The Existence Of Morality

[crowTrobot 2]

Both of them?

i would guess credentialed biblical maximalists are in a minority right now, their positions have been so thoroughly trashed.

Saying that morality written by men is a better fit to the current condition of man isn't as good a point as you are pretending it is. Unless you want to say that there is an external benchmark to these two moralities that you can compare and rate them.

hu? i'm comparing them to what modern man considers moral. that IS the benchmark. there are objective reasons why stoning adulterers etc is considered immoral. we don't need god to tell us that it is or isn't - we're smart enough to figure it out on our own.

[crowTrobot 2]

So you agree that the morality God gave us is good for civilization...okay, I agree.

if you agree moral behavior is beneficial for civilization you are agreeing that evolution could explain moral behavior.that's all that needs to be said. the rest is you being stubborn in your ignorance of how evolution works and/or claiming those two things are contradictory without reason then doing whatever you think you can to shift the burden proof.

You are not giving me one shred of proof other than, it would be the only way society could evolve..

nobody said that, and examples of evidence that evolution is the best explanation for moral behavior have been stated over and over again in this thread. if you want to argue that evolution could explain moral behavior but divine intervention is a better (more probable) explanation than evolution, you are free to do that, but you're not gonna get far if you don't understand evolution in the first place.

[vbnautilus 48]

wouldn't I have to show that morality and darwinian evolution are at odds?

... in order to do that you would have to show that morality decreases reproductive success or is a cultural disadvantage. In what other way could it be "at odds" with evolution?

[Balloon guy 158]

i would guess credentialed biblical maximalists are in a minority right now, their positions have been so thoroughly trashed.

says you, by your self, well a couple of atheist selling books agree with you I'm sure.

hu? i'm comparing them to what modern man considers moral. that IS the benchmark. there are objective reasons why stoning adulterers etc is considered immoral. we don't need god to tell us that it is or isn't - we're smart enough to figure it out on our own.

Oh..the benchmark is whatever we decide is the benchmark...and 'we' is anyone in power?nice set of morality you got there...you should really change the name though as morality and what you are describing are two different things.

[Balloon guy 158]

if you agree moral behavior is beneficial for civilization you are agreeing that evolution could explain moral behavior.that's all that needs to be said. the rest is you being stubborn in your ignorance of how evolution works and/or claiming those two things are contradictory without reason then doing whatever you think you can to shift the burden proof.

So you get to declare morality evolved...because you say so, and I am required to prove it didn't...prove a negative...sounds like I found a new FSM.

nobody said that, and examples of evidence that evolution is the best explanation for moral behavior have been stated over and over again in this thread.

examples being you said that it happened? I guess that's an example...of sorts. Wow you are easy on your credibilty levels when your the one 'proving' something.

if you want to argue that evolution could explain moral behavior but divine intervention is a better (more probable) explanation than evolution, you are free to do that, but you're not gonna get far if you don't understand evolution in the first place.

I know..evolution is the perfect mechanism where everything gets better and better with no direction, purpose or reason...you have the perfect argument, here's something that is correct, because it is correct, and to argue it is not correct shows that you don't understand it.I know this has not entered your brain yet, but I don't buy evolution, it's not logical to argue the entire philosophy and it's own mechanics are contrary to itself...so your belief that I don't understand is actually my understanding it fully.

[Balloon guy 158]

... in order to do that you would have to show that morality decreases reproductive success or is a cultural disadvantage. In what other way could it be "at odds" with evolution?

So all I have to do is show morality decreases reproductive success..and that's all? And after I attempt to you will watch my back when crow pulls out his "but but but but you don't understand evolution' argument that he thinks is the trump card that saves his lack of arguments?

[crowTrobot 2]

Oh..the benchmark is whatever we decide is the benchmark...and 'we' is anyone in power?

modern social consensus is the only meaningful benchmark.

[Balloon guy 158]

modern social consensus is the only meaningful benchmark.

I didn't get the form to fill out to be included in that consensus..or does Barak Obama represent us all in what is morality?Oh that's right, you throw out 'truths' about how 'everyone' thinks this way or that all the time.Why should this be excluded from your primary arguing techniquePersonally, if evolution is right and there is no God, then I would hope that the strongest nation should get to say what is right and what is wrong...cause then we could totally screw over France...and George W. Bush would have been 100% right in invading Iraq all day long. No one could tell him he was wrong!

[crowTrobot 2]

So you get to declare morality evolved...because you say so, and I am required to prove it didn't...prove a negative...sounds like I found a new FSM.

still more mischaracterization used as an excuse to attempt misdirection from the point, shifting the burden of proof from your own hypothesis you made in the OP.

examples being you said that it happened? I guess that's an example...of sorts. Wow you are easy on your credibilty levels when your the one 'proving' something.

it's obvious examples of evidence were given in this thread - low level "moral" behavior in other species, progressive emergence of morality throughout human history etc.when you can't counter something attack your opponent's credibility. more attempted misdirection... getting really boring.

I know..evolution is the perfect mechanism where everything gets better and better with no direction, purpose or reason...you have the perfect argument, here's something that is correct, because it is correct, and to argue it is not correct shows that you don't understand it.I know this has not entered your brain yet, but I don't buy evolution, it's not logical to argue the entire philosophy and it's own mechanics are contrary to itself...so your belief that I don't understand is actually my understanding it fully.

the thing is your nonsensical statements about evolution (such as the above) which you have made about 50 of in this thread, directly demonstrate that you lack even a rudimentary understanding. that is not an attack. it is an objective observation any person who knows anything about the subject would make.consider that it hasn't entered YOUR brain yet that you are taking a theory 99%+ of the world's entire scientific community has accepted as proven beyond a reasonable doubt based on empirical evidence, and claiming you understand it fully without any formal education on the subject and can reject it based on your own reasoning using simplistic philosophical principals. the intellectual dishonesty and arrogance it takes to do that is truly mind-boggling. all you're doing in this thread is demonstrating how self-deluded you really are. again that's meant an objective observation to help you, not as an attack.

