One Of Those "great" Kk Situations...

[CaseAce 0]

Hey guys. Been a member of FCP since the beginning and have been reading all you guys for a while. Never posted though because I was always nervous the advice I'd be giving was poor and would accidently steer somebody in the wrong direction. Also, I never played online, so I felt as if my advice would be missing a key element. However, I just just starting playing online a few months ago, and could use some help in few situations. Hopefully with a little more experience(and winning) I'll feel comfortable commenting on other peoples hands with my thought process. Until then though, anything you guys can offer would be greatly appreciated.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comCO ($19.50)Hero (Button) ($99.80)Villain2 (SB) ($77.75)BB ($57.40)Villain1 (UTG) ($101.50)MP1 ($47.15)MP2 ($39)Preflop: Hero is Button with K, KVillain1 bets $2, 3 folds, Hero raises to $6.50, Villain2 calls $6.50, 1 fold, Villain1 raises to $19, Hero?I don't have any tracker software, but I had identified Villain 1 as a very solid TAG. Villain 2 is a little more difficult to comment on. He seems to be fairly competent, but on my 3rd hand at the table I put a bad beat on him for his whole stack. Since then, he's played pretty straightforward except when I'm involved in a pot. I'm definitely in his head. Every time I'm in the pot and the action comes to him, he takes double the amount of time he normally does making a decision to play or not, and seems to get involved in more pots than normal with the intention of trying out play me post flop. That being said, I'm not overly concerned about him, even though its a decent size raise to call OOP. In the big hand he lost to me he had kings, made a big re-raise pre, and we got it in. He was ahead then, so I would expect him to take that route again. I'm more worried about Villain1, as I haven't seen him get out of line yet. That being said, what line do you guys take with this? Auto shove? With QQ you basically have two options, shove, or call and fold to overs. With KK, do you lose too much value by calling because you're only getting calls post flop from AK when you're beat? Does the fact we're 200 BB's deep change anything? That's the main issue I'm having with this. With 30 left, theres no question what I'm doing, but what about 95? I thought about 5 betting to 60, but am I really folding here to a shove from either player? Maybe if villain 2 comes out of nowhere and shoves? Is there any scenario that would lead you guys to folding this hand, or is this just one of those deals where you get it in regardless and live with the results?

[RsHwK 0]

Hey guys. Been a member of FCP since the beginning and have been reading all you guys for a while. Never posted though because I was always nervous the advice I'd be giving was poor and would accidently steer somebody in the wrong direction. Also, I never played online, so I felt as if my advice would be missing a key element. However, I just just starting playing online a few months ago, and could use some help in few situations. Hopefully with a little more experience(and winning) I'll feel comfortable commenting on other peoples hands with my thought process. Until then though, anything you guys can offer would be greatly appreciated.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comCO ($19.50)Hero (Button) ($99.80)Villain2 (SB) ($77.75)BB ($57.40)Villain1 (UTG) ($101.50)MP1 ($47.15)MP2 ($39)Preflop: Hero is Button with K, KVillain1 bets $2, 3 folds, Hero raises to $6.50, Villain2 calls $6.50, 1 fold, Villain1 raises to $19, Hero?Total pot: $20.50I don't have any tracker software, but I had identified Villain 1 as a very solid TAG. Villain 2 is a little more difficult to comment on. He seems to be fairly competent, but on my 3rd hand at the table I put a bad beat on him for his whole stack. Since then, he's played pretty straightforward except when I'm involved in a pot. I'm definitely in his head. Every time I'm in the pot and the action comes to him, he takes double the amount of time he normally does making a decision to play or not, and seems to get involved in more pots than normal with the intention of trying out play me post flop. That being said, I'm not overly concerned about him, even though its a decent size raise to call OOP. In the big hand he lost to me he had kings, made a big re-raise pre, and we got it in. He was ahead then, so I would expect him to take that route again. I'm more worried about Villain1, as I haven't seen him get out of line yet. That being said, what line do you guys take with this? Auto shove? With QQ you basically have two options, shove, or call and fold to overs. With KK, do you lose too much value by calling because you're only getting calls post flop from AK when you're beat? Does the fact we're 200 BB's deep change anything? That's the main issue I'm having with this. With 30 left, theres no question what I'm doing, but what about 95? I thought about 5 betting to 60, but am I really folding here to a shove from either player? Maybe if villain 2 comes out of nowhere and shoves? Is there any scenario that would lead you guys to folding this hand, or is this just one of those deals where you get it in regardless and live with the results?

