Pedro A Hall Of Famer?

[Shimmering Wang 1]

One of my favorite baseball writers -- David Gassko -- on the value of a playoff win, and Schilling's value and HOF chances:http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/...-a-playoff-win/It is very, very nerdy, but I thought this was utterly fascinating

[PMJackson21 0]

I'll definitely float upstream here but I'd say Koufax was the more valuable pitcherThey worked that dude into the ground in the 60's - Pedro's one flaw is that he hasn't been able to work nearly as many innings If Koufax only pitched every fifth day and left after 6-8 innings he would have won a ton more gamesKoufax pitched over 300 innings 3 of his last 4 seasons - Pedros all time high is 240

In case you have never seen it Keith, this is a good article about Sandy from SI a few years back (pretty cool they put their whole archive online): http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...16396/index.htmHere's a part related to his elbow/amount of work he put in:In the last 26 days of his career, including a loss in the 1966 World Series, Koufax started seven times, threw five complete-game wins and had a 1.07 ERA. He clinched the pennant for Los Angeles for the second straight year with a complete game on two days rest. Everyone knew he was pitching with traumatic arthritis in his left elbow, but how bad could it be when he pitched like that? It was this bad: Koufax couldn't straighten his left arm—it was curved like a parenthesis. He had to have a tailor shorten the left sleeve on all his coats. Use of his left arm was severely limited when he wasn't pitching. On bad days he'd have to bend his neck to get his face closer to his left hand so that he could shave. And on the worst days he had to shave with his right hand. He still held his fork in his left hand, but sometimes he had to bend closer to the plate to get the food into his mouth. His elbow was shot full of cortisone several times a season. His stomach was always queasy from the cocktail of anti-inflammatories he swallowed before and after games, which he once said made him "half-high on the mound." He soaked his elbow in an ice bath for 30 minutes after each game, his arm encased in an inner tube to protect against frostbite. And even then his arm would swell an inch. He couldn't go on like this, not when his doctors could not rule out the possibility that he was risking permanent damage to his arm.

[GeneralGeeWhiz 0]

There are many people that deserve to get in before him. First ballot? No, but he definitely deserves to be in.

[Ron_Mexico 4,219]

if pedro isn't first ballot unanimous, no one is.all-time rankings:Adjusted ERA+: 1K/9: 3W%: 3K/BB: 3WHIP: 3

I don't believe anyone has ever been voted in unanimously. Sports writers are petty faggots. Or as they think, principled. Whatever. I don't believe Babe Ruth was unanimous.

I'll definitely float upstream here but I'd say Koufax was the more valuable pitcherThey worked that dude into the ground in the 60's - Pedro's one flaw is that he hasn't been able to work nearly as many innings If Koufax only pitched every fifth day and left after 6-8 innings he would have won a ton more gamesKoufax pitched over 300 innings 3 of his last 4 seasons - Pedros all time high is 240

You're so jewish.Kidding, but I was gonna mention the dominance of Koufax. I was disappointed Cane didnt. haha

[Shimmering Wang 1]

There are many people that deserve to get in before him. First ballot? No, but he definitely deserves to be in.

Really? Who? I could make or be swayed by an argument that Barry Bonds is more deserving of a Hall of Fame Spot than Pedro, because Bonds is very possibly the Greatest Ever. Maddux might be more deserving than Pedro. Perhaps one could argue Clemens.Unless I'm forgetting somebody, or you plan on making a bad generic argument, then I'm flummoxed. Who're the "many people that deserve to get in" before Pedro? Griffey? Bert Blyleven? Frank Thomas? Rock Raines?Wang

[PMJackson21 0]

Really? Who? I could make or be swayed by an argument that Barry Bonds is more deserving of a Hall of Fame Spot than Pedro, because Bonds is very possibly the Greatest Ever. Maddux might be more deserving than Pedro. Perhaps one could argue Clemens.Unless I'm forgetting somebody, or you plan on making a bad generic argument, then I'm flummoxed. Who're the "many people that deserve to get in" before Pedro? Griffey? Bert Blyleven? Frank Thomas? Rock Raines?Wang

Harold Baines and Otis Nixon. Baines for being in the league so long w/out anyone realizing it ('wait, he's still playing? no way!') and Nixon for giving hope to crack heads everywhere

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Harold Baines and Otis Nixon. Baines for being in the league so long w/out anyone realizing it ('wait, he's still playing? no way!') and Nixon for giving hope to crack heads everywhere

I already said Tim Raines.

