can do whatever you want. With 3 other opponents, you should be betting because you have so much equity in the pot and your bet conveys an enormous amount of strength since you are betting into 3 opponents on such a dangerous board. If you get 2 calls, you can choose to barrel or take your free card on the turn, depending on what you think their ranges are and how sticky they're going to be.The other thing to consider is that our draw is very obvious. If a T rolls off, obviously we get paid by anyone with a Q, but anyone without a Q is hating life. If a spade rolls off, that's really obvious as well. By betting the flop we make it easier to get paid off if we hit because people can misread our hands whereas if the turn is a T or a spade and we start putting in lots of money after checking back the flop, what else can we really have other than a big hand?

[nutzzcase 0]

The thing is, checking here is OK on certain occasions for balance and deception purposes, but I probably wouldn't pick this exact spot to do it.I think a check is a more reasonable option if there are fewer people in the pot as opposed to more people because I think that with more people, your hand has such an immense edge because you can often get 1 or 2 callers by betting the flop and you can often get played back at by inferior draws enabling you to get a lot of money in as a pretty substantial favorite. And of course when 2 people come along, you're often putting in only 33% of the money and might have as much as 50% equity, which is a great situation for us.If there's one person in the pot, you can bet, you can check, you can do whatever you want. With 3 other opponents, you should be betting because you have so much equity in the pot and your bet conveys an enormous amount of strength since you are betting into 3 opponents on such a dangerous board. If you get 2 calls, you can choose to barrel or take your free card on the turn, depending on what you think their ranges are and how sticky they're going to be.The other thing to consider is that our draw is very obvious. If a T rolls off, obviously we get paid by anyone with a Q, but anyone without a Q is hating life. If a spade rolls off, that's really obvious as well. By betting the flop we make it easier to get paid off if we hit because people can misread our hands whereas if the turn is a T or a spade and we start putting in lots of money after checking back the flop, what else can we really have other than a big hand?

+1

[babylondonks 5]

SMMFD I've been wrong about one post this week and that was the AK/AQ hand I looked at for 2 seconds.You act like I'm some huge long term loser and that either checking or betting this flop will result in losses when it's a matter of deciding how to optimize profit.SMMFD

There is no right and wrong, only poker. And regarding the bolded, they are one and the same. If you open shoved only aces would you call that profitable? Of course it is, you pick up the blinds. But I'm sure you'd almost feel like a loss because if you raised normally your more likely to have an optimised profit. Poker is about winning the most and losing the least, it's why fixing small leaks can do wonders for a winrate.Also I have no idea whether you are a long term winner, loser or breakeven player. I've seen about 3 graphs of yours from your stint at 6max playing super lag where you won a lot and then lost a lot.

[Ninja Ace 1]

Also I have no idea whether you are a long term winner, loser or breakeven player. I've seen about 3 graphs of yours from your stint at 6max playing super lag where you won a lot and then lost a lot.

LOLremember when you told me about the leaderboards?I'm not arguing about this I don't have a fragile ego. I assure you though, I put in more hands in a month than you do in 6... so unless I'm playing from a cardboard box in the street... wait... sir... SIR, CAN YOU SPARE SOME CHANGE? DADDY NEEDS A LOTTO TICKET AND A NICK OF DA ROCK!

[babylondonks 5]

Well, I'm now confused. If that's what you were aiming for then well done. Otherwise I have no idea what you're on about. You mean the PTR biggest winners of the week thing?

[krup24 0]

Well, I'm now confused. If that's what you were aiming for then well done. Otherwise I have no idea what you're on about. You mean the PTR biggest winners of the week thing?

i think he was winner or top 5 one month at 0.25/0.5don't know his point though

[BaseJester 1]

I think a check is a more reasonable option if there are fewer people in the pot as opposed to more people because I think that with more people, your hand has such an immense edge because you can often get 1 or 2 callers by betting the flop and you can often get played back at by inferior draws enabling you to get a lot of money in as a pretty substantial favorite. And of course when 2 people come along, you're often putting in only 33% of the money and might have as much as 50% equity, which is a great situation for us.