You never fold Kings in a cash game preflop. You just don't do it. I shove here and see if we can get a call from AK or a smaller pocket pair. Just calling risks seeing the flop three-handed since Villian2 only needs $13 more to call as well. Reraising to $60 seems to give our hand away too much and I think makes it possible for hands like AK, JJ, 10's to fold. Going for the homerun shove preflop will sometimes induce a call from hands like AK, AQ etc who will often times put you on a mid pocket pair.Just my thinking, but I'm open to arguments and better lines we can take

[Stragoi73 0]

If it were 1 player, I'd call and see the flop. With 2 players, you've got to try to run one of them off. I'd push here and try to run the caller off. KK plays so poorly against two or more players that I hate seeing a flop with them unless I'm heads up. One of them has an ace, you can count on it. If an ace flops, what are you going to do OOP against two players? Try to bet Villain 2 off the hand and go from there.Still, you're not going anywhere with KK... ever, so if they push you all in, or you push yourself, it doesn't really matter. Not folding KK is never a bad play.

[LJB723 0]

Stack sizes being deep, along with villain2's cold-call make this more awkward. 100BB and this is fistpumpsnapshove. I think krup pointed out in another thread that 50nl is one of the toughest levels to play. I wouldn't know though.I'd think a decent TAG player is playing QQ similarly to our villain1 but its pretty much the only hand we beat. I suppose it comes down to would villain take this line with QQ and pay off a shove? JJ and worse are folding. You could flat and get it all-in on any non-A flop but if you're thinking that you may as well shove now.Also, welcome (sort of) to the forum. Don't worry about being a live player and not being able to give good advice to the internet aggrotards on here. Plenty of predominately live players post great advice, the scenarios are surprisngly interchangable.

[krup24 0]

You never fold Kings in a cash game preflop. You just don't do it. I shove here and see if we can get a call from AK or a smaller pocket pair. Just calling risks seeing the flop three-handed since Villian2 only needs $13 more to call as well. Reraising to $60 seems to give our hand away too much and I think makes it possible for hands like AK, JJ, 10's to fold. Going for the homerun shove preflop will sometimes induce a call from hands like AK, AQ etc who will often times put you on a mid pocket pair.Just my thinking, but I'm open to arguments and better lines we can take

if villian is a very solid TAG he's folding AK, JJ, TT to a 4-bet shove with 200 BB stacks, typically.villians hand imo is most likely QQ+ sometimes AKs.with that said i think i still shove.

[krup24 0]

Stack sizes being deep, along with villain2's cold-call make this more awkward. 100BB and this is fistpumpsnapshove. I think krup pointed out in another thread that 50nl is one of the toughest levels to play. I wouldn't know though.

well for me it is. i have had no problems at 25 or 100NL but it seems like 50 has a ton of solid regs. it plays different that any level i've played which ranges from 10-200NL.

[SpatsJ 0]

Also, welcome (sort of) to the forum. Don't worry about being a live player and not being able to give good advice to the internet aggrotards on here. Plenty of predominately live players post great advice, the scenarios are surprisngly interchangable.

finally! i feel like live players don't get the respect they deserve in forums as if live play is ancient history. i still think they're completely different animals but there are both good and bad players in both. no hijack intended. as for the hand, i'd shove with a smile.

[TrueFX 0]

In your spot, I would just call.I am a little more passive than a lot of people, but I like to play the flop / turn and make my decisions based on how things play out. One of the players has an Ace, if not both. More often than not, I see the big raiser having AK online. I like having the opportunity to fold if an Ace hits the flop.Ten high flop, I will re-raise any bet, or bet the pot if it is checked to me. Ace on the flop, I fold. J or Q I will be put to a decision on whether or not the big raiser hit his set.In short, I am going to call the pre-flop action at this point. I won't re-raise anyone I do not play regularly with, and will never fold.

