Aces Preflop And Lots Of Action

[droberts 3]

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 331722The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterMP2: $12.80CO: $9.45BTN: $5.85SB: $10.40BB: $11.25UTG: $10.00UTG+1: $6.00Hero (UTG+2): $10.00MP1: $10.00Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG+2 with A A 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, BTN raises to $1, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.90obviously we love this spot but do we 4 bet or shove.. button likes his hand and so does UTG+1 and also we have MP1 behind.

[delved 0]

4bet here to $3.50 and once it gets to the flop crack shove all in no matter what the flop is. It really depends if you want a lot of money or not much. Shoving will probably get you $2.50 which is the pot because that's just WAY too much to call unless they have KK-JJ. You might get a call from the button but it looks like he's going in regardless with his unloaded stack. Try to keep the others in and if you get even one more that's a bonus. Then once again, regardless of the flop, they'll have to get lucky to beat you.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

If the three bet was a normal sized three bet flatting would be ok, but since it's just a minraise too many hands are getting a cute price for me to consider adding deception.You should go ahead and pop it to $4 here.

[KingJames 11]

Even though hero has 100bb, UTG+1 and Button have 60 and 58.5 respectively. Shove, imo

[Sick Boy 0]

I prefer a shove here. It looks weaker and the min raise is screaming KK or QQ that mil snap call you. raising to 4 with all those other players in the pot will totally give your hand away because it will look like you have a monster and are begging for action whereas a shove looks like a kinda "I have AK, TT, JJ, and i dont wana fold. ALL IN BABYYY!!!!!"

[meservery 0]

4bet here to $3.50 and once it gets to the flop crack shove all in no matter what the flop is. It really depends if you want a lot of money or not much. Shoving will probably get you $2.50 which is the pot because that's just WAY too much to call unless they have KK-JJ. You might get a call from the button but it looks like he's going in regardless with his unloaded stack. Try to keep the others in and if you get even one more that's a bonus. Then once again, regardless of the flop, they'll have to get lucky to beat you.

The pot has $3.15 in it when the action gets back to us. A re-raise here should be between 5-6. But since that would be more than 50% of our stack and that sizing essentially turns our hand face up, a shove is best.

[rrumsey 0]

agree don't let villains see a good flop for them and make an easy call just punish them for there wickedness with your aces, its going in blind on any flop so stick it now and save yourself wondering if this is a good flop or not. villains have a lot of their stacks involved , and are probably donking around with KQ s, AJ + suited, J's + hoping to see that they have overs on the flop, or have 2 to a flush, or hit something before they stick it in IMO

[droberts 3]

i kinda thought 4 betting would signal way more strength than a shove..to me a shove does look like AK and daring them to race with me.if i 4 bet to $3-$4 with all those people in the pot, its hard for villains to not think i have AA or KK, and occasionally AK suited. and if they have QQ their going to know that im not 4 betting with JJ or worse and very unlikely i have QQ as well.

[rrumsey 0]

i kinda thought 4 betting would signal way more strength than a shove..to me a shove does look like AK and daring them to race with me.if i 4 bet to $3-$4 with all those people in the pot, its hard for villains to not think i have AA or KK, and occasionally AK suited. and if they have QQ their going to know that im not 4 betting with JJ or worse and very unlikely i have QQ as well.

i think more or less the same range calls or shoves back that will just go with the shove so why not let a donk think he may be catching you with a drawing hand, we get the money in quicker and avoid missing value

[NoBBiR 0]

i kinda thought 4 betting would signal way more strength than a shove..to me a shove does look like AK and daring them to race with me.if i 4 bet to $3-$4 with all those people in the pot, its hard for villains to not think i have AA or KK, and occasionally AK suited. and if they have QQ their going to know that im not 4 betting with JJ or worse and very unlikely i have QQ as well.

It's 10nl bro, don't over think.And two guys have like 60bbs. It's gotta be a shove. If we were deep I'd love a smaller reraise.

[NYRfan1989 0]

It's 10nl bro, don't over think.And two guys have like 60bbs. It's gotta be a shove. If we were deep I'd love a smaller reraise.

Agree, I don't know about what kind of table your at, but usually at these limits people are happy to call shoves light. Your getting called by at least the button here. Also, since their both so short, and your deep it may give off the impression that you are trying to use your stack with a hand like AK to pick it up pre.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 331722The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterMP2: $12.80CO: $9.45BTN: $5.85SB: $10.40BB: $11.25UTG: $10.00UTG+1: $6.00Hero (UTG+2): $10.00MP1: $10.00Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG+2 with A A 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, BTN raises to $1, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.90obviously we love this spot but do we 4 bet or shove.. button likes his hand and so does UTG+1 and also we have MP1 behind.

I don't think we can rely on the villains to pay much attention to bet sizing, I think getting it in PF is OK here.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

I dunno... i mean a $4 bet commits a lot of hands to nearly any flop and we may get a cascade of calls because they will love their pot odds 'n ish. Sure we actually win the pot more often shoving, but I think we can grab a lot of equity getting these peoples to go "whoa that's a big pot, i gotz to seez a flizzop"

[mtdesmoines 3]

I dunno... i mean a $4 bet commits a lot of hands to nearly any flop and we may get a cascade of calls because they will love their pot odds 'n ish. Sure we actually win the pot more often shoving, but I think we can grab a lot of equity getting these peoples to go "whoa that's a big pot, i gotz to seez a flizzop"

yah, I was gonna say this is one of those spots where we're shoving all flops no matter what if we DO only raise vs. shove, so maybe just raising does give us more value over the long run.

