The Existence Of Morality

[vbnautilus 48]

btw Has anybody ever explored the number of people needed to reproduce without ever needing to inbreed?

Yes, I think they have done this research in West Virginia.

[Balloon guy 158]

This is a very interesting question to me. My speculation is that we went from individual-mindedness, to thinking of ourselves as part of small groups (families/tribes), and now we are in the process of fighting that tribal group mind as we expand to a more global mind. But this is one of the things I am currently investigating -- doing an experiment to try and understand what brain systems are involved in the way we empathize more with members of our small social group.... do we naturally empathize with everyone but learn to turn it off for those we hate? Or do we have to learn to empathize with those close to us? I think its the former, but we'll see what the data say.

Have I told you that I am jealous of your life..except the going to hell part I mean..

I think it's best for all of us if we behave more selflessly. The only way that individual selfishness - the pursuit of pleasure above all else, greed, etc. -- makes sense is if you envision yourself as totally separate from everything else, which is a mental illusion. If you recognize that you are part and parcel of everything and everyone else, you recognize that you have to treat them well - they are in a very real sense part of you. Thinking of my "self" as being totally contained within the boundaries of my physical body is a very narrow view of what I am. Everything is interconnected.

If evolution is true ( it's not ) then I think you may have a reasonable explanation of why morality means something.Now how do you convince the other 6.79 billion people to live this way?

[vbnautilus 48]

Have I told you that I am jealous of your life..except the going to hell part I mean..

And then you remember what they (don't) pay me to do this....

If evolution is true ( it's not ) then I think you may have a reasonable explanation of why morality means something.Now how do you convince the other 6.79 billion people to live this way?

By example. And by carrying around large signs with ominous phrases threatening them with horrific consequences if they don't comply.

[brvheart 1,753]

The problem is, in my experience, only people who are willing and able to base their thought construct on reason/evidence/logic are capable of this particular skill-set.

If you resurrected Aquinas and brought him in here, things would get interesting, because Aquinas actually had a mean grasp of logic, reason and rhetoric.

[Balloon guy 158]

By example. And by carrying around large signs with ominous phrases threatening them with horrific consequences if they don't comply.

This is so crazy...it just might work....

[Spademan 94]

RE: brvheart

Faith usually makes this impossible

I qualified it, for people like Aquinas. =P

[crowTrobot 2]

Caring for the elderlyFeeding the poorCaring for a severly retarded childNot polluting

it's not hard at all to visualize how empathetic behavior could be a positive adaptation for a social species.

[Balloon guy 158]

it's not hard at all to visualize how empathetic behavior could be a positive adaptation for a social species already fully developed.

fyp

[crowTrobot 2]

fyp

fix your objectivity

[Balloon guy 158]

fix your objectivity

Can't. I am firmly in the graps of faith's strangle hold on reason

[KramitDaToad 0]

Wow, good point that I missed.Yea, if morality came from religion, than animals exibiting morality wouldn't follow, since they can't read.I think I would say that religion and morality are seperate. Morality ie the rules of right and wrong, are independant of our religious codes, writings and teachings. In fact the Bible is nothing more than a users manual, pointing us to what is already in existance, telling us what God thinks, wants and does for us.There already is a foundational right and wrong. Finding it through either thought process, reading, or experience doesn't change it's pre-existing condition.

Excellent. If this were the case all would be born equal, with everyone having access to their own moral compass. From there free-will allows us to listen to this moral compass as we see fit.Now explain how people are born as sociopaths using the "God as a source" model. Who gets 'chosen' to be unable to connect to this compass and be condemned to hell?

[Balloon guy 158]

Excellent. If this were the case all would be born equal, with everyone having access to their own moral compass. From there free-will allows us to listen to this moral compass as we see fit.Now explain how people are born as sociopaths using the "God as a source" model. Who gets 'chosen' to be unable to connect to this compass and be condemned to hell?

That's easy..every single person born since Adam and Eve. We are all 'born into sin' Our sin nature is present in all of us.I am sometimes surprises from you since you supposedly had a Chrisitan upbrining, how badly you seem to understand what the Bible says. Maybe this is why you fell away.There is no one without sin, all deserve punishment.Christ offered Himself to bear that punishment.Because he did, we have a free pass into Heaven. Your tickets been paid, you cannot earn it, work for it, use a magic handshake, or pay your way into Heaven. No matter how good you are, how often you choose not to sin, no matter how many times you don't rape a baby, you cannot get to Heaven on your own. However you can go for free if you ask.Something within the reach of everyone, the simple act of asking for forgiveness. Something man has tried to hide behind church rules and dogma to control and sometimes enslave the masses. But ultimately the message Christ gave us is that we are all deserving of eternal seperation from God, but He was willing to pay your bill in full, even the bill of the people who haven't made their choice yet.As far as the obligitory; "What about the people who haven't heard etc., or in this case "The people who have pyschological issues" I don't know. But God is a bigger God than my personal worldview and logic, I'm sure He has an answer that He isn't required to share with us because we demand an answer.I do know that everyone readin this is without excuse though.