[crowTrobot 2]

I didn't get the form to fill out to be included in that consensus..

everyone gets the form when they are born.

[Balloon guy 158]

everyone gets the form when they are born.

What do they do with the millions of forms that aborted babies never get?

[Balloon guy 158]

still more mischaracterization used as an excuse to attempt misdirection from the point, shifting the burden of proof from your own hypothesis you made in the OP. it's obvious examples of evidence were given in this thread - low level "moral" behavior in other species, progressive emergence of morality throughout human history etc.when you can't counter something attack your opponent's credibility. more attempted misdirection... getting really boring.the thing is your nonsensical statements about evolution (such as the above) which you have made about 50 of in this thread, directly demonstrate that you lack even a rudimentary understanding. that is not an attack. it is an objective observation any person who knows anything about the subject would make.consider that it hasn't entered YOUR brain yet that you are taking a theory 99%+ of the world's entire scientific community has accepted as proven beyond a reasonable doubt based on empirical evidence, and claiming you understand it fully without any formal education on the subject and can reject it based on your own reasoning using simplistic philosophical principals. the intellectual dishonesty and arrogance it takes to do that is truly mind-boggling. all you're doing in this thread is demonstrating how self-deluded you really are. again that's meant an objective observation to help you, not as an attack.

Lol at thisand a note tht you like the number 50

[vbnautilus 48]

So all I have to do is show morality decreases reproductive success..and that's all?

Yes. But this means showing that genes which lead to morality will produce animals that are less likely to reproduce. It doesn't mean showing that a single animal died because of morality.Rob I really think that your claim that morality contradicts evolution isn't the way to go. It is possible that morality came about by some means other than evolution, but morality is not at all in conflict with evolution. It very well could have come about by evolution, and there are coherent evolutionary accounts of its origin. I think arguments to the effect of "it didn't" evolve are arguable, but "it couldn't have evolved" isn't going to get off the ground. That's not to say your whole position that morality is imbued by god needs to rest on this, it just isn't going to be an argument that strengthens your position at all. Both evolution and your position posit that morality is a benefit, even though it sometimes requires an individual to sacrifice.

[crowTrobot 2]

Lol at this

no recent survey has shown it's less than 95% and most indicate it's 99%+. among scientists working infields directly related to evolution it may be 99.9%. not a laughing matter for you.of course about 40% of scientists are theists who believe evolution is "part of god's plan" or whatever, butthat's a different issue. the number that actually dispute that speciation occurs by descent with modification is vanishingly small.

and a note tht you like the number 50

i guessed about 50. in retrospect that may have been an underestimate.

[Balloon guy 158]

Yes. But this means showing that genes which lead to morality will produce animals that are less likely to reproduce. It doesn't mean showing that a single animal died because of morality.Rob I really think that your claim that morality contradicts evolution isn't the way to go. It is possible that morality came about by some means other than evolution, but morality is not at all in conflict with evolution. It very well could have come about by evolution, and there are coherent evolutionary accounts of its origin. I think arguments to the effect of "it didn't" evolve are arguable, but "it couldn't have evolved" isn't going to get off the ground. That's not to say your whole position that morality is imbued by god needs to rest on this, it just isn't going to be an argument that strengthens your position at all. Both evolution and your position posit that morality is a benefit, even though it sometimes requires an individual to sacrifice.

I am being required to prove why morality didn't evolve. In response to an argument crow made quoting whats his name that said morality did evolve. I think the burden of proof is being shifted here seeing as how it was presented by your side, and when quesitoned the only proof I've seen is:A. X animal shows signs of moralityB. It would be goodNo examples of no morality existing, no examples of the stages of morality evolving, no argument that morality is in the genes because we can trace them using X. Not even a last 500 hundreds years with written history we see how morality changed.Just 'hey morality exists...so it evolved'.I'm just stirring the pot now because I don't think you guys have accepted how lacking in information you have presented or have available to provide.

[Balloon guy 158]

modern social consensus is the only meaningful benchmark.

Hey btw, when half the country decides that it's not wrong to cheat a little on your taxes to the IRS, then it is no longer a sin right?I am so going to keep an eye open for that study.

[crowTrobot 2]

Hey btw, when half the country decides that it's not wrong to cheat a little on your taxes to the IRS, then it is no longer a sin right?

sin is a religious concept that has nothing to do with social moral consensus.

[crowTrobot 2]

I am being required to prove why morality didn't evolve.

sure, because in your OP you implied morality could not have come from anywhere but god, and you've stated over and overin this thread that moral behavior is contrary to evolution. the only thing we need to do is show that morality could have evolved and god isn't necessary to explain it, and that has beendone quite thoroughly here. in fact you've essentually agreed that morality could have evolved without realizing it, even though you keep denying thepossibility.

[vbnautilus 48]

I am being required to prove why morality didn't evolve. In response to an argument crow made quoting whats his name that said morality did evolve. I think the burden of proof is being shifted here seeing as how it was presented by your side, and when quesitoned the only proof I've seen is:A. X animal shows signs of moralityB. It would be goodNo examples of no morality existing, no examples of the stages of morality evolving, no argument that morality is in the genes because we can trace them using X. Not even a last 500 hundreds years with written history we see how morality changed.Just 'hey morality exists...so it evolved'.I'm just stirring the pot now because I don't think you guys have accepted how lacking in information you have presented or have available to provide.

See I didn't think we were trying to prove that morality evolved, only that it could have, which would be enough to counter your claim that it couldn't have.

[Balloon guy 158]

See I didn't think we were trying to prove that morality evolved, only that it could have, which would be enough to counter your claim that it couldn't have.

Oh good. since that is now the excepted standard for evidence to support a claim, I now proclaim God made the universe.That ought to shut up some of you for a while

[vbnautilus 48]

Oh good. since that is now the excepted standard for evidence to support a claim, I now proclaim God made the universe.That ought to shut up some of you for a while

Well, he could have.

