Newsweek Article On Palin

[vbnautilus 48]

I'm not sure if you are doing this on purpose, or if you really can't see the difference. This is not the kind of elitism Obama is accused of.Elite = talented, intelligent, top of their gameElitist = arrogant, looks down on others without cause.For example, Tony Romo is elite, yet humble.A statement like this:is elitist (although I am willing to admit that it is likely at least 50% for humor/shock value).Saying people won't vote for you because bitter people are clinging to guns and religion is elitist. I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation of this statement that makes it otherwise, but I am open to the possibility that it is being misinterpreted.

Ah, no you are just defining 'elitist' wrong. It has to do with valuing the elite. From wikipedia:Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite — a select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

It is not an "assumption". It is a conclusion based on evidence. If you think Sarah Palin was chosen because she is the has the sharpest, most well-developed mind, or the deepest insight into the complex systems that drive international politics or the economy, then you might want to let the campaign know so they can start advertising her that way instead of as a small town hockey mom. As for her education, that is a matter of public record. She enrolled at Hawaii Pacific College, left after one semester and transferred to North Idaho College, spent two semesters there and transfered to the University of Idaho, where she spent two additional semesters before transferring to Matanusksa-Susitna College before finally finishing at University of Idaho once again. Sound like one of our top academic achievers to you?

Sounds like she was busy with life but persistant enough to finish and get a degree.Getting a degree from the University of Idaho is evidence that she is uneducated? That sounds fairly elitist.She may not have one of the most well-developed minds but she knew enough to get elected Governer of the State of Alaska, and then was able to stand up to the long corrupt establishment and break it up. But to hell with actual achievement lets look at the resumes. For all his education and plotting the course to the presidency from his college years all Obama has to offer is socialism. If you want a sneak peek at what you have to look forward to from your Ivy league Genius take a look at the inner city school systems. They have been run by people in lock step with his views for over 20 years now. His solution will be to raise taxes and pump in more money. WoW!!! Brilliant, only and Ivy Leaguer of the Harvard law review could come up with that one. I don't have a problem with Obama being well educated, I have a problem with him either not having any core beliefs or for keeping them hidden from the public while he runs for the presidency. His views have changed so much that I have trouble keeping up with them. Are you for adding "ivy league education" to the list of qualifications to be president? Or maybe a list of colleges/universities worthy enough to provide us a president.What was Harry Trumans education?

[vbnautilus 48]

A bachelor of arts degree is easy to get especially with family connections, check out his years at Vanderbilt, I think it was 6 years and zero degree's.

Look man he graduated with honor from the top institution in the land. His education is not in question. You're comparing him to someone who shifted around from community college to community college and saying she looks like a rhodes scholar compared to him? Very puzzling. (especially Gore left Vanderbilt before receiving his law degree to run successfully for congress). But again, I don't need to vouch for someone else's credentials, we are talking about Sarah Palin here and what evidence there is of how incredibly intelligent she is.

[Balloon guy 158]

Didn't Kennedy fill his cabinet with Ivey League smarties?They sure did a good job in Vietnam

[vbnautilus 48]

Getting a degree from the University of Idaho is evidence that she is uneducated? That sounds fairly elitist.

For the last time, YES! We are looking for the MOST WELL-EDUCATED, MOST INTELLIGENT, the elitist of the elite to be second in line for the most powerful position IN THE WORLD.

She may not have one of the most well-developed minds

Then she should never be in charge of the button. End of story.

but she knew enough to get elected Governer of the State of Alaska, and then was able to stand up to the long corrupt establishment and break it up. But to hell with actual achievement lets look at the resumes.

Just because the state of Alaska decides to put a pentacostal hockey mom in their highest position does not mean that the rest of the country needs to follow suit.

For all his education and plotting the course to the presidency from his college years all Obama has to offer is socialism. If you want a sneak peek at what you have to look forward to from your Ivy league Genius take a look at the inner city school systems. They have been run by people in lock step with his views for over 20 years now. His solution will be to raise taxes and pump in more money. WoW!!! Brilliant, only and Ivy Leaguer of the Harvard law review could come up with that one. I don't have a problem with Obama being well educated, I have a problem with him either not having any core beliefs or for keeping them hidden from the public while he runs for the presidency. His views have changed so much that I have trouble keeping up with them.

