Live Local Tourney ?

[dt1313 0]

I'm going to first start with a little background. This is a local tournament at a "VFW" type place. Most players are locals and I'm familiar with a fair amount of them (having either played together numerous times or grown up with them) The typical player in this tourney is OBLIVIOUS to anything beyond remedial poker strategy. You have your drinkers who think you really gotta bluff to win at this game and will chase anything/never fold anything that has hit. You have your "I saw it on ESPN" player. The guy who thinks this is an ALL IN game. etc etc. There's a small group of regulars who have a decent idea how to play and maybe 3 or 4 I would say can actually play (put people on ranges / worry about what the other player might think then have etc. etc.) Also this is your typical sh*tty structure so short stacked poker is the norm.Sorry for the long explanation but I figured it can't hurt.Quick explanation of the villain. He was just moved to my table and we've never played together. I do know him outside of poker and saw him play a couple of pots. Initial impression + knowing who he is lead me to think he might know a little more than the basics of tourney poker and he's probably more TAG than anything else.We're playing 6 handed, Blinds 100-200:SB - 5000-5300 (hard to tell)BB - 3090 (Hero) A 7 :spade:4 folds, SB completes, Hero raises to 600, SB calls. - My thinking here is that he only completed and A7 sooooted should be ahead of most his range.Flop (Pot 1200)6 8 10 :club:SB checks, Hero bets 600 (would you have bet more ?) SB thinks for a few and calls. Thoughts ? Bet size ?Turn (Pot 2400)9 SB checks, Hero takes about 30-45 second counting out his stack and "thinking" then pushes all in for 1890. SB seems baffled and asks "What are you doing to me here" takes another minute at least maybe two, mentions this might be the worst call ever and calls. He's check called every bet including an All In. I had no idea what he might have. Two Pair ? Flopped a set ?River (Final Pot 6180)6 Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. I thought this was a pretty straightforward hand but then again that doesn't mean others will agree. I tried taking down the blinds preflop. Continuation bet the flop hoping to take the pot right there. I hit gin on the turn and got it all in.Thanks for your time and any input...Dan

[Stuples 0]

Meh, standard.So he rivered either a flush or a full house?

[JCarver 0]

You can shove preflop profitably with any ace and even weaker (you can shove deeper, it's profiitable here up to do so up to about 25-30bbs). I'd probably do that most of the time, but if I didn't and raised to 600 preflop, I don't mind how you played the rest of the hand. Your hand writeup was really good as well, gave an appropriate level of detail, included all important info, etc.

[outsider13 0]

Yeah, pretty standard...I agree. I may have just shoved the flop, but your line works too.

[BeaverStyle 1]

I agree, good write-up. I think you played it just fine. I might not c/b the flop because a lot of middle cards are in his range of complete/calling your raise preflop... but it's more of a stylistic decision. Easy push on turn. River filled up a lot of draws, hopefully he didn't fill up w/ 68ss or something.

[Chet Chetterson 0]

If you wanted to just win the pot on the flop you probably should have bet around 900 or just go all in. I agree that you played it well otherwise.

[XXEddie 0]

I generally wouldn't raise outta the BB here with A7ss, but thats just me. I like the flop bet size, a lot. I don't like the people saying you should shove the flop. Thats 2400 into a 1200 pot, with a gutshot and an overcard. Turn I think I check behind and let him think I have air and have given up, especially with the 1/2 pot bet on the flop. The river I call anything, and make a 1000 bet if he checks. If it filled him up I'd be surprised because I would figure he woulda shoved 2 pr on the flop. The only boat hand that I could see is 96s here. And, well, if he went backdoor clubs, thats unlucky and gross. I can't even think of a flush draw that makes sense with his attitude and play. K8cc, maybe?? I dunno.Also, because you shoved the turned, in future posts I would not include the river card, it just could lead to biased posts because you went from the 2nd nuts, to like the 28th nuts(i didn't really count, so don't correct).Hope it turned out well

[MovingIn 0]

If it's a crappy structure, then it DOES become an ALL IN game after a certain point, closer to the midgame than the endgame.That said, you're short stacked and though we don't know the other stacks involved before your raise, I gather many of them are short too and that the typical stack at this stage is short. Why are you raising pre from the BB in an unraised pot if you don't have every intention of getting the rest in no matter what comes down?If we raise from this spot, it should either be for value or to build a pot that we're going to eventually stack off into.

[Jimako03 0]

K8 of clubs????????????????