[Balloon guy 158]

Well, He could have.

I agree

[crowTrobot 2]

Oh good. since that is now the excepted standard for evidence to support a claim, I now proclaim God made the universe.

you mean "could have made", not "made", and not all claims are equal. evolution explaining moral behavior is a simple empirical hypothesis supported by objective evidence that fits a well established pattern of evolution explaining everything else about us. a universal creator is an extraordinary hypothesis unsupported by objective evidence that doesn't fit any existing pattern of explanation.

[Spademan 94]

says you, by your self, well a couple of atheist selling books agree with you I'm sure.

Yes. And these guys: "As a historic representative of the scientific profession and designated advisor to the Federal Government in matters of science, the Academy states unequivocally that the tenets of "creation science" are not supported by scientific evidence, that creationism has no place in a science curriculum at any level, that its proposed teaching would be impossible in any constructive sense for wellinformed and conscientious science teachers, and that its teaching would be contrary to the nation's need for a scientifically literate citizenry and for a large, well-informed pool of scientific and technical personnel." --- National Academy of Sciences "The theory of evolution by natural selection was first clearly formulated in 1859, and for over a century it has been tested and improved by the research of many thousands of scientists: not only by biologists and geologists, but also by chemists and physicists ... The theory of evolution continues to be refined as new evidence becomes available. Only one thing in science is not open to change: its demand that every explanation be based on observation or experiment, that these be in principle repeatable, and that new evidence be considered. Scientific creationists adopt an entirely different approach in their attempt to explain the natural world ... The methodology and conclusions of scientists and "scientific creationists" are therefore incompatible, and the term "scientific creationism" is a contradiction in terms, since it has no basis in science." ---Academy of Science of the Royal Society of Canada "Scientific evidence indicates beyond any doubt that life has existed on Earth for billions of years. This life has evolved through time producing vast numbers of species of plants and animals, most of which are extinct." --- American Geological Institute "As stated in The American Biology Teacher by the eminent scientist Theodosius Dobzhansky (1973), "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution." This often-quoted assertion accurately illuminates the central, unifying role of evolution in nature, and therefore in biology... The fossil record and the diversity of extant organisms, combined with modern techniques of molecular biology, taxonomy and geology, provide exhaustive examples and powerful evidence for genetic variation, natural selection, speciation, extinction and other well-established components of current evolutionary theory." --- National Association of Biology Teachers "There is no longer a debate among scientists over whether evolution has taken place." --- National Science Teachers Association " The explanatory power of the theory of evolution has been recognised, however, by all biologists, and their work has expanded and developed it." --- Australian Academy of Science "As noted in a booklet issued by the National Academy of Sciences, 'Evolution pervades all biological phenomena. To ignore that it occurred or to classify it as a form of dogma is to deprive the student of the most fundamental organizational concept in the biological sciences'". --- Statement by authors of numerous biology textbooks "Evolution is the only currently acceptable scientific theory for the development of life on earth, and is supported by an enormous body of evidence from a wide variety of disciplines, including, but not limited to, biology, chemistry, geology, and physics. Across all of these scientific disciplines, the data are in congruence with regards to the theory of evolution, and there are no data that contradict the fundamental truth of evolution. Such consilience gives credence and support to the concept that all life is related and that it has evolved over time primarily through the process of natural selection." --- Association of Southeastern Biologists "Discoveries in phylogenetics, paleontology, genetics, and developmental and molecular biology give us the capacity to test our theories and to develop new ones, using a vast store of empirical data and increasingly sophisticated methods. Continued opportunity to perform such tests has resulted in further support for descent with modification, justifying the fundamental role that evolution plays in our understanding of humanity's place in nature." --- California Academy of Sciences "The great majority of scientists and teachers of science in the primary schools, high schools, colleges, and universities of Georgia are both evolutionists and Christians ... Based upon overwhelming scientifically verifiable evidence to date, most scientists, regardless of religious preference, think that the earth and all forms of life evolved over a period of several billion years. Evolution can be viewed as a creative process continuing over long periods of time. The extensive evidence of evolution is not in opposition to the variety of religious concepts or creation by a supreme being. The causative beginning of primeval appearance of matter or life in our universe is not at issue. The evidence of evolution does not claim to reveal the primal source of energy, matter, or life." --- Georgia Academy of Science "Creationist organizations ... claim to know of evidence that supports the idea of a young earth and that shows evolution to be impossible. Much of this "evidence" is inaccurate, out of date, and not accepted by recognized paleontologists and biologists. The total membership of these "scientific" creationist groups constitutes only a fraction of one percent of the scientific personnel in this country. Most of them are not trained in biology or geology, the areas in which professional judgments are made in the field of evolutionary theory. They often misrepresent the positions of respected scientists and quote them out of context to support their own views before audiences and government bodies." --- Iowa Academy of Science "There is overwhelming acceptance by scientists of all disciplines that evolution is consistent with the weight of a vast amount of evidence. The understanding of the processes underlying evolution has provided the foundation upon which many of the tremendous advances in agriculture and medicine and theoretical biology have been built." --- Kentucky Academy of Science "The understanding of the processes underlying evolution has provided the foundation upon which many of the tremendous advances in agriculture and medicine and theoretical biology have been built. Differences among scientists over questions of how evolution was accomplished do not obscure the basic agreement that evolution has occurred. Most people who subscribe to religious views have developed belief systems