The Existence Of Morality

[vbnautilus 48]

This really is such a good example of the circular reasoning and complete fabrications of reality your side makes.You imply that I am doing something 'wrong' by worshiping an idol, which is only wrong if there is a God who said don't worship them.

The bolded is false. The reason idol worship is a "bad" thing, is because worshiping symbols/concepts/ideas instead of that which is actually here leads to a disconnection from that which is actually here, which has a myriad of undesirable consequences. Doing addictive drugs is not bad because god said it was, it's bad because it ruins your life. Once you put a mental concept on something, a name, you separate yourself from it. That's why when moses asks god what is name is, he responds "I am that I am". Being itself is to be worshipped, not some name or concept or "god". The Tao Te Ching says it nicely: The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal Name. The unnamable is the eternally real. Naming is the origin of all particular things.

In fact if I am the one in denial about my 'host' than I gain and lose nothing.

Incorrect, my friend. You have to consider the possibility that you are missing something huge by living in a world of fictional ideas rather than having a true relationship with the natural world that you are in and of. There are consequences to not knowing who you really are.

[solderz 0]

No, you are trying to pretend you have made some point.You haven't, in fact you have done the opposite, you have proven you know almost nothing about Christianity. And that the only way you can make any point is to first poison the debate with lies.And you have proven that you want to grab any straw, no matter how ridiculous and use it to fight against the tide of truth storming down on your head as you flail about like a wild man, hoping that someone comes to your rescue soon before you have to face your inadequacies.

Why does anyone argue with Balloon guy on religion. He has repeatedly proven he is incapable of critical thought on the subject. Let the man live in his God-parasite fantasies, but don't actually try to talk logically to him. There is absolutely no point.

[crowTrobot 2]

Why does anyone argue with Balloon guy on religion. He has repeatedly proven he is incapable of critical thought on the subject. Let the man live in his God-parasite fantasies, but don't actually try to talk logically to him. There is absolutely no point.

there's a point to this thread, but it has nothing to do with him. he's just a catalyst.

[Balloon guy 158]

Why do you want to worship somebody who orders you to worship them? That's horrible, in my opinion. It's like me giving a homeless person some money and expecting them to bow down to me for the rest of the day. A little bit like your 'heaven', where you worship God for eternity... that's my idea of hell. If heaven did exist, I genuinely wouldn't want to go there.As for the morality issue BG, are you a moral person because of God, or despite him? i.e - you only obey laws etc, because of your fear of God? Is that really being genuinely moral, at all? Or is it a selfish repression of your real desires, in order that you get to this place called heaven?If you're moral, without the influence of God, purely through your own rational mind... why would you need God at all? **I've only read the last page of this thread... if this has been addressed earlier, can you direct me to an answer of yours that answers this? Thanks.

That's because you are not understanding the value of Worshipping God. If He was a big one of us then you might have a point, He's not.As far as being moral without God, I am contending that the internal standards of morality could only come from an outside source, and not from random changes to DNA strengthened by natural selection.

[Balloon guy 158]

Why does anyone argue with Balloon guy on religion. He has repeatedly proven he is incapable of critical thought on the subject. Let the man live in his God-parasite fantasies, but don't actually try to talk logically to him. There is absolutely no point.

Buh bye

[Balloon guy 158]

no content. doesn't address anything i said. dodge.again, the real world america vs. islam premise of your question isn't valid, but it's not a terrible question in terms of hypotheticals and you should state it that way. i can do it for you if you want.

Once again proving why you are insane.You would rather berate a small point that you see, then argue the whole point of he thread, because winning is of much greater importance to you than truth.If my original point had a validity with a small tweak, why wouldn't you want to tweak it and continue on with the discussion, instead of becoming bogged down with your silly little word game arguments? I imagine it is because you are basically a narcissist trying desperately to suppress that voice in your head telling you that you are wrong about most everything with regards to God.