There's a lot going on in that first sentence.1 caller: Doesn't do anything from an equity standpoint, but changes the size of the pot and the hands we're representing2 callers: For any bet size b, we profit half b. (The pot increases by 3b, in which our equity is half or 1.5b, which we paid 1b for.) For example, if we bet the pot of $2.25 on the flop and 2 players call, we profit $1.13ish on the flop action. This is roughly the same profit as no callers.I don't think picking up the dollar either way is the proper focus for our strategy. It's much more a question of setting up the play on the next two streets in the most profitable way. If there's a check/raise, then the villain's range includes dominated draws like 7 8 and 8 T like you said. But there are far more combinations of two-pair and sets in that range. If the money goes in on the flop, it's a big coin flip.

Board: Ks Jh 9sDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	47.325%	  47.00% 	00.32% 			 25594 		  174.50   { AsQs }Hand 1: 	52.675%	  52.35% 	00.32% 			 28507 		  174.50   { KK, JJ, 99, AKs, KQs, QTs+, J9s, Ts8s, 8s7s, AKo, AcJs, AdJs, AhJs, KQo, QTo+ }

[Ninja Ace 1]

Well, I'm now confused. If that's what you were aiming for then well done.

Fist pump succeed.I don't take the intarwebz srsly, so if I ever appear angry there's some form of joke going on.But yeah I was #3 at 50NL when I last left... my game was much sharper than it is now though. But my point was if I was even a slightly losing player I've put in so much volume I'd be broke on the street smokin crack. I'm like a 2-3 BB/100 winrar when 12-16 tabling. Nothing huge but works for me.

[Babylon is Rich 0]

Fist pump succeed.I don't take the intarwebz srsly, so if I ever appear angry there's some form of joke going on.But yeah I was #3 at 50NL when I last left... my game was much sharper than it is now though. But my point was if I was even a slightly losing player I've put in so much volume I'd be broke on the street smokin crack. I'm like a 2-3 BB/100 winrar when 12-16 tabling. Nothing huge but works for me.

So are you rich?

[Acid_Knight 2]

There's a lot going on in that first sentence.1 caller: Doesn't do anything from an equity standpoint, but changes the size of the pot and the hands we're representing2 callers: For any bet size b, we profit half b. (The pot increases by 3b, in which our equity is half or 1.5b, which we paid 1b for.) For example, if we bet the pot of $2.25 on the flop and 2 players call, we profit $1.13ish on the flop action. This is roughly the same profit as no callers.I don't think picking up the dollar either way is the proper focus for our strategy. It's much more a question of setting up the play on the next two streets in the most profitable way. If there's a check/raise, then the villain's range includes dominated draws like 7 8 and 8 T like you said. But there are far more combinations of two-pair and sets in that range. If the money goes in on the flop, it's a big coin flip.

Board: Ks Jh 9sDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	47.325%	  47.00% 	00.32% 			 25594 		  174.50   { AsQs }Hand 1: 	52.675%	  52.35% 	00.32% 			 28507 		  174.50   { KK, JJ, 99, AKs, KQs, QTs+, J9s, Ts8s, 8s7s, AKo, AcJs, AdJs, AhJs, KQo, QTo+ }

I have no problem playing a pot with that slight disadvantage against the tightest of ranges showing we're flipping a coin. A cardinal rule of NLHE is that when you're playing a huge pot, you want to know that you're dominating your opponent or flipping with them, which is our result here.I'm not sure why you're afraid to flip a coin in the worst case scenario here. It's a profitable scenario for us and we can easily bet the flop and turn and fold out one pair hands or take free cards or have different options available to us. I think the thing is that you should be happy to get it in here since even when things are as bad as can be, we're still doing fine.

[Ninja Ace 1]

So are you rich?

My lawyer is...

[Ninja Ace 1]

A cardinal rule of NLHE is that when you're playing a huge pot, you want to know that you're dominating your opponent or flipping with them

TBH I ignore this rule a lot... LOLif you change that to "playing a big street" where there are raises, reraises, and what have you... I definitely follow the rule... but often times I get myself in spots where I've barrelled twice in a three bet pot... don't have much stack left... and have a hand with some kind of equity where it becomes correct/slightly incorrect to stack off

[gary21212121 0]

TBH I ignore this rule a lot... LOLif you change that to "playing a big street" where there are raises, reraises, and what have you... I definitely follow the rule... but often times I get myself in spots where I've barrelled twice in a three bet pot... don't have much stack left... and have a hand with some kind of equity where it becomes correct/slightly incorrect to stack off

whats an example?