that are compatible with evolution. There is a widespread consensus among theologians that biblical accounts of creation are misunderstood if they are treated as literal scientific explanations." --- Kentucky Academy of Science "Whereas organic evolution is amenable to repeated observation and testing, and whereas the ideas of creation are not amenable to verification by observation and experimentation ... therefore be it resolved that the terms "creation science" or "scientific creationism" are artificial and have been used to refer to purported areas of knowledge that do not exist." --- Louisiana Academy of Sciences "Creationists claim that biological evolution is a religious tenet; in fact it is one of the cornerstones of modern science. More than 50 years ago the North Carolina Academy of Science adopted a resolution declaring evolution an established law of nature" --- North Carolina Academy of Science "Whereas, science is a systematic method of investigation based on continuous experimentation, observation, and measurement leading to evolving explanations of natural phenomena, explanations which are continuously open to further testing; and whereas, evolution fully satisfies these criteria ... the OAS urges citizens, educational authorities, and legislators to oppose the compulsory inclusion in science education curricula of beliefs that are not amenable to the process of scrutiny, testing, and revision that is indispensable to science." --- Ohio Academy of Science "Whereas evolutionary theory is the indispensable foundation for the understanding of physical anthropology and biology; Whereas evolution is a basic component of many aspects of archeology, cultural anthropology, and linguistics; Whereas evolution is a basic component of allied disciplines such as the earth sciences and a cornerstone of 20thcentury science in general; Whereas a century of scientific research has confirmed the reality of evolution as a historical process, and the concept of evolution, in all its diversity, has explained the scientifically known evidence and successfully predicted fruitful paths of further research ... Be it moved that the American Anthropological Association affirms the necessity of teaching evolution as the best scientific explanation of human and nonhuman biology and the key to understanding the origin and development of life, because the principles of evolution have been tested repeatedly and found to be valid according to scientific criteria." --- American Anthropological Association "Evolution and cosmology represent two of the unifying concepts of modern science. There are few scientific theories more firmly supported by observations than these: Biological evolution has occurred and new species have arisen over time, life on Earth originated more than a billion years ago, and most stars are at least several billion years old. Overwhelming evidence comes from diverse sources - the structure and function of DNA, geological analysis of rocks, paleontological studies of fossils, telescopic observations of distant stars and galaxies - and no serious scientist questions these claims." --- The American Association of Physics Teachers "The theory of biological evolution is based on hundreds of years of scientific observation and experimentation and tens of thousands of scientific publications. It provides students with a unifying concept that explains the incredibly rich diversity of living things and their capacity to change and evolve over time to adapt to changing environments. It is a central component of modern biology and biotechnology. Evolution is an active field of research in which new discoveries continue to increase our knowledge and understanding of the specific processes and paths that biological evolution has followed over the millions of years that life has existed on earth. --- American Chemical Society "Scientific theories, like evolution and relativity and plate tectonics, are hypotheses that have survived extensive testing and repeated verification. Scientific theories are therefore the best-substantiated statements that scientists can make to explain the organization and operation of the natural world. Thus, a scientific theory is not equal to a belief, a hunch, or an untested hypothesis. Our understanding of Earth's development over its 4.5 billion-year history and of life's gradual evolution has achieved the status of scientific theory." --- American Geophysical Union "Evolution is both a scientific fact and a scientific theory." --- The Paleontological Society "A theory in science, such as the atomic theory in chemistry and the Newtonian and relativity theories in physics, is not a speculative hypothesis, but a coherent body of explanatory statements supported by evidence. The theory of evolution has this status." --- American Institute of Biological Science "Evolution is a basic component of many aspects of anthropology (including physical anthropology, archeology, cultural anthropology, and linguistics) and is a cornerstone of modern science, being central to biology, geology, and astronomy; The principles of evolution have been tested repeatedly and found to be valid according to scientific criteria... This consensus of scientific opinion is derived from biology, geology, paleontology, primatology, and archaeology." --- Resolution of the Executive Board of the American Anthropological Association "Principles of evolution are an essential part of the knowledge base of psychology." --- American Psychological Association "Evolution is factual and essential to biological education." --- American Society of Parasitologists "Evolution is a widely accepted scientific theory that all living things have shared ancestors from which they have diverged. It is one of the most fundamental building blocks in science, touching nearly every other discipline including those that directly effect humans, such as medicine and agriculture." --- Ecological Society of America "The GSA supports educating students in genetics, and consequently feels it important to express its views on the teaching of evolution in elementary and secondary schools. The GSA strongly endorses such teaching, as genetics and evolution are two very closely interwoven disciplines. In fact, evolution might be summarized as population genetics over time." --- Genetics Society of America "We geologists find incontrovertible evidence in the rocks that life has existed here on Earth for several billions of years and that it has evolved through time." --- Geological Society of America "People who oppose evolution, and seek to have creationism or intelligent design included in science curricula, seek to dismiss and change the most successful way of knowing ever discovered. They wish to substitute opinion and belief for evidence and testing." --- Botanical Society of America "The evidence is abundant and irrefutable. Life has changed drastically over earth's history." --- Society for Amateur Scientists "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution." --- Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology "Ideas about the structure and evolution of the universe, including Earth and its life forms, are unifying concepts in science." --- Society of Physics Students "The historical fact of