[Balloon guy 158]

The bolded is false. The reason idol worship is a "bad" thing, is because worshiping symbols/concepts/ideas instead of that which is actually here leads to a disconnection from that which is actually here, which has a myriad of undesirable consequences. Doing addictive drugs is not bad because god said it was, it's bad because it ruins your life.

First did you have to go back and add the word addictive? You did didn't you you hippy pot smoking acid head!Second, exactly why would my life be 'bad' if I choose to become a heroin shooting person who worships EtchaSketch? Will my death be different than your death? Will there be a grade or a report card? Will I answer for 'wasting' my life according to your standards?If I make the rational decision that humans are overall just bad for this planet and I begin to kill them en mass using biological weapons, am I really wrong? Or am I just not in agreement with what you think is right?

Once you put a mental concept on something, a name, you separate yourself from it. That's why when moses asks god what is name is, he responds "I am that I am". Being itself is to be worshipped, not some name or concept or "god". The Tao Te Ching says it nicely: The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal Name. The unnamable is the eternally real. Naming is the origin of all particular things.

Actually it sounds like Tao is dodging the Ultimate Question? of Who What and Why.

Incorrect, my friend. You have to consider the possibility that you are missing something huge by living in a world of fictional ideas rather than having a true relationship with the natural world that you are in and of. There are consequences to not knowing who you really are.

So you think that the world is filled with people going through life connected with their natural surroundings and holding this relationship dear?I can go to a museum and enjoy the art there, while other can go and think this stuff is boring. What exactly did we do in the grand scheme of things that matters?Will their inability to see the meaning behind a Matisse change the value of their life by any standards that are outside of their life?Will my life become more valuable because I like something that other don't?And if ti does, what exactly does that value get me? Besides a feeling of arrogance I mean?

[crowTrobot 2]

You would rather berate a small point that you see, then argue the whole point of he thread

the fact that the comparison you are trying to make doesn't exist at all in the modern world is not a small point. it's part of the answer. through social evolution human moral consensus - what is most socially beneficial for humans has gradually emerged independent from religious mandates, not because of them. in terms of what is most beneficial there would be nothing "right" about a fundamentalist mandated moral majority dictated by a few authors even if were possible for one to exist, which it isn't. true morality exists independant of religion.

[vbnautilus 48]

Second, exactly why would my life be 'bad' if I choose to become a heroin shooting person who worships EtchaSketch? Will my death be different than your death? Will there be a grade or a report card? Will I answer for 'wasting' my life according to your standards?If I make the rational decision that humans are overall just bad for this planet and I begin to kill them en mass using biological weapons, am I really wrong? Or am I just not in agreement with what you think is right?

I think we can objectively show that life is better as a non-addict compared to as an addict. Almost any measure we choose will show this. It's not just my opinion.

Actually it sounds like Tao is dodging the Ultimate Question? of Who What and Why.

But it's actually getting right to the root of that question and where it comes from. (what a paradox!)

So you think that the world is filled with people going through life connected with their natural surroundings and holding this relationship dear?

No, I think the world is mostly filled with religious fools who are in love with their ideas. But at various points in history in certain places on the globe people have held this relationship dear (e.g. certain native american tribes did). Europeans certainly tend not to, mostly due to christianity, which is why they tend to treat the natural world as an adversary rather than as an ally. <cue Koyaaniqatsi chanting in the background>

I can go to a museum and enjoy the art there, while other can go and think this stuff is boring. What exactly did we do in the grand scheme of things that matters?Will their inability to see the meaning behind a Matisse change the value of their life by any standards that are outside of their life?Will my life become more valuable because I like something that other don't?And if ti does, what exactly does that value get me? Besides a feeling of arrogance I mean?