[AmScray 355]

Raines is actually one of my own faves. Objectively, though, cries for him to be in the hall really speak to how dangerously close the Hall is to becoming Shamville, USA. The Hall of Fame "dry spell" in the mid 1990's that caused the induction of such unworthies as Phil Rizzuto, Jim Bunning and Larry Doby sparked this trend, which is in danger of continuing. The bar just cannot be lowered any further. It's already become the "Hall Of Firmly Above Average", which wasn't it's intent and shouldn't ever become it's intent either./

[GeneralGeeWhiz 0]

Oh absolutely. Pretty much the only reason Sox fans hate Clemens is that he went to the Yankees. Also, anybody that was on our team in '04 is loved forever in Boston, with the sole exception of Johnny Damon (cuz he went to the Yankees and stayed there). But Pedro was a God in Boston for 7 years. The fact that he's been too oft-injured to be a God for the Mets makes us love him even more I think (that we were lucky enough to watch him in his prime). Tony Armas and Carl Pavano for Pedro Martinez is one of the great trades of all time, if you're a Red Sox fan that is . It's not as hilarious as Pedro for Delino because the Expos needed to trade him cuz they couldn't afford him, and they did get our top pitching prospect. Dan Duquette should get more credit than he does - he signed Pedro, Manny, and also pulled a trade rivaling Pedro-Delino in hilarity: Heathcliff Slocumb - who at the time we would have traded for a bag of baseballs and a 6-pack - for Jason Varitek and Derek Lowe.

You guys should applaud the move. He isn't the same since he went to New York. He was pretty much done his last year in Boston.

[fleung22 1]

Pedro, Maddux?? I can't believe this is even debatable...I know so little about baseball but know that these are some of the top pitchers in the history of the game. no??!I feel like Schilling belongs there...I don't know the stats are there but he's been so clutch so often.anyhow, how do you guys feel about Randy Johnson? I always felt like he was the scariest to face...damn, if you get a bean ball you might be out for the year. just seems like he's tailed off really quick...i thought for sure he was gonna have a 25-win season in NYY.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Pedro, Maddux?? I can't believe this is even debatable...I know so little about baseball but know that these are some of the top pitchers in the history of the game. no??!I feel like Schilling belongs there...I don't know the stats are there but he's been so clutch so often.anyhow, how do you guys feel about Randy Johnson? I always felt like he was the scariest to face...damn, if you get a bean ball you might be out for the year. just seems like he's tailed off really quick...i thought for sure he was gonna have a 25-win season in NYY.

RJ is more of a lock than Shill, I think. And yes, Pedro and Maddux are no brainers.. no one's really arguing that, this threads more about bashing idiots like Tommy John than it is actually debating the issue. If Maddux and Pedro aren't in the hall of fame, no body should be.

[fleung22 1]

RJ is more of a lock than Shill, I think. And yes, Pedro and Maddux are no brainers.. no one's really arguing that, this threads more about bashing idiots like Tommy John than it is actually debating the issue. If Maddux and Pedro aren't in the hall of fame, no body should be.

more of a lock? hmm...I think it's different but right up there. all those championships for shilling and his post season record comes into affect. no doubt johnson kills during regular season with all them cy youngs.Randy Johnson * 10-time All-Star * Led the league in ERA four times ( * Led the league in strikeouts nine times * World Series co-MVP (Curt Schilling, 2001) * 5 time Cy Young Award winner * Pitched a perfect game against the Atlanta Braves Curt Shilling * 6 x All-Star selection * Post season record of 11-2 * 3 x World Series champion * Led AL in wins in 2004 * Led NL in wins in 2001 * Led NL in innings pitched in 1998 and 2001 * Led NL in strikeouts in 1997 and 1998 * major league record for consecutive starts without allowing an unearned run, at 69 games