evolution, as common descent with modification for life on earth, and the concepts used to study evolutionary change in living systems, provide the unifying theme for all biological knowledge." --- Society of Systematic Biologists "The fossil record of vertebrates unequivocally supports the hypothesis that vertebrates have evolved through time ... Paleontologists may dispute, on the basis of the available evidence, the tempo and mode of evolution in a particular group at a particular time, but they do not argue about whether evolution took place: that is a fact." --- Society of Vertebrate Paleontology "The Kentucky Paleontological Society (KPS) is opposed to any attempt to teach creationism or omit mention of evolution from public school instruction. " --- Kentucky Paleontological Society "Our planet is billions of years old, and life has existed on it for a large part of that time ... Evolution occurred in the past and is still occurring today." --- California Science Teachers Association "The age of the Earth as determined by various methods including radiometric dating of meteorites and of the Earth's rocks is approximately 4.6 billion years. Creationist criticisms of that age are based upon misinterpretation of valid data and upon obsolete data." --- New Orleans Geological Society "Biological evolution is a fact." --- Pennsylvania Council of Professional Geologists And these guys: "Evolutionary theory ranks with Einstein's theory of relativity as one of modern science's most robust, generally accepted, thoroughly tested and broadly applicable concepts. From the standpoint of science, there is no controversy." --- Louise Lamphere, President of the American Anthropological Association; Mary Pat Matheson, President of the American Assn of Botanical Gardens and Arboreta; Eugenie Scott, President of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists; Robert Milkey, Executive Officer of the American Astronomical Society; Barbara Joe Hoshiazaki, President of the American Fern Society; Oliver A. Ryder, President of the American Genetic Association; Larry Woodfork, President of the American Geological Institute; Marcia McNutt, President of the American Geophysical Union; Judith S. Weis, President of the American Institute of Biological Sciences; Arvind K.N. Nandedkar, President of the American Institute of Chemists; Robert H. Fakundiny, President of the American Institute of Professional Geologists; Hyman Bass, President of the American Mathematical Society; Ronald D. McPherson, Executive Director of the American Meteorological Society; John W. Fitzpatrick, President of the American Ornithologists' Union; George Trilling, President of the American Physical Society; Martin Frank, Executive Director of the American Physiological Society; Steven Slack, President of the American Phytopathological Society; Raymond D. Fowler, Chief Executive Officer American Psychological Association; Alan Kraut, Executive Director of the American Psychological Society; Catherine E. Rudder, Executive Director of the American Political Science Association; Robert D. Wells, President of the American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology; Abigail Salyers, President of the American Society for Microbiology; Brooks Burr, President of the American Society of Ichthylogists & Herpetologists; Thomas H. Kunz, President of the American Society of Mammalogists; Mary Anne Holmes, President of the Association for Women Geoscientists; Linda H. Mantel, President of the Association for Women in Science; Ronald F. Abler, Executive Director of the Association of American Geographers; Vicki Cowart, President of the Association of American State Geologists; Nils Hasselmo, President of the Association of American Universities; Thomas A. Davis, President of the Assn. of College & University Biology Educators; Richard Jones, President of the Association of Earth Science Editors; Rex Upp, President of the Association of Engineering Geologists; Robert R. Haynes, President of the Association of Southeastern Biologists; Kenneth R. Ludwig, Director of the Berkeley Geochronology Center; Rodger Bybee, Executive Director of the Biological Sciences Curriculum Study; Mary Dicky Barkley, President of the Biophysical Society; Judy Jernstedt, President of the Botanical Society of America; Ken Atkins, Secretary of the Burlington-Edison Cmte. for Science Education; Austin Dacey, Director of the Center for Inquiry Institute; Blair F. Jones, President of the Clay Minerals Society; Barbara Forrest, President of the Citizens for the Advancement of Science Education; Timothy Moy, President of the Coalition for Excellence in Science and Math Education; K. Elaine Hoagland, National Executive Officer Council on Undergraduate Research; David A. Sleper, President of the Crop Science Society of America; Steve Culver, President of the Cushman Foundation for Foraminiferal Research; Pamela Matson, President of the Ecological Society of America; Larry L. Larson, President of the Entomological Society of America; Royce Engstrom, Chair of the Board of Directors of the EPSCoR Foundation; Robert R. Rich, President of the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology; Stephen W. Porges, President of the Federation of Behavioral, Psychological and Cognitive Sciences; Roger D. Masters, President of the Foundation for Neuroscience and Society; Kevin S. Cummings, President of the Freshwater Mollusk Conservation Society; Sharon Mosher, President of the Geological Society of America; Dennis J. Richardson, President of the Helminthological Society of Washington; Aaron M. Bauer, President of the Herpetologists' League; William Perrotti, President of the Human Anatomy & Physiology Society; Lorna G. Moore, President of the Human Biology Association; Don Johanson, Director of the Institute of Human Origins; Harry McDonald, President of the Kansas Association of Biology Teachers; Steve Lopes, President of the Kansas Citizens For Science; Margaret W. Reynolds, Executive Director of the Linguistic Society of America; Robert T. Pennock, President of the Michigan Citizens for Science; Cornelis "Kase" Klein,President of the Mineralogical Society of America; Ann Lumsden, President of the National Association of Biology Teachers; Darryl Wilkins, President of the National Association for Black Geologists & Geophysicists; Steven C. Semken, President of the National Association of Geoscience Teachers; Kevin Padian, President of the National Center for Science Education; Tom Ervin, President of the National Earth Science Teachers Association; Gerald Wheeler, Executive Director of the National Science Teachers Association; Meredith Lane, President of the Natural Science Collections Alliance; Cathleen May, President of the Newkirk Engler & May Foundation; Dave Thomas, President of the New Mexicans for Science and Reason; Marshall Berman, President (elect) of the New Mexico Academy of Science; Connie J. Manson, President of the Northwest Geological Society; Lydia Villa-Komaroff, Vice Pres. for Research Northwestern University; Gary S. Hartshorn, President of the Organization for Tropical Studies; Warren Allmon, Director of the Paleontological Research Institution; Patricia Kelley, President of the Paleontological Society; Henry R. Owen, Director of Phi