A Hand From A Venetian Deep Stack Tourney

[monix 0]

A $550 buy-in tournament. We are in Level 4, blinds are 100/200 with a 50 ante, and we are ten handed. I have an average chip stack of ~16.5K. It is folded to me in the high jack, and I raise to 1,000 with 77. A good, aggressive player on the button calls (he started with ~15K).The flop is Js Jc 2s. I bet 1,300, and the button calls. The turn is the 2d. I bet 2,000, and the button raises to 6,000. I think for a while, and eliminate these holdings: QQ+ as he would have re-raised pre-flop, and I feel strongly he does not have a J or a 2. He might have 88, 99, TT, AK, AQ, or a spade flush draw. I decide to call. The river is 6d. The pot is ~17,000, I have ~8,000 and the button has ~6,500.What is your action, and why?

[chrozzo 19]

A $550 buy-in tournament. We are in Level 4, blinds are 100/200 with a 50 ante, and we are ten handed. I have an average chip stack of ~16.5K. It is folded to me in the high jack, and I raise to 1,000 with 77. A good, aggressive player on the button calls (he started with ~15K).The flop is Js Jc 2s. I bet 1,300, and the button calls. The turn is the 2d. I bet 2,000, and the button raises to 6,000. I think for a while, and eliminate these holdings: QQ+ as he would have re-raised pre-flop, and I feel strongly he does not have a J or a 2. He might have 88, 99, TT, AK, AQ, or a spade flush draw. I decide to call. The river is 6d. The pot is ~17,000, I have ~8,000 and the button has ~6,500.What is your action, and why?

id have a beer..then think about it some more

[Suited_Up 2]

Raise less preflop. After the big PF raise, the flop bet is too small. Though I know sometimes bet sizes in live poker get a little funky, especially on the flop... but I still don't really like the huge PF raise.As played.... If you think you're ahead, you can pretty much do anything. If you think you might be middle of the pack, where he might have 77/88 or something like that, then a shove might get a fold, but it depends on the player. If you really think he's just representing that Jack without having it, then I probably shove the river.

[gfdsa146 0]

Oops...wrong forum...could a mod please move this to Tournament Strategy?A $550 buy-in tournament. We are in Level 4, blinds are 100/200 with a 50 ante, and we are ten handed. I have an average chip stack of ~16.5K. It is folded to me in the hijack, and I raise to 1,000 with 77. A good, aggressive player on the button calls (he started with ~15K).The flop is Js Jc 2s. I bet 1,300, and the button calls. The turn is the 2d. I bet 2,000, and the button raises to 6,000. I think for a while, and eliminate these holdings: QQ+ as he would have re-raised pre-flop, and I feel strongly he does not have a J or a 2. He might have 88, 99, TT, AK, AQ, or a spade flush draw. I decide to call. The river is 6d. The pot is ~17,000, I have ~8,000 and the button has ~6,500.What is your action, and why?

[Vtlaxer09 4]

the problem with your bet sizing here is that you're forcing yourself to potentially play a hand for all your chips. In this case... you're raise to 1k instead of 600-700 is making the other bets HUGE.The way i play it (mainly because I am a huge advocate of pot control when we're oop and we have a marginal holding against a good player)raise to 700 pre.. bet 8-900 on flop.. check/call the turn... check/call the river. We know the villain is going to be floating us here with a wide range especially with that flop that probably did not hit you. As soon as he calls that flop... we can limit his range to air (maybe 2 overs), a flush draw (which probably raises the flop so its less likely) and a hand that has us crushed so I just like to shut down and go into calling station mode and lose the minimum if he did flop a monster.That said, with the way you played the hand... I dont think that we can flat a raise here with our stack size... by calling the 4k more on the turn... you've put 10,300 of your stack in.. (almost 2/3 of ur stack).. so you're commiting ur stack at this point imo...Since u did call, its a great river, and u just have to rep the flush draw and make a "sighing" check and obviously call his shove... I just really hate the way teh hand played out as you're forcing yourself to make a decision for your entire stack when you started the hand with ~80 bb's.

