ScottK2001 0 Posted October 7, 2009 Author Share Posted October 7, 2009 ^^ this & i believe early this is a fold everytime.With respect to the maybe I am playing too high comment, I think I may have been misunderstood. I agree that I want to make the most +EV move every time, I'm just saying that given the competition, that analysis could change. In a low-stakes SNG, I would expect the other players to have much wider ranges than in a high-stakes SNG, thereby making a call more often the correct decision.Just like, for example, if I see someone is playing in 20 SNGs at once at a medium limit, and they make an UTG raise, I can immediately put them on a much tighter range than some random making the same raise. It's just a matter of playing the situation...in my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
cdipierr 0 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 +1 to the buy-in doesn't matter. Presumably you're playing hundreds of these, and your good opponents are too. In that spot, the fact you're playing a $225 doesn't matter, it's a fold based on action.If you're thinking "I'd call at $5", then what you're saying is "$5 doesn't matter to me, but $225 does". Which means you're playing too high. Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 If you're thinking "I'd call at $5", then what you're saying is "$5 doesn't matter to me, but $225 does". Which means you're playing too high.not necessarilyi agree the buy in should not affect what we do. a +EV move is +EV no matter the stakes.but the problem here is the ranges for players in a $5 SnG are drastically different for players in a $215 SnG. here, even if the first guy is spewing or spazzing with top pair or a draw, the second guy isn't. his range crushes us. in a $5, their ranges are much wider. the second guy has a pair or pair+draw much more often. their ranges change, so the most +EV move for us changes. Link to post Share on other sites
qnshustler 0 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 +1 to the buy-in doesn't matter. Presumably you're playing hundreds of these, and your good opponents are too. In that spot, the fact you're playing a $225 doesn't matter, it's a fold based on action.If you're thinking "I'd call at $5", then what you're saying is "$5 doesn't matter to me, but $225 does". Which means you're playing too high.Not at all. My "call at $5" reasoning has nothing to do with the $5 making a difference to me. As has been said, you are generally going to be up against more skilled players at higher buy ins. I'm not for a second saying there aren't morons at every level, but to say that the general quality of play does not improve some as you go to higher level buy ins is silly. Maybe there's a mis-communication somewhere here. If I'm playing a $240 or whatever SNG I'm assuming I'm doing so with the bankroll to handle it...I'm not letting the buy in influence my decision because I don't want to lose the money, but I will make some different basic assumptions about the skill of the competition as I move up buy ins. Is that making sense? Link to post Share on other sites
SGFULTON83 0 Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 The reason the buyin doesn't matter is because at any stakes of poker, we need to be making the most +EV moves. In any stakes, this is prolly a really gross fold (though I will bet that everyone here woulda made the call in the situation). But i mean, look at the action, this does scream big hand b/c it is soooo early in the sng. If the buyin starts making your decisions for you, then you are playing too high and should lower. Even at $225 sngs, there are going to be players that suck. a lot. Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 not necessarilyi agree the buy in should not affect what we do. a +EV move is +EV no matter the stakes.but the problem here is the ranges for players in a $5 SnG are drastically different for players in a $215 SnG. here, even if the first guy is spewing or spazzing with top pair or a draw, the second guy isn't. his range crushes us. in a $5, their ranges are much wider. the second guy has a pair or pair+draw much more often. their ranges change, so the most +EV move for us changes.i stand by my previous 2 posts and say that regardless of if the buy in was $5 or $225, this is a fold. people are reading into the buy in amount too much because they aren't used to playing higher. play a higher sit & go sometime, you'd be surprised at how much stays the same. Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 I agree with the "buy-in shouldn't factor" debate. The only reason I mentioned buy-in in my original post is because I was suggesting people are just as likely to be capable of making moves with TPTK or a flush draw at this level as with any other level and that the most compelling info is the bet/re-raise/RRAI sequence.Cheerch! Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 you'd be surprised at how much stays the same.really? the last $10 sng i played, first hand 2 limpers, i pop it 6x with JJ in the BB, both call. flop is T86 i bet get raised and 3bet, i fold because what can i beat right? 62o and 84o. youre telling me that is in these players ranges at much higher levels? now yeah its an extreme example. but i see hands like this all the time at lower stakes. no, not everyone that plays smaller stakes sucks this bad, and im sure there are bad players at higher stakes. otherwise nobody would play. im just saying that the +EV move may be different depending on your opponents, because their ranges are different. bad higher stakes players should still be somewhat better than bad lower stakes players. but i dont play $200 sng's so maybe i'm way off and you do see lots of limping/calling big raises with 62o.also, im not saying this hand shouldnt be a fold. without a specific read id fold my JJ again there. im just saying that blatantly saying stakes dont matter is wrong. pushing +EV edges is right no matter what stakes, but the +EV edges may be different, regardless of stakes. Link to post Share on other sites