Sigma: The Biological Sciences Honor Society; Charles Yarish, President of the Phycological Society of America; Barbara J. Moore, President and CEO of Shape Up America!; Robert L. Kelly, President of the Society for American Archaeology; Richard Wilk, President of the Society for Economic Anthropology; Marvalee Wake, President of the Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology; Gilbert Strang, Past-Pres. & Science Policy Chair of the Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics; Prasanta K. Mukhopadhyay, President of the Society for Organic Petrology; Howard E. Harper, Executive Director of the Society for Sedimentary Geology; Nick Barton, President of the Society for the Study of Evolution; Deborah Sacrey, President of the Society of Independent Professional Earth Scientists; J.D. Hughes, President of the Society of Petroleum Evaluation Engineers; Lea K. Bleyman, President of the Society of Protozoologists; Elizabeth Kellogg, President of the Society of Systematic Biologists; David L. Eaton, President of the Society of Toxicology; Richard Stuckey, President of the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology; Pat White, Executive Director of the Triangle Coalition for Science and Technology Education; Richard A. Anthes, President of the University Corporation for Atmospheric Research.Let's not forget these guys: "The evolutionary history of organisms has been as extensively tested and as thoroughly corroborated as any biological concept [...] Teaching religious ideas mislabeled as science is detrimental to scientific education: It sets up a false conflict between science and religion, misleads our youth about the nature of scientific inquiry, and thereby compromises our ability to respond to the problems of an increasingly technological world. Our capacity to cope with problems of food production, health care, and even national defense will be jeopardized if we deliberately strip our citizens of the power to distinguish between the phenomena of nature and supernatural articles of faith. "Creation-science" simply has no place in the public-school science classroom." ---Nobel Laureates: Luis W. Alvarez, Carl D. Anderson, Christian B. Anfinsen, Julius Axelrod, David Baltimore, John Bardeen, Paul Berg, Hans A. Bethe, Konrad Bloch, Nicolaas Bloembergen, Michael S. Brown, Herbert C. Brown, Melvin Calvin, S. Chandrasekhar, Leon N. Cooper, Allan Cormack, Andre Cournand, Francis Crick, Renato Dulbecco, Leo Esaki, Val L. Fitch, William A. Fowler, Murray Gell-Mann, Ivar Giaever, Walter Gilbert, Donald A. Glaser, Sheldon Lee Glashow, Joseph L. Goldstein, Roger Guillemin, Roald Hoffmann, Robert Hofstadter, Robert W. Holley, David H. Hubel, Charles B. Huggins, H. Gobind Khorana, Arthur Kornberg, Polykarp Kusch, Willis E. Lamb, Jr., William Lipscomb, Salvador E. Luria, Barbara McClintock, Bruce Merrifield, Robert S. Mulliken, Daniel Nathans, Marshall Nirenberg, John H. Northrop, Severo Ochoa, George E. Palade, Linus Pauling, Arno A. Penzias, Edward M. Purcell, Isidor I. Rabi, Burton Richter, Frederick Robbins, J. Robert Schrieffer, Glenn T. Seaborg, Emilio Segre, Hamilton O. Smith, George D. Snell, Roger Sperry, Henry Taube, Howard M. Temin, Samuel C. C. Ting, Charles H. Townes, James D. Watson, Steven Weinberg, Thomas H. Weller, Eugene P. Wigner, Kenneth G. Wilson, Robert W. Wilson, Rosalyn Yalow, Chen Ning Yang. State Academies of Science: The California Academy of Sciences, The Florida Academy of Sciences, The Idaho Academy of Science, The Indiana Academy of Science, The Iowa Academy of Science, The Kentucky Academy of Science, The Mississippi Academy of Sciences, The Nebraska Academy of Sciences, The New Mexico Academy of Science, The New York Academy of Sciences, The North Dakota Academy of Science, The Ohio Academy of Science, The South Carolina Academy of Science, The Tennessee Academy of Science, the Vermont Academy of Arts and Sciences, The West Virginia Academy of Sciences, The Wisconsin Academy of Sciences, Arts and Letters. Other Scientific Organizations: The American Anthropological Association, The American Institute of Biological Sciences, The Association of American Medical Colleges, The Astronomical Society of the Pacific, The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, The Southern California Skeptics, The Southern California Academy of Sciences.Even these guys: "Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin." --- Albanian Academy of Sciences; National Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences, Argentina; Australian Academy of Science; Austrian Academy of Sciences; Bangladesh Academy of Sciences; The Royal Academies for Science and the Arts of Belgium; Academy of Sciences and Arts of Bosnia and Herzegovina; Brazilian Academy of Sciences; Bulgarian Academy of Sciences; The Academies of Arts, Humanities and Sciences of Canada; Academia Chilena de Ciencias; Chinese Academy of Sciences; Academia Sinica, China, Taiwan; Colombian Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences; Croatian Academy of Arts and Sciences; Cuban Academy of Sciences; Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic; Royal Danish Academy of Sciences and Letters; Academy of Scientific Research and Technology, Egypt; Académie des Sciences, France; Union of German Academies of Sciences and Humanities; The Academy of Athens, Greece; Hungarian Academy of Sciences; Indian National Science Academy; Indonesian Academy of Sciences; Academy of Sciences of the Islamic Republic of Iran; Royal Irish Academy; Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities; Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Italy; Science Council of Japan; Kenya National Academy of Sciences; National Academy of Sciences of the Kyrgyz Republic; Latvian Academy of Sciences; Lithuanian Academy of Sciences; Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts; Academia Mexicana de Ciencias; Mongolian Academy of Sciences; Academy of the Kingdom of Morocco; The Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences; Academy Council of the Royal Society of New Zealand; Nigerian Academy of Sciences; Pakistan Academy of Sciences; Palestine Academy for Science and Technology; Academia Nacional de Ciencias del Peru; National Academy of Science and Technology, The Philippines; Polish Academy of Sciences; Académie des Sciences et Techniques du Sénégal; Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts; Singapore National Academy of Sciences; Slovak Academy of Sciences; Slovenian Academy of Sciences and Arts; Academy of Science of South Africa; Royal Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences of Spain; National Academy of Sciences, Sri Lanka; Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences; Council of the Swiss Scientific Academies; Academy of Sciences, Republic of Tajikistan; Turkish Academy of Sciences; The Uganda National Academy of Sciences; The Royal Society, UK; US National Academy of Sciences; Uzbekistan Academy of Sciences; Academia de Ciencias Físicas, Matemáticas y Naturales de Venezuela; Zimbabwe Academy of Sciences; The Caribbean Academy of Sciences; African Academy of Sciences; The Academy of Sciences for the Developing World (TWAS); The Executive Board of the International Council for Science (ICSU).