[Spademan 94]

That's easy..every single person born since Adam and Eve. We are all 'born into sin' Our sin nature is present in all of us.There is no one without sin, all deserve punishment.Christ offered Himself to bear that punishment.Because he did, we have a free pass into Heaven. Your tickets been paid, you cannot earn it, work for it, use a magic handshake, or pay your way into Heaven. No matter how good you are, how often you choose not to sin, no matter how many times you don't rape a baby, you cannot get to Heaven on your own. However you can go for free if you ask.Something within the reach of everyone, the simple act of asking for forgiveness. Something man has tried to hide behind church rules and dogma to control and sometimes enslave the masses. But ultimately the message Christ gave us is that we are all deserving of eternal seperation from God, but He was willing to pay your bill in full, even the bill of the people who haven't made their choice yet.I do know that everyone readin this is without excuse though.

"God, who is perfect, made imperfect beings. Innocent and childlike, he left them with a baby sitter, Satan. After these imperfectly created beings (created by a perfect being) were duped by Satan (God's baby sitter) and ate from a tree, all of their inbred children and further spawn (all of humanity) were damned to be sinners as soon as they are babies fresh out of the womb. Crying, helpless, seemingly innocent little God Damned baby sinners. God, being all-knowing, knew all of this before hand. However, he knew that it would be OK that he created this weird little set of events because he could just create a baby son who he can design to have slaughtered for the sake of a 'do over'. So yes, indeed all of this weird shit was done by the omnipotent God... but this big, sacrifice filled, designed shenanigans that ended up with you being Baby Damned has an easy way out. All you have to do is ask." Ya, that makes perfect sense.

As far as the obligitory; "What about the people who haven't heard etc., or in this case "The people who have pyschological issues" I don't know. But God is a bigger God than my personal worldview and logic, I'm sure He has an answer that He isn't required to share with us because we demand an answer.

"Uh oh, something that even I can't warp into some kind of rationalization? Guess it's time to turn off the logic switch and turn on the God. Whoo hoo, faith kicks reasons ASS in a crunch!"

[Balloon guy 158]

"God, who is perfect, made imperfect beings. Innocent and childlike, he left them with a baby sitter, Satan. After these imperfectly created beings (created by a perfect being) were duped by Satan (God's baby sitter) ate from a tree, all of their inbred children and further spawn (all of humanity) were damned to be sinners as soon as they are babies fresh out of the womb. Crying, helpless, seemingly innocent little God Damned baby sinners. God, being all-knowing, knew all of this before hand. However, he knew that it would be OK that he created this weird little set of events because he could just create a baby son who he can design to have slaughtered for the sake of a 'do over'. So yes, indeed all of this weird shit was done by the omnipotent God... but this big, sacrifice filled, designed shenanigans that ended up with you being Baby Damned has an easy way out. All you have to do is ask." Ya, that makes perfect sense. "Uh oh, something that even I can't warp into some kind of rationalization? Guess it's time to turn off the logic switch and turn on the God. Whoo hoo, faith kicks reasons ASS in a crunch!"

I know you have a cadre of 16-21 year old boys who think you are special, but could you do your dance for them elsewhere. it's boring.

[Spademan 94]

I know you have a cadre of 16-21 year old boys who think you are special, but could you do your dance for them elsewhere. it's boring.

I'm no priest, I don't keep young boys around.But if young men get to see how fucking stupid your cults story is and choose to treat it accordingly based on reading it, I have no problem with that.

[Plus one 0]

I know you have a cadre of 16-21 year old boys who think you are special, but could you do your dance for them elsewhere. it's boring.

Dont you know BG that the longer he is ignored the nastier his stinkbombs become.

[Spademan 94]

Dont you know BG that the longer he is ignored the nastier his stinkbombs become.