[WhatArunAA 0]

the problem with your bet sizing here is that you're forcing yourself to potentially play a hand for all your chips. In this case... you're raise to 1k instead of 600-700 is making the other bets HUGE.The way i play it (mainly because I am a huge advocate of pot control when we're oop and we have a marginal holding against a good player)raise to 700 pre.. bet 8-900 on flop.. check/call the turn... check/call the river. We know the villain is going to be floating us here with a wide range especially with that flop that probably did not hit you. As soon as he calls that flop... we can limit his range to air (maybe 2 overs), a flush draw (which probably raises the flop so its less likely) and a hand that has us crushed so I just like to shut down and go into calling station mode and lose the minimum if he did flop a monster.That said, with the way you played the hand... I dont think that we can flat a raise here with our stack size... by calling the 4k more on the turn... you've put 10,300 of your stack in.. (almost 2/3 of ur stack).. so you're commiting ur stack at this point imo...Since u did call, its a great river, and u just have to rep the flush draw and make a "sighing" check and obviously call his shove... I just really hate the way teh hand played out as you're forcing yourself to make a decision for your entire stack when you started the hand with ~80 bb's.

Agreed...As played i'm check calling the river... hes never folding a worse hand to a shove.. and you are going to pay him off when he has a bigger hand anyways.. but you still get the random bluffs in there.. I'm folding to the turn raise though.

[looshle 6]

You really need to lower your bet sizes Bart. This is the biggest problem. I would raise to 500 pre, but 600 is standard. You can bet 600 on the flop, and check call like 1k on the turn and make a river decision.Everything in NL is snowballed by the opening raise. Smaller raises preflop keep the pots smaller and more manageable. You can get the same information for 600 as you can for 1000.

[JustLikeNegs 1]

i totally agree here with the preflop raise being too big, if u raise to 600, then the flop cbet can be alot smaller, not only keeping the pot down to a reasonable size, but also not commiting a high % of your stack on latter streets.also, i think the river card has changed nothing, so if u are calling the raise on the turn, you should be at least check calling a river bet. just my opinion.

[Suited_Up 2]

Agreed...As played i'm check calling the river... hes never folding a worse hand to a shove.. and you are going to pay him off when he has a bigger hand anyways.. but you still get the random bluffs in there.. I'm folding to the turn raise though.

You're right, I suck. Mostly because there's just not that many real hands we actually beat.I was right on the rest though.

[copernicus 0]

I like the PF raise size. Youre very happy to steal the blinds/antes here and if button is good a normal size raise is an invitation to resteal, and I dont think you want to race if he does. The flop and turn bets are too big though. A probe size bet on both is plenty, or even check/call the turn. River is tough, but I think youre going to check/call, then push is a better line. Villain may have a big A and be planning to check behind but whatever he has you want him making the decision for all his chips. You can check/fold here with an M of 10 also.

[BoSox86 0]

I think you go all in preflop. Put maxium pressure on him. That way you can make KJ pay the max to beat you. After the flop I think you need to check it also move in. Betting the way you did, it allowed him to bluff you off the hand, which he obv did. Calling the river is a no brainer, imo. The only jack he could have is AJ, and you said he was a good player. Why would he call your preflop raise with AJ? He could have JJ, but you can't live in fear of quads. I think his action in this hand, the whole way through, points to AK or AQ ,and I really hope you didn't fold. Anyway, hope the hand turned out alright for you! GL at the tables!

[monix 0]

Ok guys...I changed the bet sizes to try and get you all to focus on the river decision. The actual betting was;PF - I raise to 700, button calls (pot is 1,950)Flop - I bet 850, button calls (pot is now 3,650)Turn - I bet 1,000, button raises to 4,000, I call (pot is now 11,650 - I could have checked, but I was concerned about the flush draw).What is your line on the river?

[LJB723 0]

Ok guys...I changed teh bet sizes to try and get you all to focus on teh river decision. The actual betting was;PF - I raise to 700, button call (pot is 1950)Turn - I bet 1,000, button raises to 4,000, I call. (I could have checked, but I was concerned about the flush draw).What is your line on the river?