Then don't vote for him. The complaint we are discussing here is that Palin is being held up as a good candidate because of her ordinariness rather than because of her extraordinariness.

Are you for adding "ivy league education" to the list of qualifications to be president? Or maybe a list of colleges/universities worthy enough to provide us a president.

We always use all the evidence available to us to evaluate a candidate. Her education was brought up in support of the claim that she is not extraordinarily intelligent. You yourself agree that she is not, so I don't know why I even had to make that argument.

[SAM_Hard8 50]

Look man he graduated with honor from the top institution in the land. His education is not in question. You're comparing him to someone who shifted around from community college to community college and saying she looks like a rhodes scholar compared to him? Very puzzling. (especially Gore left Vanderbilt before receiving his law degree to run successfully for congress). But again, I don't need to vouch for someone else's credentials, we are talking about Sarah Palin here and what evidence there is of how incredibly intelligent she is.

He went to Vandy for a divinity degree and when he couldn't finish that switched to law and didn't finish that either. Doesn't sound to impressive to me.More importantly where is the evidence that she is not intelligent? Her college record doesn't show it. All it really shows is a young woman searching for something. She made her way to governor fighting her own party along the way with zero help starting with nothing while Algore did it with his daddies money and name.Nothing he has done has ever impressed me.

[vbnautilus 48]

Didn't Kennedy fill his cabinet with Ivey League smarties?They sure did a good job in Vietnam

Let's just get this out of our system right now so I don't have to keep responding to it. "X went to Harvard and he sucked as president!"No one has said that some kind of educational background guarantees successful leadership. The question here is that when seeking the person for the most important job in the land, are we looking for the person who has the best training, the most intelligence and the best grasp on reality, or are we looking for someone who is the most average, common, relatable, "like us" kind of person?

[vbnautilus 48]

He went to Vandy for a divinity degree and when he couldn't finish that switched to law and didn't finish that either. Doesn't sound to impressive to me.More importantly where is the evidence that she is not intelligent? Her college record doesn't show it. All it really shows is a young woman searching for something. She made her way to governor fighting her own party along the way with zero help starting with nothing while Algore did it with his daddies money and name.Nothing he has done has ever impressed me.

His intelligence doesn't particularly impress me either. I didn't vote for him. Why are you putting me in the position of defending Al Gore when I never brought him up?

[SAM_Hard8 50]

Didn't Kennedy fill his cabinet with Ivey League smarties?They sure did a good job in Vietnam

Robert McNamara should be hung for all of the lives he cost with his team of wizz kids. It really pissed me off when he is trotted out as an expert on defense and war by the networks.

[SAM_Hard8 50]

His intelligence doesn't particularly impress me either. I didn't vote for him. Why are you putting me in the position of defending Al Gore when I never brought him up?

Hell I don't remember.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

The question here is that when seeking the person for the most important job in the land, are we looking for the person who has the best training, the most intelligence and the best grasp on reality, or are we looking for someone who is the most average, common, relatable, "like us" kind of person?

and in your opinion, BO and JB are these people?

[hblask 1]

Ah, no you are just defining 'elitist' wrong. It has to do with valuing the elite. From wikipedia:...

You city boys and your fancy "word definitions" think you're such hotshots....OK, but really, that's not what Obama is accused of. Use a different word if you like, but common usage of words matters, too. In formal speech (research papers, public speaking), we try to stick to strict grammatical and language rules. In informal speech, such as political debates, words mean what they mean. "Elitist" in the context of this debate doesn't mean the same as that formal definition. Perhaps Obama critics should use a different word, such as "arrogant" or "snobby", but those would bring up whole other unintended implications.For my part, I don't care if the candidates are elitist in either sense of the word, I care about their what policies they want to inflict on us.

[vbnautilus 48]

and in your opinion, BO and JB are these people?

I haven't decided yet if Obama fits the bill. I know for certain that Sarah Palin/JM doesn't, so if it comes down to a relative decision its pretty easy for me. But I generally don't vote unless I really support the candidate.

[SAM_Hard8 50]

For my part, I don't care if the candidates are elitist in either sense of the word, I care about their what policies they want to inflict on us.

great choice of words.