qnshustler 0 Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 really? the last $10 sng i played, first hand 2 limpers, i pop it 6x with JJ in the BB, both call. flop is T86 i bet get raised and 3bet, i fold because what can i beat right? 62o and 84o. youre telling me that is in these players ranges at much higher levels? now yeah its an extreme example. but i see hands like this all the time at lower stakes. no, not everyone that plays smaller stakes sucks this bad, and im sure there are bad players at higher stakes. otherwise nobody would play. im just saying that the +EV move may be different depending on your opponents, because their ranges are different. bad higher stakes players should still be somewhat better than bad lower stakes players. but i dont play $200 sng's so maybe i'm way off and you do see lots of limping/calling big raises with 62o.also, im not saying this hand shouldnt be a fold. without a specific read id fold my JJ again there. im just saying that blatantly saying stakes dont matter is wrong. pushing +EV edges is right no matter what stakes, but the +EV edges may be different, regardless of stakes.+1 this is the point I've been trying to explain. Honestly if this thinking is so terribly wrong its going to take a good argument to convince me. Assuming your bankroll is healthy enough for either tournament so the money itself doesn't matter, are you guys trying to say that the ranges you assign people and the way you play your game in a $10 tournament is the same as a $10,000 one? C'mon.. Link to post Share on other sites
SuperJon 175 Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 +1 this is the point I've been trying to explain. Honestly if this thinking is so terribly wrong its going to take a good argument to convince me. Assuming your bankroll is healthy enough for either tournament so the money itself doesn't matter, are you guys trying to say that the ranges you assign people and the way you play your game in a $10 tournament is the same as a $10,000 one? C'mon..Of course the ranges are going to be different.But for this particular hand. It doesn't matter. At all.I'm folding here in a $200 SNG, and I'm folding here in a $1 SNG. Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 simply given the action it's more likely you're behind or a thin fav here rather than well ahead and with this deep of a stack you have no need to gamble at this point against 2 opponents. i agree that knowing a player's skill level can help you determine ranges at times but in this case it's a clear fold regardless of who you are playing, or their skill levels./thread Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 but in this case it's a clear fold regardless of who you are playingthat is totally wrong, and if you dont see why, then well, whatever. i never said this specific hand is definitely a call at low stakes. i just said you cant make a blanket statement about this. and i would never fold this in a $1. /threadoh, sorry. should i not have posted again? Link to post Share on other sites
SGFULTON83 0 Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 oh, sorry. should i not have posted again?He'll beat you with his baby arm. Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 that is totally wrong, and if you dont see why, then well, whatever. lol, thanks for the laugh Link to post Share on other sites
Dhall901 0 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Having not read all the thrilling commentary yet (and I'm sure it's thrilling), I'm dumping here. You don't have that much invested and Kings aren't holding very well against two other hands. You're most likely up against a set...Just for shits and giggles..can anyone make an arguement for checking the flop? In a four-way you gotta figure someone is all over that flop and it's not the Kings. I don't like that flop at all and might have aired on the site of caution..or thrown a small blocker out there (100-150) to see where I was. Is not c-betting completely dry here? Good to be back.Edit: Quite thrilling. Link to post Share on other sites
droberts 3 Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Thanks again for the good discussion. Even though the results are for the most part irrelevant, I ended up (reluctantly) calling and UTG+1 called as well. Turns out that the button had the set of 7's, and UTG+1 had 7d 8d for top two. I spiked the king on the turn and it held, but now I'm confident that it was the wrong play in the long-run.its always reassuring to have them drawing dead on the turn and have it hold..lolZOMG the 5th 7 on the riverrrrr. Link to post Share on other sites
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