[BaseJester 1]

I have no problem playing a pot with that slight disadvantage against the tightest of ranges showing we're flipping a coin.

Keep in mind this is a range that is check-raising the flop against 3 villains and it already includes top pair without no draw. What hands do you think we should add?

A cardinal rule of NLHE is that when you're playing a huge pot, you want to know that you're dominating your opponent or flipping with them, which is our result here.I'm not sure why you're afraid to flip a coin in the worst case scenario here. It's a profitable scenario for us and we can easily bet the flop and turn and fold out one pair hands or take free cards or have different options available to us. I think the thing is that you should be happy to get it in here since even when things are as bad as can be, we're still doing fine.

"Afraid" is a loaded term. I don't think getting it in on the flop is the most profitable. The most fundamental rule of NLHE is, imho, try to make a lot of money. I don't think we should be satisfied with "fine" or coin-flipping in this scenario.If we can double-barrel and win a larger pot on the turn even on a brick, that seems like worthwhile money. But we could be check/raised on either street and then our profitable situation evaporates into a mere gamble. I don't like taking the free card so much, because of your concern about a transparent draw. And it's much more transparent when we bet the flop and check the turn than it is if we check and call.

[BaseJester 1]

If you're looking over my shoulder, how much would you pay to take over this hand after I check the flop but before the turn card comes out?

[gary21212121 0]

wat?

[mtdesmoines 3]

I'm not sure why you're afraid to flip a coin in the worst case scenario here.

[BaseJester 1]

wat?

I check the turn and then suddenly have a pressing juggling engagement. So I auction of this hand and you get to play the rest of it. You get the $24.71 stack and this lovely nut draw in position. How much are you willing to bid for the right to play out the rest of the hand?

[Merby 3]

Actually mtdesmoines, the worst case scenario is your avatar:Facing the PB+J super draw would give me nightmares.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Actually mtdesmoines, the worst case scenario is your avatar:Facing the PB+J super draw would give me nightmares.

Especially when the burn card fails to conceal the slice of one-outer bread just below.

[gary21212121 0]

I check the turn and then suddenly have a pressing juggling engagement. So I auction of this hand and you get to play the rest of it. You get the $24.71 stack and this lovely nut draw in position. How much are you willing to bid for the right to play out the rest of the hand?

wat?

[BaseJester 1]

wat?

Is there something unclear about the question? Do you not understand why I think it's relevant? Or did you understand the question and relevance and wish to express disdain for it without addressing it?

[trystero 0]

I say 'wat' just because I have no way to even begin answering that kind of question

[BaseJester 1]

I say 'wat' just because I have no way to even begin answering that kind of question

It seems pretty straight-forward to me, but maybe that's because it's my question. If I bet the flop, I'm trading the whole value of the check-behind scenario for the whole value of the bet scenario. It seems to me that before making that decision on the flop I should have some intuition about how much those two things are worth.The checking behind scenario is obviously worth something more than the size of the stack, $24.71. A quarter of the time I have the nuts on the turn, so $24.71 + 1/4 ($2.25) = $24.71 + $0.56 = $25.27. I think it would be extremely foolish to let someone buy the hand for this value or less. We're not going to get blown off this hand on the turn very often, so I think it's fair to account for a dollar of pure pot equity.The real question begins when we start putting a value on the possible action for the rest of the hand. How much do you think you can make on this hand in position with money left to play and this draw? The arguments for betting thus far don't seem to assess any value to this. I.e., if we bet, get check-raised and coin flip, we haven't lost anything. Well, we have lost something. And we're balancing this something against an upside of earning a $1.25 by value betting or by winning the pot outright. You may want to argue that the real best-case scenario is double-barrelling the turn and winning the pot uncontested, but I don't see competent villains flat calling this flop that often.It doesn't make sense to me for people to be sure they should bet but unable to quantify what they're risking. You'd all check behind if the pot were 0, right? Personally, I'd set the value of the check-behind hand and stack at about $29.50.

[Babylon is Rich 0]

If you're looking over my shoulder, how much would you pay to take over this hand after I check the flop but before the turn card comes out?