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

more of a lock? hmm...I think it's different but right up there. all those championships for shilling and his post season record comes into affect. no doubt johnson kills during regular season with all them cy youngs.Randy Johnson * 10-time All-Star * Led the league in ERA four times ( * Led the league in strikeouts nine times * World Series co-MVP (Curt Schilling, 2001) * 5 time Cy Young Award winner * Pitched a perfect game against the Atlanta Braves Curt Shilling * 6 x All-Star selection * Post season record of 11-2 * 3 x World Series champion * Led AL in wins in 2004 * Led NL in wins in 2001 * Led NL in innings pitched in 1998 and 2001 * Led NL in strikeouts in 1997 and 1998 * major league record for consecutive starts without allowing an unearned run, at 69 games

I think the 5 cy youngs is the permanent thing here. Any player with 5 cy youngs or mvp's is a no brain hall of fame. i think shilling was great, and he was extremely clutch in the post season, but the post season is a small sample size. .and while I think it should be taken into account, and should be the thing that tips shilling into the hall, I think Randy Johnson's Season after monster season is more imopressive. Shilling is HOFer, but borderline. RJ is a no brainer.

[Jackets1407 0]

Haha....Tommy John desrves not to be in the HOF based solely on these comments. Pedro is a lock. First ballot imo. Smoltz is a lock, should be a first ballot guy but might take 2 or 3. Schilling is def a boderline guy but will eventually get in because of his postseason results imo.TJ is really really bitter...isn't having a reconstructive surgery named after you enough????

[AmScray 355]

anyhow, how do you guys feel about Randy Johnson? I always felt like he was the scariest to face...damn, if you get a bean ball you might be out for the year. just seems like he's tailed off really quick...i thought for sure he was gonna have a 25-win season in NYY.

He'll most likely be in the hall, but not first ballot. It may take him a while...RJ was the 1990's rebirth of the 'goon pitcher'. Back in the day, every team used to have a pitching goon but their application tapered off in the late 70's and 80's. Whenever you combine the goon mentality with actual throwing skills, you wind up with HOF pitching. Bob Gibson was probably the best goon pitcher ever to live and his stats speak for themselves.Hank Aaron's advice to Dusty Baker on batting against Gibson:

"'Don't dig in against Bob Gibson, he'll knock you down. He'd knock down his own grandmother if she dared to challenge him. Don't stare at him, don't smile at him, don't talk to him. He doesn't like it. If you happen to hit a home run, don't run too slow, don't run too fast. If you happen to want to celebrate, get in the tunnel first. And if he hits you, don't charge the mound, because he's a Gold Glove boxer.' I'm like, 'Damn, what about my 17-game hitting streak?' That was the night it ended."

[PMJackson21 0]

He'll most likely be in the hall, but not first ballot. It may take him a while...He was the 1990's rebirth of the 'goon pitcher'. Back in the day, every team used to have one but their application tapered off in the late 70's and 80's. Whenever you combine the goon mentality with actual throwing skills, you wind up with HOF pitching. Bob Gibson was probably the best goon pitcher ever to live and his stats speak for themselves.

Drysdale hit quite a bit more hitters then Gibson did in his career and was probably more obvious about it, but Gibson > Drysdale in every other way.Gibson hated all offensive players supposedly, and to this day is cold towards hitters. Sigh, different eras...

[CaneBrain 95]

I don't believe anyone has ever been voted in unanimously. Sports writers are petty faggots. Or as they think, principled. Whatever. I don't believe Babe Ruth was unanimous.You're so jewish.Kidding, but I was gonna mention the dominance of Koufax. I was disappointed Cane didnt. haha

I cant be all places at all times, sir.If thats what you are looking for I suggest you contact LoisMustDie by PM.Koufax, Pedro, tomato, tomahto. Both were ridiculous at their peak. Pedro should be an automatic first ballot hall of famer. I assume Koufax was as well.and Randy Johnson is also a lock! why are we only discussing people who are sure things? the guy won a whole heap of cy young awards and his K/9 ratio is ridiculous.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

He'll most likely be in the hall, but not first ballot. It may take him a while...