I am so very enamored of this term. It gives me a little chuckle every time.However, as per usual your statement is utterly false, unless you are allowing for random chance. My stinkbombs (hehe) and their venom are solely dependent on the point I am making, whether it is a thread starter or a response to something I have read.My eloquence is lacking the unmatched breadth, width and technique to accurately capture in words just how little your attention means to me. Most everyone's posts here or where ever are simply fodder for my scathing and critical bouts of expression.You are interchangeable in that regard and at no time need to address, acknowledge or type directly to me to provide the refuse (waste, garbage, rubbish, discarded trash) necessary for this noble or entertaining or boredom-crushing or frivolous outpouring of awesome.

[KramitDaToad 0]

That's easy..every single person born since Adam and Eve. We are all 'born into sin' Our sin nature is present in all of us.I am sometimes surprises from you since you supposedly had a Chrisitan upbrining, how badly you seem to understand what the Bible says. Maybe this is why you fell away.There is no one without sin, all deserve punishment.Christ offered Himself to bear that punishment.Because he did, we have a free pass into Heaven. Your tickets been paid, you cannot earn it, work for it, use a magic handshake, or pay your way into Heaven. No matter how good you are, how often you choose not to sin, no matter how many times you don't rape a baby, you cannot get to Heaven on your own. However you can go for free if you ask.Something within the reach of everyone, the simple act of asking for forgiveness. Something man has tried to hide behind church rules and dogma to control and sometimes enslave the masses. But ultimately the message Christ gave us is that we are all deserving of eternal seperation from God, but He was willing to pay your bill in full, even the bill of the people who haven't made their choice yet.

I appreciate all of the above, however the bolded part is where it falls apart. Unless I really misunderstand Christianity, the asking for forgiveness must be genuine.The sinner must regret their sin, must have remorse.For a person who is born a sociopath this is impossible. They have no concious, no concept of right and wrong so they can never genuinely regret their sins, and as you say none are born without sinThus they are born with no chance of ever being saved. This is in contradiction to the claim that heaven is available to all.Therefore the 'morals from God' model failsEDIT: I was going to add more, but I'll do so later. I want you to focus on the above

[Balloon guy 158]

I appreciate all of the above, however the bolded part is where it falls apart. Unless I really misunderstand Christianity, the asking for forgiveness must be genuine.The sinner must regret their sin, must have remorse.For a person who is born a sociopath this is impossible. They have no concious, no concept of right and wrong so they can never genuinely regret their sins, and as you say none are born without sinThus they are born with no chance of ever being saved. This is in contradiction to the claim that heaven is available to all.Therefore the 'morals from God' model failsEDIT: I was going to add more, but I'll do so later. I want you to focus on the above

I agree that the asking of forgiveness must be genuine for it to be effectual.Your argument is that since there are people who 'can't' be reached with the understanding of their sin, this 'way to heaven' is flawed and therefore loses credibility?Well, first I would say a person can be a sociopath and very much use deductive reasoning to make a choice about their life. They may not feel it, but they aren't required to feel saved, only ask. They learn to function in society, marrying fathering children etc without feeling anything...why can't they make a calculated decision about their actions with feeling right or wrong?Second, do you not think that God can reach everyone at a level that allows that person to be given the full opporunity to accept/reject His plan of salvation? My personal opinion is that God has infinite knowledge, He probably has a handle on the kind of problems I can dream up in my finite perspective. To demand He reveal His plan for every extreme problem isn't a realistic expectation. If some guy on his death bed begins the sinners prayer but doesn't get past Dear God, does that mean his heart didn't qualify him to recieve God's forgiveness? He made a plan to give salavation to everyone, I am comfortable with the idea that He will judge with a wisdom that is beyond my ability to understand, with a fairness that He possesses.

[KramitDaToad 0]

I agree that the asking of forgiveness must be genuine for it to be effectual.Your argument is that since there are people who 'can't' be reached with the understanding of their sin, this 'way to heaven' is flawed and therefore loses credibility?

No, they can understand their sin, but without morals they don't feel it is wrong. When you apologise for doing something that you don't feel is wrong are you being genuine?I'm not saying that 'this way to heaven' is flawed. I'm showing you that your claim that morals come from God ultimately contradicts other teachings from the Bible.

Well, first I would say a person can be a sociopath and very much use deductive reasoning to make a choice about their life. They may not feel it, but they aren't required to feel saved, only ask. They learn to function in society, marrying fathering children etc without feeling anything...why can't they make a calculated decision about their actions with feeling right or wrong?