[vbnautilus 48]

You city boys and your fancy "word definitions" think you're such hotshots....OK, but really, that's not what Obama is accused of. Use a different word if you like, but common usage of words matters, too. In formal speech (research papers, public speaking), we try to stick to strict grammatical and language rules. In informal speech, such as political debates, words mean what they mean. "Elitist" in the context of this debate doesn't mean the same as that formal definition. Perhaps Obama critics should use a different word, such as "arrogant" or "snobby", but those would bring up whole other unintended implications.For my part, I don't care if the candidates are elitist in either sense of the word, I care about their what policies they want to inflict on us.

Yeah but if we were all in agreement that the president should be elite, then when a candidate paints themselves in that light it would not be considered snobbish, it would be just normal campaign work. There are certain contexts where it is acceptable, even necessary to talk oneself up; like in a job interview you're not taken as arrogant for touting your accomplishments. However, since some of us are attached to the idea that the president should be "just one of us" then anything said to elevate oneself becomes obnoxious.

[hblask 1]

Yeah but if we were all in agreement that the president should be elite, then when a candidate paints themselves in that light it would not be considered snobbish, it would be just normal campaign work. There are certain contexts where it is acceptable, even necessary to talk oneself up; like in a job interview you're not taken as arrogant for touting your accomplishments. However, since some of us are attached to the idea that the president should be "just one of us" then anything said to elevate oneself becomes obnoxious.

Again, he's not being criticized for talking big about himself, as that is expected. He's being criticized for talking down about those bitter small towners who are too stupid to vote for him.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Again, he's not being criticized for talking big about himself, as that is expected. He's being criticized for talking down about those bitter small towners who are too stupid to vote for him.

Yes, and I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Elitism or snobiness or whatever you want to call it is a very real phenomonon in BO, and the MSM including SH. And I would much rather vote for someone who ran out of a sense of responsability and service than someone who has had the ambition to become president since he was in college( or before), and sees himself as the savior of the country.

[vbnautilus 48]

And I would much rather vote for someone who ran out of a sense of responsability and service than someone who has had the ambition to become president since he was in college( or before), and sees himself as the savior of the country.

Why do you think those things are mutually exclusive? You think Obama doesn't have a sense of responsibility and service?

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Why do you think those things are mutually exclusive? You think Obama doesn't have a sense of responsibility and service?

Only in a narcissistic sense. When I first heard him speak, I was impressed and he seemed reasonable compared to the current democratic bunch in Washington. After a while I started reading about him, and found that not only is he a typical politician but but his voting record is strictly along party lines and very left wing. So much for reaching across the aisle. As I read what little I could find about his actual policy proposals, I found that he and Michelle are basic socialists and anti capitalism. As I followed him through the campaign I was surprised about how blatantly he would flip flop on issues as the political winds changed. Then it became apparent why, he wasn't being challenged by the media. As an opposing campaign would point out anything about Obama the MSM would start defending him. The media dropped any pretense of being objective. So finally to answer your question, no I think he sees the presidency as his entitlement, which is why he demonizes anyone who dares oppose him.

[El Guapo 8]

I certainly didn't intend to... I can't see where I did that. edit: maybe you misunderstood what i meant by "you are an average citizen". I wasn't calling you an average citizen, I was asking if to have a connection with the average citizen would mean that one was an average citizen.IQ is a very narrow way to define intelligence. I agreeWell then we wouldn't choose them as president. We're looking for a needle in a haystack here, the person who is *best* qualified for this job. No one says that any intelligent person would make a great president. It's just that the person who we choose should show extraordinary mental capabilites.

I was kidding with you about the calling me dumb part, I already know I'm dumb. And yes I consider myself to be the average American.What I think is being confused is scholastic intelligence and that of accomplishment. I took 6 years to finish college, but I did finish. I worked full time through most of college until the last year when I doubled up on units to get done. This says nothing about her intelligence level. For all we know she could be smarter than Obama based on testing. We will never know that answer. But that alone does not make someone more or less qualified to become POTUS or VPOTUS or Senator or name you position.So if Palin in her early 20's went to a couple different schools, got some life experience and then decided to make a difference one step at a time. PTA, City Council, Mayor, Working with DA then Governor. That to me is more impressive than what any of the other 3 candidates have accomplished.Yes McCain endured a great ordeal, yes Obama is intelligent, (I don't know enough about Biden). Let me ask you this. In recent History, have we unequivocally ever had the best man for the job running for President? I would guess that is a no.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Let me ask you this. In recent History, have we unequivocally ever had the best man for the job running for President? I would guess that is a no.