I'm not referring to aesthetic appreciation, I'm talking about understanding what you are and how you fit into the world. It's the thing religion is supposed to be giving to you but is actually taking away from you. This understanding in fact gives you the opposite of arrogance: Since names and boundaries are products of the mind, the most convincing and distracting one of these is the one you use to distinguish yourself from everything else. When you understand yourself as a natural phenomenon (you are in fact not distinguishable from anything else at a subatomic level) you have the ultimate humility.

[Balloon guy 158]

This understanding in fact gives you the opposite of arrogance: Since names and boundaries are products of the mind, the most convincing and distracting one of these is the one you use to distinguish yourself from everything else. When you understand yourself as a natural phenomenon (you are in fact not distinguishable from anything else at a subatomic level) you have the ultimate humility.

And upon achieving this ultimate humility...you get?To accept that your existence is nothing, and will not matter at all, ever?

[vbnautilus 48]

And upon achieving this ultimate humility...you get?

Everything. And nothing.

To accept that your existence is nothing, and will not matter at all, ever?

If you ever decide to let go of your afterlife fantasy, you might recognize how much this single existence does matter. It's the only one you've got. Even sadder is that you chose to believe in a sub-par afterlife. You could have gotten the one with multiple virgins.

[Balloon guy 158]

Everything. And nothing.

I see the beauty of this, but I think the masses would find it slightly troubling.

If you ever decide to let go of your afterlife fantasy, you might recognize how much this single existence does matter. It's the only one you've got. Even sadder is that you chose to believe in a sub-par afterlife. You could have gotten the one with multiple virgins.

I've said it before;For the non-believer, this is as good as it ever gets.For the believer, this is the worst.BTW, while putting up Christmas lights at a country club today and listening to Dennis Miller on the radio, he had a guy who just wrote a book about life after death and it sounded pretty good. I will research this more after I get through the holidays.

[crowTrobot 2]

I've said it before;For the non-believer, this is as good as it ever gets.For the believer, this is the worst.

so maybe you should go by a reverse pascal's wager - live this life like there isno afterlife, since if there isn't you're wasting the only life you have.

[James D 0]

As far as being moral without God, I am contending that the internal standards of morality could only come from an outside source, and not from random changes to DNA strengthened by natural selection.

So, humans can only be moral as a result of a big guy in the sky telling us to be, otherwise we burn in hell. Gotcha, thanks.Why have I never commited a crime, then? Why do I give money to charity? Why do I phone/visit my parents whenever I can, to check how they are? Why do I help someone if I see them in trouble? I don't believe in God, and I think religion is a disgustingly backward practice. Shouldn't I be out killing people?Or maybe I'm just able to abide by an accepted moral code, through common sense, upbringing and education? Crazy idea, huh?

[Balloon guy 158]

So, humans can only be moral as a result of a big guy in the sky telling us to be, otherwise we burn in hell. Gotcha, thanks.Why have I never commited a crime, then? Why do I give money to charity? Why do I phone/visit my parents whenever I can, to check how they are? Why do I help someone if I see them in trouble? I don't believe in God, and I think religion is a disgustingly backward practice. Shouldn't I be out killing people?Or maybe I'm just able to abide by an accepted moral code, through common sense, upbringing and education? Crazy idea, huh?

Earlier in this thread while addressing an anarchist I stated that a person can believe in anarchy but still live a life of morality as an individual.Just because you have a God given understanding of morality, doesn't mean you must believe in it's source in order to apply it.Your desire to turn the argument into one that if you don't believe in God than you must be a child rapist is a straw man designed to confuse the subject.Of course you can be a very moral person without believing in God, in fact I know many people who I consider much more moral than many Christians I know. The claim I was making with Vb is that if you want to argue that morality evolved because we saw that certain things were good and we kept them, like empathy, then you must have an outside ruler to measure whether or not some new feeling or emotion is good or bad. In a vacuum of morality, you can't borrow morality in order to judge morality. So I am trying to get to the root of the value system that supposedly gave us this evolved morality that we have today.And as far as your current moral standards, you are from a Judeo-Christian country who's roots and laws are based on biblical teachings, so in fact you are just borrowing them from Christianity. But it's cool, we like to share.