[cdipierr 0]

I agree with the don't raise preflop school of thought.But that said, if you do raise preflop, what are you going to accomplish on the flop with the bet? If you're ahead, you're likely going to stay ahead until the river. If you're behind, he's calling at least, and you're essentially charging yourself 600 to draw to your gutshot and A. But, if you do continuation bet, the turn push is standard. I don't think I would have done the 30 second Hollywood. Since you want a call (despite the fact you got rivered), a fast push tends to imply weak to these types of players, and he might be more inclined to call with his club draw (which, again, we want).

[dt1313 0]

Thanks to everyone who replied. I greatly appreciate all the feedback.JCarver - Thanks very much for taking the time to reply. It's nice to see you so active, so soon, here at FCP.

If you wanted to just win the pot on the flop you probably should have bet around 900 or just go all in. I agree that you played it well otherwise.

I don't really agree with shoving this flop but I can see your point of view in regards to betting a little more as a cb. Although if I bet any more I may as well have shoved the flop. No ?

I generally wouldn't raise outta the BB here with A7ss, but thats just me. I like the flop bet size, a lot. I don't like the people saying you should shove the flop. Thats 2400 into a 1200 pot, with a gutshot and an overcard. Turn I think I check behind and let him think I have air and have given up, especially with the 1/2 pot bet on the flop. The river I call anything, and make a 1000 bet if he checks. If it filled him up I'd be surprised because I would figure he woulda shoved 2 pr on the flop. The only boat hand that I could see is 96s here. And, well, if he went backdoor clubs, thats unlucky and gross. I can't even think of a flush draw that makes sense with his attitude and play. K8cc, maybe?? I dunno.Also, because you shoved the turned, in future posts I would not include the river card, it just could lead to biased posts because you went from the 2nd nuts, to like the 28th nuts(i didn't really count, so don't correct).Hope it turned out well

Would you mind elaborating on why you wouldn't raise from the BB ? I feel against these mostly remedial players, they see completing as a "discount" but then fold to almost any aggression. Since the villain didn't fold I wasn't exactly upset considering I put my hand against his almost ATC range. I like what you're saying about checking behind on the turn hoping he'll lead into us on the river with the mindset that we must have missed since we didn't bet the turn.Duly noted about not putting up the river card. I hear ya on the potential biased replies because of it.

If it's a crappy structure, then it DOES become an ALL IN game after a certain point, closer to the midgame than the endgame.That said, you're short stacked and though we don't know the other stacks involved before your raise, I gather many of them are short too and that the typical stack at this stage is short. Why are you raising pre from the BB in an unraised pot if you don't have every intention of getting the rest in no matter what comes down?If we raise from this spot, it should either be for value or to build a pot that we're going to eventually stack off into.

I totally understand that the structure dictates this type of tourney becoming a shove fest. My point in the OP was that some of these players think that's the only move in poker. It's the ESPN or TV effect imo.I hear what you're saying about my stack size and being prepared to get it all in if I'm raising pre (which is exactly what I was prepared to do) In the OP I feel I explained why the hand played out the way it did. Had the turn not been such a perfect card I was still ready to shove basically any card he checked over. There are a lot of spots in these tourneys and for that matter NLHE in general (imo at least) where we take down the pot with a second barrel, so I was ready to fire almost any turn card. If the turn was something that didn't help and he shoved into me, I probably would have folded. I know more often then not, it isn't the correct play to put almost 1/2 our stack and then fold the turn but I must say against these players in certain spots you can throw most of what's +ev out the window and just play the players. I've got a good enough feel for what most of them do that I'll let myself get blinded down even lower than what I should, in order to pick a better spot where they'll just give me their chips.cdipierr - What I was trying to accomplish with the cb was taking down the pot (obviously) I understand what you're saying about being WA or WB and drawing pretty thin. What I haven't conveyed properly (I guess) is how bad these people are. I have seen a hand like Q5 or K5 sooted get show down in a spot like this after calling 3 streets. I have also seen a hand like that shown when they fold after being 2nd barreled and having missed. I did mention this villain was probably TAG but I can see him completing KQ, KJ, QJ suited or unsuited and still calling the CB. Especially if he had diamonds. To everyone- If we don't raise preflop and just check our option do you bet the flop ? Check behind and bet or shove the gin card on the turn ?Final results:He calls the turn shove like I said and flips over : A 3 and proceeds to bink the river. I smiled, asked him how the hell he calls there (in a manner that wasn't mean at all, I do know him) he proceeded to apologize and says to the guy next to him (who followed up my question with a "yea, how the hell do you call there") "I just felt it". I laugh to myself as I walk across the room to say goodbye to some friends.Again, Thank You all for your thoughts and suggestions... I really do appreciate it.Dan