[rrumsey 0]

but it allows villain to call with a suited hand, see a board where we have overs and maybe a nut flush draw and get it in against made ( there made flushes and st8 ect) when our hand is behind or in a race. Shoving pre allows us to be ahead everytime when the money is in. And frankly i wouldn't be suprised if 10's + KQoff +, and AJ suited + gets shoved by morons at this stake. that range is plenty big for shoving to remain the better move

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Shoving pre allows us to be ahead everytime when the money is in.

This is the mindset I'm talking about that often kills a players equity. People are so afraid of getting their "money in bad" especially when it affects how your Poker Tracker Blue line will register and it's obviously more important to make your blue line accurate that allow yourself to profit better... People have a bad beat mindset and often blow things out of proportion in the situations where they see their entire stack get shipped the other way. The reality is often that mistakes are made prior to your stack getting in, and more often than not the decision that committed the stack was not the mistake.Lets take an extreme example and say we get $9.90 out of a $10 stack in preflop with aces. Do you really care about the times that you get your 10 cent flop bet in bad when they've made such a massive mistake pre?In this circumstance if you raise to $4 total and then have to shove the flop for $6 and get it in bad it is natural for a person to think they made a larger mistake on the flop but that is simply not true. The earlier the street is the more mistakes become magnified. We also see how early mistakes kill us when we miss a turn value bet / barrel or don't bet enough on the flop and all of a sudden we have issues on the river maximizing our value.I guess a lot of this though process stems from a piece I read with Sklansky about not playing in such a way where it allows your opponent to play optimally against you. Obviously in this particular scenario no one can play optimally because we hold aces and there will be situations where they should be getting their money in pre. This does not excuse us from not playing in a manner that allows our opponents to commit the greatest amount of mistakes without making one ourselves. Not a single hand will be priced in to draw out on our aces with any reasonably sized re-pop, and they will be more likely to play hands to a smaller bet here than a shove.

[droberts 3]

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 334091The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterMP2: $12.80CO: $9.45BTN: $5.85SB: $10.40BB: $11.25UTG: $10.00UTG+1: $6.00Hero (UTG+2): $10.00MP1: $10.00Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG+2 with A A 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, BTN raises to $1, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.90, Hero raises to $4 , 1 fold, BTN calls $3, UTG+1 calls $3.10Flop: ($12.65) A 8 Q (3 players)this is not what happened... i altered their actions.. but for the sake of argument, if i raised to $4 and they both call what do we do now... put them both in?i did 4bet shove and both of these players called by the way but if i had done the above and raised to $4 what would we do on the flop.

[NoBBiR 0]

I guess it really doesn't matter what you do on the flop. You might as well put them in, but you only have to bet $2 into 12.65 to put both of them all-in. Might as well. Either way, neither of them should be folding.

[trystero 0]

shove, lose to jt

[mtdesmoines 3]

This is the mindset I'm talking about that often kills a players equity. .........

Saved me some breath.

[SCS 0]

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 334091The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterMP2: $12.80CO: $9.45BTN: $5.85SB: $10.40BB: $11.25UTG: $10.00UTG+1: $6.00Hero (UTG+2): $10.00MP1: $10.00Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG+2 with A A 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, BTN raises to $1, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.90, Hero raises to $4 , 1 fold, BTN calls $3, UTG+1 calls $3.10Flop: ($12.65) A 8 Q (3 players)this is not what happened... i altered their actions.. but for the sake of argument, if i raised to $4 and they both call what do we do now... put them both in?i did 4bet shove and both of these players called by the way but if i had done the above and raised to $4 what would we do on the flop.

You have top set in a multiway pot on a drawy board with about 1/6 effective stacks in relation to the pot left.In other words, yes shove the rest in now.

[rrumsey 0]

This is the mindset I'm talking about that often kills a players equity. People are so afraid of getting their "money in bad" especially when it affects how your Poker Tracker Blue line will register and it's obviously more important to make your blue line accurate that allow yourself to profit better... People have a bad beat mindset and often blow things out of proportion in the situations where they see their entire stack get shipped the other way. The reality is often that mistakes are made prior to your stack getting in, and more often than not the decision that committed the stack was not the mistake.Lets take an extreme example and say we get $9.90 out of a $10 stack in preflop with aces. Do you really care about the times that you get your 10 cent flop bet in bad when they've made such a massive mistake pre?In this circumstance if you raise to $4 total and then have to shove the flop for $6 and get it in bad it is natural for a person to think they made a larger mistake on the flop but that is simply not true. The earlier the street is the more mistakes become magnified. We also see how early mistakes kill us when we miss a turn value bet / barrel or don't bet enough on the flop and all of a sudden we have issues on the river maximizing our value.I guess a lot of this though process stems from a piece I read with Sklansky about not playing in such a way where it allows your opponent to play optimally against you. Obviously in this particular scenario no one can play optimally because we hold aces and there will be situations where they should be getting their money in pre. This does not excuse us from not playing in a manner that allows our opponents to commit the greatest amount of mistakes without making one ourselves. Not a single hand will be priced in to draw out on our aces with any reasonably sized re-pop, and they will be more likely to play hands to a smaller bet here than a shove.

i like the points you make but its .05-.10 villains will ship so light pre so i still just shove pre thou i have seen people do this w/ KQ off and AJ off and worse at this limit. at a higher limit that probably becomes less optimal of a play

[delved 0]

The flop is now a shove because of guaranteed money plus if they want to draw and become the donkey they're going to have to put all their money in the pot. With them both calling you I have to put one on AQs and one with a lower set perhaps? If you were lucky enough. Either way, shove.

[droberts 3]

The flop is now a shove because of guaranteed money plus if they want to draw and become the donkey they're going to have to put all their money in the pot. With them both calling you I have to put one on AQs and one with a lower set perhaps? If you were lucky enough. Either way, shove.

i dont think they necessarily have to have the exact cards out there, like top two and bottom set.. that would be extreme coolerish.