I wouldn't make the river, unless you can tell me exactly wtf you beat that c/r the turn?

[copernicus 0]

I wouldn't make the river, unless you can tell me exactly wtf you beat that c/r the turn?

Especially live...I dont see a c/r being light. Online OPs original ranges are possible for a c/r, but with the smaller pot its much easier to get away from.

[Mercury69 3]

Agreed...As played i'm check calling the river... hes never folding a worse hand to a shove.. and you are going to pay him off when he has a bigger hand anyways.. but you still get the random bluffs in there.. I'm folding to the turn raise though.

Good read

Ok guys...I changed the bet sizes to try and get you all to focus on the river decision. The actual betting was;PF - I raise to 700, button call (pot is 1950)Turn - I bet 1,000, button raises to 4,000, I call. (I could have checked, but I was concerned about the flush draw).What is your line on the river?

For me, it's re-raise all in after his c/r or fold to his c/r...I think this line can get draws to fold, as well as a hand that may be beating you at this point. The 2 can be used as a scare card and his c/r feels more like a bluff with a naked A than anthing else. If he has a J or a 2, well, the odds just bit you in the ass, but you have to push those edges sometimes...As played, check/call the river

[monix 0]

You really need to lower your bet sizes Bart. This is the biggest problem. I would raise to 500 pre, but 600 is standard. You can bet 600 on the flop, and check call like 1k on the turn and make a river decision.

Justin,Sorry for changing the action to try and get focus on the river decision.That being said, isn't a 3 x BB + (some portion of the antes) = standard? 500 or 600 lays pretty good odds to the players behind you. My raise to 700 lays 1.79:1 and better than that to the blinds. A raise to only 500 lays 2.1:1.

[Nopair3high 0]

I'm a fan of raising to around 750 to 800 here preflop. However, as played I think maybe throwing another $2,000 chips at the river might be a good play as a defensive bet. I don't think you can check/fold here. I think throwing another 2,000 at it might be a smart play because if he raises you were calling anyways, but by throwing that little bet out there if he's weak and was trying to steal on the turn he may just call the 2k and leave himself 4k to play with in back and if you're beat you got off a little cheaper, and if you're ahead you still got a little more value out of him.

[Sheiky 0]

Justin,Sorry for changing the action to try and get focus on the river decision.That being said, isn't a 3 x BB + (some portion of the antes) = standard? 500 or 600 lays pretty good odds to the players behind you. My raise to 700 lays 1.79:1 and better than that to the blinds. A raise to only 500 lays 2.1:1.

So when you raise to 1000 and get called, you're playing a 2800 chip pot against someone who's likely to have a better hand that you.

[copernicus 0]

Justin,Sorry for changing the action to try and get focus on the river decision.That being said, isn't a 3 x BB + (some portion of the antes) = standard? 500 or 600 lays pretty good odds to the players behind you. My raise to 700 lays 1.79:1 and better than that to the blinds. A raise to only 500 lays 2.1:1.

Yes. With stacks this deep you have to increase the PF raise with strong hands that dont play well after the flop. Around a pot size bet is usually about right, in this case the pot is 800 when it gets to you, so a raise to 1200 isnt out of line (limiting the big to 2:1), 1000 is reasonable and looks big, 800 holds the last two players to 2:1 but gives the blinds decent odds, especially the big getting 2.66:1, a no brainer with just the hands you dont want to see a flop against...two broadways or any Ax>A7.If youre set mining then 800 looks ok.

[monix 0]

Results:The River is 6d – good news! The spade flush draw did not get there, nor did something like AK. Now all I was really worried about was a pocket pair higher than 77. I considered checking, but 88 to TT would check behind and I lose. If I bet half the pot, he can call getting 3:1 odds and have ~3,500 left, so I decided to push and put maximum pressure on him (not good – should have checked). He calls and sheepishly turns over 66. I stare in disbelief at the hand – another two-outer on the river. I would have felt better if he had a J or a 2.