[CaseAce 0]

In your spot, I would just call.More often than not, I see the big raiser having AK online. I like having the opportunity to fold if an Ace hits the flop.Ten high flop, I will re-raise any bet, or bet the pot if it is checked to me. Ace on the flop, I fold. J or Q I will be put to a decision on whether or not the big raiser hit his set.

If that is the case, aren't you losing a ton of value here and not really gaining anything? If the AK whiffs(which it will most times when you hold two of the 6 outs) then cool, you won a 25 buck pot because you're probably not getting a cent more. Therefore you have to take in account the value(80 bucks) you lost by not getting him in pre, right? Also, its not as if you are saving money in this situation if he has AA, which is one of the 4 hands I narrowed his range to once he 4 bet. In that case, if an ace doesn't hit, you are still going broke. Does the money saved in the rare case the ace does hit outweigh the money lost by not getting inferior hands all in pre? Like Krup said though, this guy was a very solid TAG, had a narrow range when he 4 bet, which would become even narrower if he called my shove. What am I being called by that I beat on a shove? ak or qq HOPEFULLY? More likely AA or KK which stack me, and chop me respectively. Not to mention, there is the issue with the smooth caller who could be slow playing me with a monster as well. Does his involvement make it any less likely that I'm beaten?I still don't see how I get away from shoving here, but I hate it just the same. Anybody else just calling?

[gooch 0]

i have a couple thought on this, if you think that you could be against AK and AQ types of hands, I think a push is the way to go as they are really down to two outs thenAK push gets to see all five cards and I think that is really where the value is against KK, hell, AQ AJ and AT pretty much are just as good as AK against KK, so a call and a push on any non Ace flop is one way I think it can be played too

[mtdesmoines 3]

Stack sizes being deep, along with villain2's cold-call make this more awkward. 100BB and this is fistpumpsnapshove. I think krup pointed out in another thread that 50nl is one of the toughest levels to play. I wouldn't know though.I'd think a decent TAG player is playing QQ similarly to our villain1 but its pretty much the only hand we beat. I suppose it comes down to would villain take this line with QQ and pay off a shove? JJ and worse are folding. You could flat and get it all-in on any non-A flop but if you're thinking that you may as well shove now.Also, welcome (sort of) to the forum. Don't worry about being a live player and not being able to give good advice to the internet aggrotards on here. Plenty of predominately live players post great advice, the scenarios are surprisngly interchangable.

The problem is the level. I SWEAR i've never seen a worse game than online $50/$100NL. It just is the worst game in poker. That being said, you and the other competent villain might be interpreted by each other as trying to isolate the fish. That plays in our favor because it opens his range a little bit. Reraise to $50 and snap call a shove/shove any non-A flop and take your medicine.

[gooch 0]

The problem is the level. I SWEAR i've never seen a worse game than online $50/$100NL. It just is the worst game in poker.

do you think that is because there is a mix of bother good and bad players there and it's hard to figure out which are which?

[sjm20 0]

pros of flatting:-we widen our range when the flop comes without an ace or a king-other player may squeeze and run head first into uscons of flatting:-we are planning our hand based on flop texture and neglecting the third player. can we really fold when the flop comes nine high? granted we discussed running into Aces, but what about the other pocket pairs the third player has that get a cheap look at the flop and can easily checkraise us on the flop?-there's ~66 BBs in the pot already, what equity are we losing by just shoving here and getting folds out of other hands that we beat?lastly (maybe most importantly)If we get a fold out of this guy who 4 bet our button raise, and we get through the hand w/o showing down, what does that do for us long term when we three bet the button? I think it will narrow the hand ranges that will 4-bet bluff you knowing that you're willing to 5 bet. Even if it's only a little bit, not getting 4 bet when 3-betting the button is probably +EV

[sjm20 0]

As an aside, if villain1 exclusively has AA, do we like his line? This looks like an attempt to iso the button, do we really want to do that with someone stuck in the middle?Can anyone make a case for flatting AA in villain1 spot in hopes of checkraising the button on the flop?

[mtdesmoines 3]

do you think that is because there is a mix of bother good and bad players there and it's hard to figure out which are which?

