The Existence Of Morality

[vbnautilus 48]

bah, it sounds so not rigorous. :)ok, bedtime for me. was fun, kids. thanks.

gn.

[theresa113 0]

Morality is just the conformance of individuals to what that society deems as good conduct. It comes from culture, not from God. Many cultures are influenced by religion and utilize their dogma to dictate morality but that does not mean morality comes from God. This is why there is a different morality in each culture. You will see similarities because this is how you will create a civilized society, such as not killing, raping, plundering, etc. However, even in these moral categories, the expression of morality differs from culture to culture. Some cultures accept a man raping his wife because it is her marital obligation to have sex with him while other cultures find it to be a criminal act. God does not dictate what is right and wrong. Society dictates it.

[crowTrobot 2]

I was hoping to hear the Hitchens argument that morality evolved as crow pointed out many many threads ago.

you did. hitchens believes in social selection. "moral" behavior leads to social harmony. harmonious social groups are fitter than chaotic groups.

Instead I'm in a circular reasoning explanation that since man decides something is right, that makes it right.

mischaracterization of what is being said. try: if mankind (either voluntarily or via social selection) decides that something is beneficial for human happiness and/or social survival/harmony, we label that thing as moral. moral and "right" are just descriptive terms that mean "beneficial in some way ".

I hold that there is a fixed standard that is outside our views, opinions or decisions.

the subjectivity of morality alone refutes that.

[crowTrobot 2]

I don't think this is an original idea..but if it is than I am officially copyrighting it now and no one can use this without paying me royalties

i meant anybody in this thread. obviously you are the only one arguing that a moral truth is a truth regardless of circumstances.

[speedz99 145]

BG, maybe I missed this from earlier in the thread, but where are you saying that morality comes from? Is it that you're saying it's from reading the bible and being told what to do, or that god inserted a morality center into our bodies/souls when we were created?I know what you're arguing against, but not exactly what you're arguing for, I guess.Also, how's your dog doing?

[crowTrobot 2]

Again you atheist only do the right thing because you fear the consequences?

we do the right thing because the right thing is what either we think or what our instinct tells us works. fear has nothing to do with it.

[theresa113 0]

we do the right thing because the right thing is what either we think or what our instinct tells us works. fear has nothing to do with it.

I am not arguing that morality comes from God, but doesn't fear have something to do with us being moral? If we are not moral, than we are ostracized by other members of society. Isn't it human nature to want to fit in?

[BaseJester 1]

Morality is just the conformance of individuals to what that society deems as good conduct. It comes from culture, not from God. Many cultures are influenced by religion and utilize their dogma to dictate morality but that does not mean morality comes from God. This is why there is a different morality in each culture. You will see similarities because this is how you will create a civilized society, such as not killing, raping, plundering, etc. However, even in these moral categories, the expression of morality differs from culture to culture. Some cultures accept a man raping his wife because it is her marital obligation to have sex with him while other cultures find it to be a criminal act. God does not dictate what is right and wrong. Society dictates it.

I appreciate the humility aspect of cultural relativism. It's good to recognize that our cultural perspective isn't uniquely qualified to judge morality. Taken as a whole, however, I find the concept highly repugnant and defeatist. Part of the culture of the Nazis was to blame the Jews. Who are we to judge? We're individuals who have to follow our own moral compass. The man in your example can choose not to force sex on his wife. I'm sure it happens.Sorry to Godwin the thread.

[crowTrobot 2]

I am not arguing that morality comes from God, but doesn't fear have something to do with us being moral? If we are not moral, than we are ostracized by other members of society. Isn't it human nature to want to fit in?

i meant fear isn't the reason morality exists. if humans were incapable of fear morality would still have evolved and (at least most of us) wouldstill behave the same.

[Spademan 94]

i meant fear isn't the reason morality exists. if humans were incapable of fear morality would still have evolved and (at least most of us) wouldstill behave the same.

Wait. If humans were incapable of fear most humans would still behave the same?That's outlandish, certainly you mean something else.

[crowTrobot 2]

Wait. If humans were incapable of fear most humans would still behave the same?That's outlandish, certainly you mean something else.

not the best wording i guess. i mean positive motivation alone would still lead humans tothe same social moral behavior.

[Balloon guy 158]

BG, maybe I missed this from earlier in the thread, but where are you saying that morality comes from? Is it that you're saying it's from reading the bible and being told what to do, or that god inserted a morality center into our bodies/souls when we were created?I know what you're arguing against, but not exactly what you're arguing for, I guess.Also, how's your dog doing?

Funny, I didn't really think about my side of this much.I do believe we have an inner voice that tells us when something is right, like we have one that tells us there is a God, and with practise we can be more in tune, or less in tune with it.But ultimately I believe God has a way for us to live, that is the correct and moral way. This is the blueprint to compare our actions to. The Bible lays this blueprint out.It's validity can be argued, just as God's existance or whether Christ is worthy of worship. But it's results I think are pretty convincing.And the wife gave an asprin to the dog, and he hasn't acted like he hurts much since. Although I am hurting in the hands after golf and I keep hearing of you saying..'43...yea, that's when arthritist starts'So we are both scheduled to see a doc.