[Balloon guy 158]

so maybe you should go by a reverse pascal's wager - live this life like there isno afterlife, since if there isn't you're wasting the only life you have.

I guess we could go with that....if we were idiots.Since the conclusion you reach can also be defined as: because nothing matters so there should be no guilt.See if where I will be going with that direction next.

[James D 0]

Just because you have a God given understanding of morality, doesn't mean you must believe in it's source in order to apply it.

I thought you did. Isn't one of the Ten Commandments, 'Thou shalt believe in no other God but me' (or words to that effect)? If I don't believe in God, I'm breaking his own laws. How and why would God give me a sense of morality, but fail to make it clear to me that he exists? That, in itself, would be an immoral act from God because he's prepared to punish me when I die for not believing something, even though he himself gave me the brain to work out logically that he does not exist.As for living in a Judeo-Christian country, founded on those principles etc... fine, I'm happy to live in a culturally Christian society. Nothing to do with the actual religious aspect of it at all though... I cannot think of one moral judgement that would change, if we rid ourselves of the idea of a God. That's a pretty damning verdict upon humanity isn't it? That we're incapable of judging for ourselves what is morally correct unless we have 'an outside ruler' as you say. Why would we need an outside ruler? We've evolved, we have brains, we can work things out for ourselves. Just like we've worked out how to do everything else better than we used to do.Sometimes, I really think people like you* don't actually believe in God at all, but deep down, you have such a low opinion of humans you're worried that without 'God', everyone would just run amok and they'd be no law and order whatsoever. So, as a result, you keep the religion thing going just to keep order? I hope I'm right.* by that, I mean you seem like a pretty intelligent, succesful guy. The crazy, brainless religious types I can understand, but it utterly confuses me when a sane person believes in God.

[Balloon guy 158]

I thought you did. Isn't one of the Ten Commandments, 'Thou shalt believe in no other God but me' (or words to that effect)? If I don't believe in God, I'm breaking his own laws. How and why would God give me a sense of morality, but fail to make it clear to me that he exists? That, in itself, would be an immoral act from God because he's prepared to punish me when I die for not believing something, even though he himself gave me the brain to work out logically that he does not exist.

I never said you would live a perfect moral life..just a good life in comparison to many if not most.

As for living in a Judeo-Christian country, founded on those principles etc... fine, I'm happy to live in a culturally Christian society. Nothing to do with the actual religious aspect of it at all though... I cannot think of one moral judgement that would change, if we rid ourselves of the idea of a God. That's a pretty damning verdict upon humanity isn't it? That we're incapable of judging for ourselves what is morally correct unless we have 'an outside ruler' as you say. Why would we need an outside ruler? We've evolved, we have brains, we can work things out for ourselves. Just like we've worked out how to do everything else better than we used to do.

Like wars and murder theft and rape...oh wait we still do those things..... a lot

Sometimes, I really think people like you* don't actually believe in God at all, but deep down, you have such a low opinion of humans you're worried that without 'God', everyone would just run amok and they'd be no law and order whatsoever. So, as a result, you keep the religion thing going just to keep order? I hope I'm right.* by that, I mean you seem like a pretty intelligent, succesful guy. The crazy, brainless religious types I can understand, but it utterly confuses me when a sane person believes in God.

Nope, I'm pretty much a fundamentalist Born again Christian who buys the whole ball of wax.And I hope this doesn't hurt but I used to be a non-believing get through life as long as you don't hurt anyone else kind of guy but I found it shallow and meaningless.Maybe I just got to it's logical conclusion faster than most.

[James D 0]

I never said you would live a perfect moral life..just a good life in comparison to many if not most.

Ok, fine. I'm not exactly sure how that leaves me in terms of entering Heaven, but I guess I'll just have to wait to find out. I'd be gutted if I still got in, to be quite honest, that would be a bit weak of him wouldn't it?Could you also answer this part though (below), please? This is one of the main reasons that I am sure no God could possibly exist, so I'd like to hear a reasonable answer, if you would.