My theory is that it's CROWDED with multi-tabling, data-mining, poker-tracking nut-peddlers who have moved up from lower limits and have a $x,xxx bankroll and they don't want to piss it away giving action by playing anything less than the nuts. Which is what worked for them in the lower limits: wait for a strong hand, see if you get paid. It's very difficult to get action from them. You should know that this isn't a criticism of their play -- there is a heavy population of really, really tough to crack $50 / $100 NL players out there. The growth of their bankroll has slowed down enormously, but they're making .5BB/100 on 10 tables and trying to figure out the game and that's fine with them. But that's why the game sucks. And the competition for fish at that level is intense.

[CaseAce 0]

My theory is that it's CROWDED with multi-tabling, data-mining, poker-tracking nut-peddlers who have moved up from lower limits and have a $x,xxx bankroll and they don't want to piss it away giving action by playing anything less than the nuts.

I've noticed this too, and that was one of the reasons I was so apprehensive about getting it in here so early. It seems the only time I've seen competent players getting this many big blinds in the middle is when they have the stone cold nuts. I've noticed two types of players at the 50NL tables: Type A: The multi tabling, data mining, only playing the nuts crowd you mentioned earlier. They are either up two buy ins, or are sitting at the max starting amount because they reload after every hand that they lose a BB. Type B: Buy in for 10, fold anything less than a pocket pair or AK. Limp. Smooth call ANY 3 bet. Fold any flop you don't absolutely stomp, and shove immediately when you make a big hand. 4 times out of 5 they are folding to a continuation bet. If they show any resistance at all, they turned their 33 into a set. It's like clockwork.The common denominater between the two is the minraise. I've never been minraised more times in my life. Well, actually, the minraise for a Type A isn't really a minraise per say. Player B will make the definition minraise from 4 to 8. Type B will raise from 4 to 9... You get minraised at 50NL, run for the hills unless you've got the goods. Like you said, its easy to identify the players at this level, its just difficult to make money. Not a lot of fish.

[CaseAce 0]

As an aside, if villain1 exclusively has AA, do we like his line? This looks like an attempt to iso the button, do we really want to do that with someone stuck in the middle?Can anyone make a case for flatting AA in villain1 spot in hopes of checkraising the button on the flop?

Results: I thought for a few moments after the 4 bet. It felt like aces, but there was no way I was folding kings, and like we talked about, no likely flop was going to change the fact I was getting it in at some point, so I shoved hoping to keep AK involved. Villain 2 thought about it for a few seconds before kicking it in. Villain 1 then took about 5-10 seconds, and called. I felt really good at that point, because AA would have snapped. Flop came down with an ace, and suddenly I didn't feel so good. Turn and River were blanks. Villain 1 showed up with AA for trips.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Results: I thought for a few moments after the 4 bet. It felt like aces, but there was no way I was folding kings, and like we talked about, no likely flop was going to change the fact I was getting it in at some point, so I shoved hoping to keep AK involved. Villain 2 thought about it for a few seconds before kicking it in. Villain 1 then took about 5-10 seconds, and called. I felt really good at that point, because AA would have snapped. Flop came down with an ace, and suddenly I didn't feel so good. Turn and River were blanks. Villain 1 showed up with AA for trips.

He was multi-tabling and had to get back to you. I still think the shove is OK, because it looks like you are isolating the fish or flat out stealing, so the calling range broadens quite a bit from a thinking player. Flatting PF is the ONLY way you DON'T go broke here, because you see the A and can fold. I would just forget about this hand if I were you.

[gooch 0]

I've noticed this too, and that was one of the reasons I was so apprehensive about getting it in here so early. It seems the only time I've seen competent players getting this many big blinds in the middle is when they have the stone cold nuts. I've noticed two types of players at the 50NL tables: Type A: The multi tabling, data mining, only playing the nuts crowd you mentioned earlier. They are either up two buy ins, or are sitting at the max starting amount because they reload after every hand that they lose a BB. Type B: Buy in for 10, fold anything less than a pocket pair or AK. Limp. Smooth call ANY 3 bet. Fold any flop you don't absolutely stomp, and shove immediately when you make a big hand. 4 times out of 5 they are folding to a continuation bet. If they show any resistance at all, they turned their 33 into a set. It's like clockwork.The common denominater between the two is the minraise. I've never been minraised more times in my life. Well, actually, the minraise for a Type A isn't really a minraise per say. Player B will make the definition minraise from 4 to 8. Type B will raise from 4 to 9... You get minraised at 50NL, run for the hills unless you've got the goods. Like you said, its easy to identify the players at this level, its just difficult to make money. Not a lot of fish.