[JoeyJoJo 18]

National Academy of SciencesAcademy of Science of the Royal Society of Canada American Geological Institute National Association of Biology Teachers National Science Teachers Association Australian Academy of Science Statement by authors of numerous biology textbooks Association of Southeastern Biologists California Academy of Sciences Georgia Academy of Science Iowa Academy of Science Kentucky Academy of Science Kentucky Academy of Science Louisiana Academy of Sciences North Carolina Academy of Science Ohio Academy of Science American Anthropological Association The American Association of Physics Teachers American Chemical Society American Geophysical Union The Paleontological Society American Institute of Biological Science Resolution of the Executive Board of the American Anthropological Association American Psychological Association American Society of ParasitologistsEcological Society of America Genetics Society of America Geological Society of America Botanical Society of America Society for Amateur Scientists Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology Society of Physics Students Society of Systematic Biologists Society of Vertebrate Paleontology Kentucky Paleontological Society California Science Teachers Association New Orleans Geological Society Pennsylvania Council of Professional Geologists Louise Lamphere, President of the American Anthropological Association; Mary Pat Matheson, President of the American Assn of Botanical Gardens and Arboreta; Eugenie Scott, President of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists; Robert Milkey, Executive Officer of the American Astronomical Society; Barbara Joe Hoshiazaki, President of the American Fern Society; Oliver A. Ryder, President of the American Genetic Association; Larry Woodfork, President of the American Geological Institute; Marcia McNutt, President of the American Geophysical Union; Judith S. Weis, President of the American Institute of Biological Sciences; Arvind K.N. Nandedkar, President of the American Institute of Chemists; Robert H. Fakundiny, President of the American Institute of Professional Geologists; Hyman Bass, President of the American Mathematical Society; Ronald D. McPherson, Executive Director of the American Meteorological Society; John W. Fitzpatrick, President of the American Ornithologists' Union; George Trilling, President of the American Physical Society; Martin Frank, Executive Director of the American Physiological Society; Steven Slack, President of the American Phytopathological Society; Raymond D. Fowler, Chief Executive Officer American Psychological Association; Alan Kraut, Executive Director of the American Psychological Society; Catherine E. Rudder, Executive Director of the American Political Science Association; Robert D. Wells, President of the American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology; Abigail Salyers, President of the American Society for Microbiology; Brooks Burr, President of the American Society of Ichthylogists & Herpetologists; Thomas H. Kunz, President of the American Society of Mammalogists; Mary Anne Holmes, President of the Association for Women Geoscientists; Linda H. Mantel, President of the Association for Women in Science; Ronald F. Abler, Executive Director of the Association of American Geographers; Vicki Cowart, President of the Association of American State Geologists; Nils Hasselmo, President of the Association of American Universities; Thomas A. Davis, President of the Assn. of College & University Biology Educators; Richard Jones, President of the Association of Earth Science Editors; Rex Upp, President of the Association of Engineering Geologists; Robert R. Haynes, President of the Association of Southeastern Biologists; Kenneth R. Ludwig, Director of the Berkeley Geochronology Center; Rodger Bybee, Executive Director of the Biological Sciences Curriculum Study; Mary Dicky Barkley, President of the Biophysical Society; Judy Jernstedt, President of the Botanical Society of America; Ken Atkins, Secretary of the Burlington-Edison Cmte. for Science Education; Austin Dacey, Director of the Center for Inquiry Institute; Blair F. Jones, President of the Clay Minerals Society; Barbara Forrest, President of the Citizens for the Advancement of Science Education; Timothy Moy, President of the Coalition for Excellence in Science and Math Education; K. Elaine Hoagland, National Executive Officer Council on Undergraduate Research; David A. Sleper, President of the Crop Science Society of America; Steve Culver, President of the Cushman Foundation for Foraminiferal Research; Pamela Matson, President of the Ecological Society of America; Larry L. Larson, President of the Entomological Society of America; Royce Engstrom, Chair of the Board of Directors of the EPSCoR Foundation; Robert R. Rich, President of the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology; Stephen W. Porges, President of the Federation of Behavioral, Psychological and Cognitive Sciences;Roger D. Masters, President of the Foundation for Neuroscience and Society; Kevin S. Cummings, President of the Freshwater Mollusk Conservation Society; Sharon Mosher, President of the Geological Society of America; Dennis J. Richardson, President of the Helminthological Society of Washington; Aaron M. Bauer, President of the Herpetologists' League; William Perrotti, President of the Human Anatomy & Physiology Society; Lorna G. Moore, President of the Human Biology Association; Don Johanson, Director of the Institute of Human Origins; Harry McDonald, President of the Kansas Association of Biology Teachers; Steve Lopes, President of the Kansas Citizens For Science; Margaret W. Reynolds, Executive Director of the Linguistic Society of America; Robert T. Pennock, President of the Michigan Citizens for Science; Cornelis "Kase" Klein,President of the Mineralogical Society of America; Ann Lumsden, President of the National Association of Biology Teachers; Darryl Wilkins, President of the National Association for Black Geologists & Geophysicists; Steven C. Semken, President of the National Association of Geoscience Teachers; Kevin Padian, President of the National Center for Science Education; Tom Ervin, President of the National Earth Science Teachers Association; Gerald Wheeler, Executive Director of the National Science Teachers Association; Meredith Lane, President of the Natural Science Collections Alliance; Cathleen May, President of the Newkirk Engler & May Foundation; Dave Thomas, President of the New Mexicans for Science and Reason; Marshall Berman, President (elect) of the New Mexico Academy of Science; Connie J. Manson, President of the Northwest Geological Society; Lydia Villa-Komaroff, Vice Pres. for Research Northwestern University; Gary