[Balloon guy 158]

not the best wording i guess. i mean positive motivation alone would still lead humans tothe same social moral behavior.

Positive motivation like?Getting wealthGetting womenGaining powerGrabbing landGetting revengeThese will all lead to the same social moral behavior as the high and nobel ones we attribute to be high and noble?I think you have oversimplied this to the point that you will accept anything

[Spademan 94]

not the best wording i guess. i mean positive motivation alone would still lead humans tothe same social moral behavior.

It would be an interesting thought experiment to conceive of humanity without fear.I suspect the changes socially and behaviorally would be immense. Fear -- on so many levels as to make the idea of considering how deep -- is responsible for so much human behavior, so many beliefs and actions that the effect of it's absence would be impossible to overestimate.

[Spademan 94]

Positive motivation like?Getting wealthGetting womenGaining powerGrabbing landGetting revengeThese will all lead to the same social moral behavior as the high and nobel ones we attribute to be high and noble?I think you have oversimplied this to the point that you will accept anything

I find it interesting that everything you've mentioned, every single thing has been conducted on a global level by religion throughout recorded history. That is not to say religion is the cause of these actions, merely a great way for groups of people to perform them with Holy and Sanctified permission from on high.

[crowTrobot 2]

The Bible lays this blueprint out.

what blueprint would that be? the one that includes cultural elitism slavery and genocide?

[theresa113 0]

I would never stop at a stop sign making a right hand turn if I wasn't fearful of a ticket. Human behavior is based on both reward and consequence. You can't take fear out of behavior and morality is judgment on that behavior.

[theresa113 0]

I appreciate the humility aspect of cultural relativism. It's good to recognize that our cultural perspective isn't uniquely qualified to judge morality. Taken as a whole, however, I find the concept highly repugnant and defeatist. Part of the culture of the Nazis was to blame the Jews. Who are we to judge? We're individuals who have to follow our own moral compass. The man in your example can choose not to force sex on his wife. I'm sure it happens.Sorry to Godwin the thread.

I threw the rape example out there because it is more ambiguous. Keep in mind, religion does dictate a large part of reality in most cultures. I am just saying that God does not dictate morality. Religion is man's interpretation of spiritual relationship with God. Since it is an interpretation, that is why there are so many religions. And we do judge all of the time. Our society has created rules and mores that we live by. When someone breaks the rule, we judge and depending on the infraction, we punish. However, this has nothing to do with God intervening. It is cultural development to create a civilized society. In fact, I think to state that God is responsible for morality is being defeatist because then we take no ownership for the laws we make or how they are governed.

[crowTrobot 2]

Positive motivation like?Getting wealthGetting womenGaining powerGrabbing landGetting revengeThese will all lead to the same social moral behavior as the high and nobel ones we attribute to be high and noble?

i'm assuming humanity is smart/evolved enough to where social fitness is valued above individual goals.

[YonYonson 156]

i'm assuming humanity is smart/evolved enough to where social fitness is valued above individual goals.

yeah, thats a safe assumption.

[Balloon guy 158]

I find it interesting that everything you've mentioned, every single thing has been conducted on a global level by religion throughout recorded history. That is not to say religion is the cause of these actions, merely a great way for groups of people to perform them with Holy and Sanctified permission from on high.

So men with an outside moral standard they are called to follow fail to achive this.But men without any outside source of morality, with no guidance at all, have risen above it to evolve a morality that exist today?Yea, I don't think that helps your side of the argument that morality is hard to follow...

[Balloon guy 158]

what blueprint would that be? the one that includes cultural elitism slavery and genocide?

Yea..that's the one.I bet if you just use the old testament you can really show my side in a bad light.I will then bring up atheism's wonderful little track record.You want to compare?

[Balloon guy 158]

I threw the rape example out there because it is more ambiguous. Keep in mind, religion does dictate a large part of reality in most cultures. I am just saying that God does not dictate morality. Religion is man's interpretation of spiritual relationship with God. Since it is an interpretation, that is why there are so many religions. And we do judge all of the time. Our society has created rules and mores that we live by. When someone breaks the rule, we judge and depending on the infraction, we punish. However, this has nothing to do with God intervening. It is cultural development to create a civilized society. In fact, I think to state that God is responsible for morality is being defeatist because then we take no ownership for the laws we make or how they are governed.

But if there is a benchmark that God has set for our actions, then it is our noble goal to seek and find this benchmark, and live accordingly. Hardly a defeatist attitude.And if there is no benchmark for morality, then we are on a never ending road that leads to nothing but our personal opinion of the day's ethics. Hardly a goal that lifts up the soul.

[Spademan 94]

Yea..that's the one.I bet if you just use the old testament you can really show my side in a bad light.I will then bring up atheism's wonderful little track record.You want to compare?

Good luck with that one.Every example you could bring up will be tied to or modeled after religion.The Catholic Churches involvement or the figurehead of the 'non-religious state' being literally deified, replacing one god for another.

[Balloon guy 158]

i'm assuming humanity is smart/evolved enough to where social fitness is valued above individual goals.

In September 2003, National Geographic reported that “there are more slaves today than were seized fromAfrica in four centuries of the trans-Atlantic slave trade.”700,000 people are trafficked across international borders every year according to the Trafficking in Persons Report of 2006.