My theory is that it's CROWDED with multi-tabling, data-mining, poker-tracking nut-peddlers who have moved up from lower limits and have a $x,xxx bankroll and they don't want to piss it away giving action by playing anything less than the nuts. Which is what worked for them in the lower limits: wait for a strong hand, see if you get paid. It's very difficult to get action from them. You should know that this isn't a criticism of their play -- there is a heavy population of really, really tough to crack $50 / $100 NL players out there. The growth of their bankroll has slowed down enormously, but they're making .5BB/100 on 10 tables and trying to figure out the game and that's fine with them. But that's why the game sucks. And the competition for fish at that level is intense.

thanks for both of those, very good analysis, i haven't played much online for a while but i wish i had known that a few years back when i did, i was crushing the $25 nl game, but everytime i got up to the $50 it seemed i got run over by sets and nut flushes all the time, now i know whyso how would you beat this game?limp constantly to avoid rasing with say AK and hitting TPTK and being way behind a set of 3's?

[gooch 0]

He was multi-tabling and had to get back to you.

very nice, well done and something to consider with future play, someone may not actually be thinking, they may just be multitabling

I still think the shove is OK, because it looks like you are isolating the fish or flat out stealing, so the calling range broadens quite a bit from a thinking player. Flatting PF is the ONLY way you DON'T go broke here, because you see the A and can fold.

i am going to try and not push kings for a while pf, call and push the non ace board instead and see how that works out long term, your still dead to AA, but at least you may beat AK more often

[CaseAce 0]

thanks for both of those, very good analysis, i haven't played much online for a while but i wish i had known that a few years back when i did, i was crushing the $25 nl game, but everytime i got up to the $50 it seemed i got run over by sets and nut flushes all the time, now i know whyso how would you beat this game?limp constantly to avoid rasing with say AK and hitting TPTK and being way behind a set of 3's?

I'm probably not the right person to ask, because I'm only up 2 buy ins after about 70 hours of play, but I'm starting to adjust. Every game is beatable, it just seems like this one may take a while, because you have to exercise so much patience. It seems as if the only hands I'm ever involved with that have big pots are coolers either in my favor or against. It's very rare I see somebody get nailed on a semi bluff. Well, besides myself of course haha... It's usually big hand vs bigger hand.My guess would be the people who have made a large profit in the game multi table, sit back and wait for monsters. Their bankroll won't grow as quickly, but the money will eventually accrue over time when people inevitably pay them off. There is a guy on another thread who mentioned that he kills 50NL for a 750 dollar a month profit, and I would be very interested to see what strategy he employs.

[mtdesmoines 3]

very nice, well done and something to consider with future play, someone may not actually be thinking, they may just be multitablingi am going to try and not push kings for a while pf, call and push the non ace board instead and see how that works out long term, your still dead to AA, but at least you may beat AK more often