How and why would God give me a sense of morality, but fail to make it clear to me that he exists? That, in itself, would be an immoral act from God because he's prepared to punish me when I die for not believing something, even though he himself gave me the brain to work out logically that he does not exist.

[James D 0]

Like wars and murder theft and rape...oh wait we still do those things..... a lot

Didn't Bush and Blair go to war, backed by God? I know they both prayed to him a lot, Blair even waffled on about it in his book. I can only assume then, God is pro-war. Or maybe he's not, and those two just got his message horribly wrong, who knows?

[crowTrobot 2]

Maybe I just got to it's logical conclusion faster than most.

most people aren't brainwashed by AA

[crowTrobot 2]

I guess we could go with that....if we were idiots.Since the conclusion you reach can also be defined as: because nothing matters so there should be no guilt.

it's funny only religious people think that. atheists don't.

[Royal_Tour 0]

BTW, while putting up Christmas lights at a country club today and listening to Dennis Miller on the radio, he had a guy who just wrote a book about life after death and it sounded pretty good. I will research this more after I get through the holidays.

You know.. hate to burst your balloon, but near death experiences, and out of body experiences are easily linked to scientific data that proves the brain functions and stays alive for several minutes after the heart stops beating.The white light experience is lack of oxygen, and the visions are dream sequence. as dreams are merely seconds, but can feel like an entire day has passed.

[vbnautilus 48]

You know.. hate to burst your balloon, but near death experiences, and out of body experiences are easily linked to scientific data that proves the brain functions and stays alive for several minutes after the heart stops beating.The white light experience is lack of oxygen, and the visions are dream sequence. as dreams are merely seconds, but can feel like an entire day has passed.

Well, something like this is probably true, but you're overstating the case quite a bit. This is still mostly conjecture. ( aside:We did some experiments earlier this year trying to create out of body experiences to image the brain while they are happening. Couldn't quite get the setup to work inside the scanner, but the basic idea is you look through stereoscopic glasses (to make it 3d) which connect to video cameras that are pointed at you from above. So the experience is that you are looking down at your body. You then reinforce the illusion with some synchronized touch tricks and the sensation is pretty strong that you are looking down at a body that you are not inside of any more. )

[Balloon guy 158]

Ok, fine. I'm not exactly sure how that leaves me in terms of entering Heaven, but I guess I'll just have to wait to find out. I'd be gutted if I still got in, to be quite honest, that would be a bit weak of him wouldn't it?

Well if you are wondering I'll explain.No works you can do will earn your way into heaven. Not one person will enter heaven because of their works.However, Christ dying on the cross and paying for all your sins does gain you full access into heaven.The cost for this is asking for it. That is the entire Gospel message of how to get into heaven.

Could you also answer this part though (below), please? This is one of the main reasons that I am sure no God could possibly exist, so I'd like to hear a reasonable answer, if you would.

How and why would God give me a sense of morality, but fail to make it clear to me that he exists? That, in itself, would be an immoral act from God because he's prepared to punish me when I die for not believing something, even though he himself gave me the brain to work out logically that he does not exist.

First we can list a hundred examples of people using their brains to logically say anything they want. Some people actually think Cricket is enjoyable to watch.Second, there are many explanations of why God doesn't just reveal Himself and say "Believe or Die" The most common is that to do so would in effect remove your free will to decide on your own whether or not you want to believe and worship God. Let's face it, if God appeared to you in a dream, told you you were going to win the lottery, and the next day you won, you wold have a hard time arguing that there is no God. But some people would still argue that it was just random chemical reactions to the food you ate etc.We have an internal understanding of morality because that's how we were made, and this along with many other things points to a Creator in our lives, leacing us without excuse on the final day to say "We didn't know you were real"