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Daniel - A question for you


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Hi Daniel, not sure if you read this forum regularly, but I have a question you are more capable of answering well than most. Here it is : Is there ever a time to fold two kings in a NLHE tourney? In Dan Harrington's new book he says there is not. On a side note what is your opinion of Harrington's game and also, what is the status of your book? Is it true that it is going to be about 2-7 trip draw exclusively?Thanks for the time, Red

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  • 4 weeks later...

Red for another experts opinion on whether or not to fold to fold Kings in a NLH Tourney check out pgs.53-54 of Championship No-Limit & Pot Limit Hold'em by T.J. Cloutier and Tom McEvoy. Says T.J. "Where I was schooled in Dallas, the second raise probably would have been aces, and the third raise was like Ivory snow : 99.9 percent pure aces. It's not A-K in this situation---it's aces." Personally, I would only fold KK preflop at a big buy in event like WSOP etc, at what had been a previously low key table.By the way the hand that resulted in Rounders star Mat Damon getting busted out of the 1998 WSOP happened when there was a raise, re-raise, and then a third raise by Doyle Brunson. Damon put in all his chips acting after Doyles 3rd raise holding KK, Doyle turned over AA and that was it.

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Actually my book will cover one game and one game only: Kings and little uns' :D:) My first book will cover no limit hold'em. As for Harrington's book I imagine it is very good. On the KK pre-flop, I'm sure he was saying that it's extremely rare where folding KK pre-flop would be correct. Put it to you another way I've never had to do it and I'm doin' just fine :wink:

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Put it to you another way I've never had to do it and I'm doin' just fine :wink:
:D I love this part of the post! I may just have to used that as a sig line.Seriously think of the % of times you will run into AA when holding KK. It's not very likely, I am sure somebody on here could post the % of times if could happen but it would have to be less than 1% I would think. I could be wrong, but still even if it were higher you just have to do this.If you are going to go out fighting with KK, I would like that 99% advantage each time.
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I played in a uni game not long ago when someone went all in, a then another reraised all in followed by a third all in, Hands turned over player 1, A2 offsuitplayer 2, KKplayer 3, AA Who won?A2 offsuit with a 2 on the flop and another 2 on the river :shock: Moral? KK v AA does happen and they're both useless! :D

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Kings and Aces in a 10 handed game occurs about once in 20 times. It is like Hoyt Corkin said. I don't care what he's got. I got Kings. One of my friends ran into this situation 4 times in a 48 hour period in tournament play (multitable or satellites during the 5 diamond tournament). That has got to be some kind of record in live tournament play. I also had this situation in the 3k 5 diamonds tournament. Of course I lost. I had kings! Scott

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Put it to you another way I've never had to do it and I'm doin' just fine :wink:
:D I love this part of the post! I may just have to used that as a sig line.Seriously think of the % of times you will run into AA when holding KK. It's not very likely, I am sure somebody on here could post the % of times if could happen but it would have to be less than 1% I would think. I could be wrong, but still even if it were higher you just have to do this.If you are going to go out fighting with KK, I would like that 99% advantage each time.
KK has been costing my brother a lot of money recently. It's been running to AA an improbable number of times in the last coupla weeks, he says. Out of curiousity, I sat down and did the math. If my math is correct, if you are dealt KK in a 9-handed game, the odds of another player holding AA is almost 30 to 1, better than 3%. Very small, but larger than I thought it'd be.
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Put it to you another way I've never had to do it and I'm doin' just fine :wink:
:D I love this part of the post! I may just have to used that as a sig line.Seriously think of the % of times you will run into AA when holding KK. It's not very likely, I am sure somebody on here could post the % of times if could happen but it would have to be less than 1% I would think. I could be wrong, but still even if it were higher you just have to do this.If you are going to go out fighting with KK, I would like that 99% advantage each time.
KK has been costing my brother a lot of money recently. It's been running to AA an improbable number of times in the last coupla weeks, he says. Out of curiousity, I sat down and did the math. If my math is correct, if you are dealt KK in a 9-handed game, the odds of another player holding AA is almost 30 to 1, better than 3%. Very small, but larger than I thought it'd be.
So then my point on this, you keep a record of the next 30 times you have KK and somebody goes allin in front of you. So say one time you are beat by AA, but 29 times they isn't an AA. I can live with those odds.29 out of 30 times I am a huge favorite to win. Now I know I won't win all 29, so what is the % of times that KK wins heads up vs all other hands other than AA.Sure there will be runs, I have had AA cracked 4 times in a row. I have been dealt AA 3 out of 4 hands. Of course on the flip side I have had what seemed like 2000 hands and not get an AA.
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I'm not saying you should fold kk preflop, but you guys are ignoring the fact that people aren't nearly as likely to go allin with anything but aces. If you get kings 30 times, and 1 time someone has aces, there will likely not be an allin all 29 other times...

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Hi all - (my first post at FCP- but been lurking for a while....)I'll take my all in with KK even with that "huge threat" of AA. Worst case - running into AA I'm still only a 4-1 dog going in. So discount that 3% by 1/5 and I'm down to only a 2.4% chancce of being up against aces and losing to them. (Granted my Kings don't always hold up - but if I gotta pick a starting hand.....)I'll take my chances every time. Kinda reminds me of all the people who bitch that they "won't even play aces" because they get cracked too often... and "...I prefer 65s." You guys can keep your 65s LOL... I'll keep my KK anyday.Can't fold a monster for fear of the nuts - you better be sure you're up against em..... and I don't think I've ever been 97% sure about a read in my whole life. Even Doyle's 99.9% might not convince me to lay down my KK. Maybe Phil Ivey can do it playing every day in the big game - but I guess that's why he's Phil Ivey and I'm not. Besides if Daniel has never done it yet - that's good enough for me.....OPUSLIVE

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I HAVE laid down KK, and I was right THAT time. Why did I do it? because it was at a small tourney playing against a bunch of ROCKS. There was a raise from early position, I reraised from the cutoff. Small blind (who hadn't played a hand in almost an hour, and had never turned over anything but Premium cards) pushes all in. The first raiser called. At this point, I had to figure them both for big pairs. I had an average stack, and was two players away from the final table, 8 away from the money (top four pay out). I figured the small blind for aces , and the other guy for A-K or QQ. In either case, I'm about 4-1 to win, (actually 9-1 if the caller has A-K) and although I've got both guys covered, it's close. So I fold. Sure enough, the original raiser flips over QQ, and the reraiser flips AA. Aces hold up. Was that a smart play? I like to think it was, although i'd have felt really stupid if I was wrong.

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Guest XXEddie
I played in a uni game not long ago when someone went all in, a then another reraised all in followed by a third all in, Hands turned over player 1, A2 offsuitplayer 2, KKplayer 3, AA Who won?A2 offsuit with a 2 on the flop and another 2 on the river :shock: Moral? KK v AA does happen and they're both useless! :D
I need a better moral than that
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