S. Hartshorn, President of the Organization for Tropical Studies; Warren Allmon, Director of the Paleontological Research Institution; Patricia Kelley, President of the Paleontological Society; Henry R. Owen, Director of Phi Sigma: The Biological Sciences Honor Society; Charles Yarish, President of the Phycological Society of America; Barbara J. Moore, President and CEO of Shape Up America!; Robert L. Kelly, President of the Society for American Archaeology; Richard Wilk, President of the Society for Economic Anthropology; Marvalee Wake, President of the Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology; Gilbert Strang, Past-Pres. & Science Policy Chair of the Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics; Prasanta K. Mukhopadhyay, President of the Society for Organic Petrology; Howard E. Harper, Executive Director of the Society for Sedimentary Geology; Nick Barton, President of the Society for the Study of Evolution; Deborah Sacrey, President of the Society of Independent Professional Earth Scientists; J.D. Hughes, President of the Society of Petroleum Evaluation Engineers; Lea K. Bleyman, President of the Society of Protozoologists; Elizabeth Kellogg, President of the Society of Systematic Biologists; David L. Eaton, President of the Society of Toxicology; Richard Stuckey, President of the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology; Pat White, Executive Director of the Triangle Coalition for Science and Technology Education; Richard A. Anthes, President of the University Corporation for Atmospheric Research.Nobel Laureates: Luis W. Alvarez, Carl D. Anderson, Christian B. Anfinsen, Julius Axelrod, David Baltimore, John Bardeen, Paul Berg, Hans A. Bethe, Konrad Bloch, Nicolaas Bloembergen, Michael S. Brown, Herbert C. Brown, Melvin Calvin, S. Chandrasekhar, Leon N. Cooper, Allan Cormack, Andre Cournand, Francis Crick, Renato Dulbecco, Leo Esaki, Val L. Fitch, William A. Fowler, Murray Gell-Mann, Ivar Giaever, Walter Gilbert, Donald A. Glaser, Sheldon Lee Glashow, Joseph L. Goldstein, Roger Guillemin, Roald Hoffmann, Robert Hofstadter, Robert W. Holley, David H. Hubel, Charles B. Huggins, H. Gobind Khorana, Arthur Kornberg, Polykarp Kusch, Willis E. Lamb, Jr., William Lipscomb, Salvador E. Luria, Barbara McClintock, Bruce Merrifield, Robert S. Mulliken, Daniel Nathans, Marshall Nirenberg, John H. Northrop, Severo Ochoa, George E. Palade, Linus Pauling, Arno A. Penzias, Edward M. Purcell, Isidor I. Rabi, Burton Richter, Frederick Robbins, J. Robert Schrieffer, Glenn T. Seaborg, Emilio Segre, Hamilton O. Smith, George D. Snell, Roger Sperry, Henry Taube, Howard M. Temin, Samuel C. C. Ting, Charles H. Townes, James D. Watson, Steven Weinberg, Thomas H. Weller, Eugene P. Wigner, Kenneth G. Wilson, Robert W. Wilson, Rosalyn Yalow, Chen Ning Yang. State Academies of Science: The California Academy of Sciences, The Florida Academy of Sciences, The Idaho Academy of Science, The Indiana Academy of Science, The Iowa Academy of Science, The Kentucky Academy of Science, The Mississippi Academy of Sciences, The Nebraska Academy of Sciences, The New Mexico Academy of Science, The New York Academy of Sciences, The North Dakota Academy of Science, The Ohio Academy of Science, The South Carolina Academy of Science, The Tennessee Academy of Science, the Vermont Academy of Arts and Sciences, The West Virginia Academy of Sciences, The Wisconsin Academy of Sciences, Arts and Letters. Other Scientific Organizations: The American Anthropological Association, The American Institute of Biological Sciences, The Association of American Medical Colleges, The Astronomical Society of the Pacific, The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, The Southern California Skeptics, The Southern California Academy of Sciences.Albanian Academy of Sciences; National Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences, Argentina; Australian Academy of Science; Austrian Academy of Sciences; Bangladesh Academy of Sciences; The Royal Academies for Science and the Arts of Belgium; Academy of Sciences and Arts of Bosnia and Herzegovina; Brazilian Academy of Sciences; Bulgarian Academy of Sciences; The Academies of Arts, Humanities and Sciences of Canada; Academia Chilena de Ciencias; Chinese Academy of Sciences; Academia Sinica, China, Taiwan; Colombian Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences; Croatian Academy of Arts and Sciences; Cuban Academy of Sciences; Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic; Royal Danish Academy of Sciences and Letters; Academy of Scientific Research and Technology, Egypt; Académie des Sciences, France; Union of German Academies of Sciences and Humanities; The Academy of Athens, Greece; Hungarian Academy of Sciences; Indian National Science Academy; Indonesian Academy of Sciences; Academy of Sciences of the Islamic Republic of Iran; Royal Irish Academy; Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities; Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Italy; Science Council of Japan; Kenya National Academy of Sciences; National Academy of Sciences of the Kyrgyz Republic; Latvian Academy of Sciences; Lithuanian Academy of Sciences; Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts; Academia Mexicana de Ciencias; Mongolian Academy of Sciences; Academy of the Kingdom of Morocco; The Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences; Academy Council of the Royal Society of New Zealand; Nigerian Academy of Sciences; Pakistan Academy of Sciences; Palestine Academy for Science and Technology; Academia Nacional de Ciencias del Peru; National Academy of Science and Technology, The Philippines; Polish Academy of Sciences; Académie des Sciences et Techniques du Sénégal; Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts; Singapore National Academy of Sciences; Slovak Academy of Sciences; Slovenian Academy of Sciences and Arts; Academy of Science of South Africa; Royal Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences of Spain; National Academy of Sciences, Sri Lanka; Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences; Council of the Swiss Scientific Academies; Academy of Sciences, Republic of Tajikistan; Turkish Academy of Sciences; The Uganda National Academy of Sciences; The Royal Society, UK; US National Academy of Sciences; Uzbekistan Academy of Sciences; Academia de Ciencias Físicas, Matemáticas y Naturales de Venezuela; Zimbabwe Academy of Sciences; The Caribbean Academy of Sciences; African Academy of Sciences; The Academy of Sciences for the Developing World (TWAS); The Executive Board of the International Council for Science (ICSU).

Hey BG, don't worry about the size of this list. He's got the Kentucky Academy of Science in there three times, so it's not as daunting as it seems.