No, and that is a very good point that has yet to be mentioned in this thread. There have been some that have risen to the occasion but no is the answer to your question.

[Balloon guy 158]

Let me ask you this. In recent History, have we unequivocally ever had the best man for the job running for President? I would guess that is a no.

Rush said he won't take the cut in pay

[vbnautilus 48]

For all we know she could be smarter than Obama based on testing. We will never know that answer. But that alone does not make someone more or less qualified to become POTUS or VPOTUS or Senator or name you position.

I don't think intelligence testing is the gold standard for determining intelligence. For me, watching and listening to how the person speaks and carries themselves tells me more about their mental capacity than an IQ test. Any intelligence test which puts SP above BO is likely to be either broken or very narrow in scope. But the whole point of this is that no one really thinks Palin is particularly smart; she is being marketed as a regular family woman at a slightly more important PTA meeting. To quote SH again:The problem, as far as our political process is concerned, is that half the electorate revels in Palin's lack of intellectual qualifications. When it comes to politics, there is a mad love of mediocrity in this country. "They think they're better than you!" is the refrain that (highly competent and cynical) Republican strategists have set loose among the crowd, and the crowd has grown drunk on it once again. "Sarah Palin is an ordinary person!" Yes, all too ordinary.We have all now witnessed apparently sentient human beings, once provoked by a reporter's microphone, saying things like, "I'm voting for Sarah because she's a mom. She knows what it's like to be a mom." Such sentiments suggest an uncanny (and, one fears, especially American) detachment from the real problems of today. The next administration must immediately confront issues like nuclear proliferation, ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and covert wars elsewhere), global climate change, a convulsing economy, Russian belligerence, the rise of China, emerging epidemics, Islamism on a hundred fronts, a defunct United Nations, the deterioration of American schools, failures of energy, infrastructure and Internet security … the list is long, and Sarah Palin does not seem competent even to rank these items in order of importance, much less address any one of them.

[El Guapo 8]

I think you are posting the main difference between Conservative and Democrats.Conservative: For most things we are smart enough to take care of it on our own.Democrats: Most people are not smart and cannot think for themselves, thus we need really smart people in office to make those decisions for you.BTW who is SH?

[Zealous Donkey 0]

I don't think intelligence testing is the gold standard for determining intelligence. For me, watching and listening to how the person speaks and carries themselves tells me more about their mental capacity than an IQ test. Any intelligence test which puts SP above BO is likely to be either broken or very narrow in scope. But the whole point of this is that no one really thinks Palin is particularly smart; she is being marketed as a regular family woman at a slightly more important PTA meeting. To quote SH again:The problem, as far as our political process is concerned, is that half the electorate revels in Palin's lack of intellectual qualifications. When it comes to politics, there is a mad love of mediocrity in this country. "They think they're better than you!" is the refrain that (highly competent and cynical) Republican strategists have set loose among the crowd, and the crowd has grown drunk on it once again. "Sarah Palin is an ordinary person!" Yes, all too ordinary.We have all now witnessed apparently sentient human beings, once provoked by a reporter's microphone, saying things like, "I'm voting for Sarah because she's a mom. She knows what it's like to be a mom." Such sentiments suggest an uncanny (and, one fears, especially American) detachment from the real problems of today. The next administration must immediately confront issues like nuclear proliferation, ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and covert wars elsewhere), global climate change, a convulsing economy, Russian belligerence, the rise of China, emerging epidemics, Islamism on a hundred fronts, a defunct United Nations, the deterioration of American schools, failures of energy, infrastructure and Internet security … the list is long, and Sarah Palin does not seem competent even to rank these items in order of importance, much less address any one of them.

No I think she is being marketed as a true Washington outsider that has acted against the status quo of politics as usual. She(and McCain) actually are what Obama tries to represent. And to any undecided voters this is obvious. As I stated in an earlier post once you start digging under the surface of Obama's persona there is nothing there except an intelligent, talented politician. I also agree with the poster earlier who stated that in a lot of the article you could substitute the name Obama for Palin. A lot of the same criticisms would apply more to Obama than to Palin. Has the guy not seen an Obama rally. Any non black candidate would have been run out of this election if they had as close an association with someone as Obama had with Jerimiah Wright. I have a much bigger problem with Obama supporters ignoring his associations with Wright, Rezco, and Ayers.