Calculated => no remorse => no salvation.If it doesn't feel wrong, asking for forgiveness will always be disingenuous.All they need to be genuine is a moral compass yet if God is the source of this, then it is obviously his choice that these people can't be saved.

Second, do you not think that God can reach everyone at a level that allows that person to be given the full opporunity to accept/reject His plan of salvation? My personal opinion is that God has infinite knowledge, He probably has a handle on the kind of problems I can dream up in my finite perspective. To demand He reveal His plan for every extreme problem isn't a realistic expectation. If some guy on his death bed begins the sinners prayer but doesn't get past Dear God, does that mean his heart didn't qualify him to recieve God's forgiveness? He made a plan to give salavation to everyone, I am comfortable with the idea that He will judge with a wisdom that is beyond my ability to understand, with a fairness that He possesses.

If, when finally pressed to a logical position that on the face of it defeats your argument, you play what is effectively the "God works in mysterious ways" card, you are admitting that there is no possible path the debate take that could possibly change your mind.Therefore this was never a debate, it was you preaching.

[Balloon guy 158]

No, they can understand their sin, but without morals they don't feel it is wrong. When you apologise for doing something that you don't feel is wrong are you being genuine?

As far as my wife is concerned I am..

I'm not saying that 'this way to heaven' is flawed. I'm showing you that your claim that morals come from God ultimately contradicts other teachings from the Bible.

hmm..I think you have made a connection that is dubious at best.

Calculated => no remorse => no salvation.If it doesn't feel wrong, asking for forgiveness will always be disingenuous.All they need to be genuine is a moral compass yet if God is the source of this, then it is obviously his choice that these people can't be saved.

Again... you have invented the argument that you must feel a certain way in order to act a certain way. And if you are without feelings, then you can never perform an action with meaning.If this is your position, than I think you are wrong.

If, when finally pressed to a logical position that on the face of it defeats your argument, you play what is effectively the "God works in mysterious ways" card, you are admitting that there is no possible path the debate take that could possibly change your mind.Therefore this was never a debate, it was you preaching.

Yea, that's what I did, God works in mysterious ways.Sorry that I don't have a handle on all of God's motives, thoughts, plans and decisions.I will pray that He reveal everything in the existance of the world so that I might better answer your strawman arguements next time in a manner that you find acceptable.Or I can allow you to be wrong.Hmmm tough choice..it would be cool to know everything...

[KramitDaToad 0]

As far as my wife is concerned I am..

nh

Again... you have invented the argument that you must feel a certain way in order to act a certain way. And if you are without feelings, then you can never perform an action with meaning.If this is your position, than I think you are wrong.

The meaning of repent is to feel sorry for your wrong doings, and again I'm sure the Bible says that repetence is necessary to be saved.Of course I could just sit here and say "Jesus, forgive me my sins and save me" without believing in God or Jesus or that any of my sins are all that bad and Pascal's wager goes up in a puff of smoke.That would really piss brvheart off

[Sportsmack 0]

I know you have a cadre of 16-21 year old boys who think you are special, but could you do your dance for them elsewhere. it's boring.

there aren't possibly enough of these to express how awesome this post is.

[KramitDaToad 0]

there aren't possibly enough of these to express how awesome this post is.

SS, by any chance have you ever had an IQ test?Did you pass?

[Balloon guy 158]

I think you will find when it comes to sin it is about intent not action. This I believe is biblical too.Of course I could just sit here and say "Jesus, forgive me my sins and save me" without believing in God or Jesus and Pascal's wager goes up in a puff of smoke.That would really piss brvheart off

Well you are not the first person to delve into what does it mean to ask forgiveness? I know I struggled with it for a while, wondering if I did it wrong, because everyone else seemed to be sure about their salvation, and I wasn't.I think the answer lies much more into the Bible passage the sys that God grants us the grace to be forgiven.Ephesians 2:9For it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not of yourself, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast.If your intent was required, your conscience effort if you will, then the above passage should read 'not by most works'Nor is it in the physical action of manipulating your vocal cords to physically create the vibrations in the air to say the sinner's prayer.Many believe that the steps to salvation are: God puts a calling unto your life, you respond favorably, He grants you the grace to receive faith to ask for forgiveness, asking in a manner that counts.So in effect, our input is simplying to look at the situation and desire it. I believe God puts the calling on all our lives, some just bury it completely the second it rears it's head, others hmm and haaa for years, others put it off till their death bed etc.Arguing that a sociopath can't feel implies that God can't overcome a chemical/physical imbalance, which by definition means He's not God.