I have to stop you right there. Please play your KK hands hard into preflop aggression. Because people might be 3 betting AK KK QQ JJ TT AQs and garbage. Collect that value WHILE they are making their mistake. Almost ALLLLLLLLL the value you're ever going to get out of AK while holding KK is going to be from PREFLOP action. Think about it. If you start flatting 3 bets with KK, I will crush you pretty quickly. KK is the #2 starting hand in poker. True, it's not #1, but it's good enough to pound into the ground PF every time. (unless you're 600 BBs deep, which is the only time I folded KK preflop -- and I was right).Warning. Going to ramble now. ....... I don't have time to proofread, so you'll probably have to ask for clarification.Can I say that I don't think poker is about "winning" a hand? Because that implies we are just waiting for good hands and seeing if we get paid, and anyone who's playing poker for money just isn't going to fork over money to you because you have a better hand. Because sometimes, they'll surprise you when they turn over a better hand. Or maybe your action dries up completely any time you put more than one chip in a pot. And sometimes they will get their money in behind and suck out. What I'm saying is that if we just bet mechanically against one another and turn the cards over and see who wins and loses, I think it will all pretty much even out in the end and the rake wins. Or maybe you make .025BB/1,000. Poker is about putting the person behind the other avatar (or across the table if you play live) in position to consistently make the wrong decision (and make it in a colossal amount) about what he does with his chips. Because if we all play perfectly, we chop for infinity and the house wins all the money through the rake (because, frankly, it's only about once out of XX (pick your number) sessions that we'll see someone just hand over their chips, and it won't always be to us, And that's not enough. Not for me. I know guys who sit in a poker room 8 hours a night, waiting for someone to fall into their trap. They buy in 200, cash out 180. 200/190. 200/210. 200/180. 200/325. 200/150. And now they have 48 hours logged and $35 profit. And if they just like sitting in poker rooms, that's OK. But if we want to make money at the game, we're going to have to know how to beat competent players. Or at least to beat the levels we play. So we need to figure out what mistakes they make. So we're talking about levels of the game online. I've play NL at 10 25 50 100 200 and 400 online. I'm by far not the best player posting here, so better players than me who've read this far may want to chime in and correct me, but here is how I characterize the action. 10 - you just wait and get value from a "big hand" -- and the definition of that slides along a scale however the villains define their holdings as good or not good. Sometimes TPGK is enough to stack someone. Few people have found the fold button here. Don't bluff. They just don't get it yet because they see a pair or even ace high and they aren't really thinking about your hand at all. 25 - you're still waiting for big hands to harvest for value, but 3 betting some regs in position is starting to get them to fold. You start learning about position and aggression here. People will bet $2 into a $10 pot with $15 behind and will be astonished that you played a draw, because drawing is stupid. That kind of thing.50 - this to me is the worst level for me to play and it is probably because of my own style. these guys are very good at punishing you for playing too many hands, not STRICTLY obeying position rules, etc. this is a grinding, grinding, tough level. But it's beatable because fish do appear here and some people just lose their mind with the lack of action and go aggrotard. This is when the level wakes up and you actually play. Watch the lists on these games; you'll see something like this:Table A 10 players average pot: $.75Table B 10 players average pot: $.75Table C 10 players average pot: $20.75Table D 10 players average pot: $.75Table E 10 players average pot: $.75Table F 10 players average pot: $25.75Table G 10 players average pot: $.75See .... you want to find the right spot.100 - I will say that I think the action improves at $100 over $50, but I don't think the play is markedly different from $50 NL. But the small additional bump in action and the bigger money in play maybe makes it seem like you're progressing faster because dollars add up in your bankroll more quickly.200 - I don't know why, but the action at this level starts to pick up quite a bit. When I play 200 NL, I am playing .5/1 and 200 BBs deep. I like deeper games because I have more room for postflop play. 400 - the action here is amazing and the PF aggression is incredible. If you dropped out of the sky from a $50NL game into a $400 NL game, you would be very confused within four shuffles. You just would. But at least you'd have a good chance of getting action on your PF shoves of AA and KK. And you'd probably start including QQ and AK in your PF shoving range pretty quickly. I don't have the online BR to play this game. But the hands I've seen here convince me that this is an amazing level to play. I'm not really the fanboi type, I'm pretty self-centered, so I've never played or even sweated hands at a higher level online, so I don't know anything about higher levels. I've made a decent amount of money playing FR low mid stakes online, and gave a chunk back HU in mid-stakes. My style is probably not well-suited to HU, but if I get a read on a player, then it goes much better for me. I've played a ton of live 1/2 2/5 5/10 and I make very good money doing that, so I prefer live. I don't know if I just read human beings better live or what, but in live poker, I just see so much more clearly what's happening. Also, I've never used Poker Tracker. I think if I did, it would completely open up the online game for me. I just don't like using a PC and online to me is about seeing hands and learning. I'm also MUCH more likely to play online when I'm tired, tilted, etc. etc. etc.Anyway, there is a roadmap to beating games, but it changes with the game. It changes with the players. It changes with the table dynamics, the data, the action ... everything. But that's what good players do. They see, interpret, understand, adjust and exploit. Maybe I wasn't helpful at all.