When it comes down to it, people will remember his 5 Cy Youngs -- including 4 in a row in the late 90s and early 00s -- and vote him in first ballot. He has 288 wins. If he gets to 300, he'll be a SLAM DUNK first-ballot HOFer, and my instincts are that he sticks around until he's won #300.First ballot, and I doubt it'll even be an issue. From 1993 -2002, here are his positions in the Cy Young balloting: 2nd, 3rd, 1st, (injured), 2nd, 7th, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1stWhen it comes down to it, it will be nearly impossible for most writers to vote against him. Maddux, Pedro, RJ, Clemens were the first-ballot talents of their generation.Glavine will probably end up being a first-ballot HOFer because of the multiple Cy Young awards and the 300 victories, even though he's not the pitcher that the four pitcher mentioned above were. Smoltz will be a very interesting case. He's going to get extra credit for being a closer, which has never made much sense to me, because a high-leverage reliever is less valuable than a 200+ IP starting pitcher. Wang

[PMJackson21 0]

I assume Koufax was as well.

Yup, with 86.87 %. http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers/d...playerId=117277People (writers included) loved Sandy though...

[AmScray 355]

People (writers included) loved Sandy though...

A lot of sports writers loved Sandy. There's a reason for that...Some pretty interesting articles about how much of his "greatness" revolved around the stadium at that time being an insanely pitcher oriented park. If you compare his home stats with his away stats, it becomes clear as a bell that had be pitched elsewhere, he would've been a great one, but not "the great one".

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Some pretty interesting articles about how much of his "greatness" revolved around the stadium at that time being an insanely pitcher oriented park. If you compare his home stats with his away stats, it becomes clear as a bell that had be pitched elsewhere, he would've been a great one, but not "the great one".

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/pspli...a01&year=00I don't know about that. True, his ERA was a half-run higher on the road, but his defense and park independent numbers -- specifically his BB/9 -- were also a little better at home. He actually gave up more HR in fewer innings pitched at home than on the road (though, to be fair, teams did slug 20 points higher against him on the road). I'm inclined to agree in general that Koufax had a big advantage pitching where he did, but it's not big enough to knock him down a full peg, I don't think. I could be persuaded with numbers, though. Wang

[PMJackson21 0]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/pspli...a01&year=00

Just looking at the splits, LOL at him being 13-4 in his career on 2 days rest, with 12 CGs and a 2.37. When was the last time someone even started on 2 days rest?

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Just looking at the splits, LOL at him being 13-4 in his career on 2 days rest, with 12 CGs and a 2.37. When was the last time someone even started on 2 days rest?

Aaron Harang came out of the bullpen in an extra innings game recently on 2 days rest. He pitched a few very good innings, and has been absolutely SHELLED since. As a sidenote, I think I'd have an orgasm if I saw a headline like "Andy Sonnanstine to throw on 2 days rest at Fenway Park" because I would so drop a 4 unit BOMB on the Devil Rays in that situation. "LOL OMG Sonnanstine is crap and on 2 days rest. Bet Sox -300 for: entire bankroll." (shrug) It's a different game nowadays. Lots of marginal pitchers have very long careers because they're not asked to throw 260+ innings a year. You'll see it happen more often near the end of the year, or at playoff time, in high leverage situations. Teams will have their best pitchers in the bullpen ready to throw on short notice on 2 days rest. But what's the point when you can get 300 league-average innings from your #5 starter and bullpen?Wang

[keith crime 8]

Koufax' ERA was better at home but his winning percentage was the same on the roadThey asked Bob Gibson about whether he thought the steroid era hitting stats were bogusand he said he thought all hitting stats were bogus after the lowered the mound after the year his era was like 1.12 - 68 i thinkIt wouldn't matter if Gibson were 97 - he's not to be ****ed with - he's one bad MF

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Koufax' ERA was better at home but his winning percentage was the same on the roadThey asked Bob Gibson about whether he thought the steroid era hitting stats were bogusand he said he thought all hitting stats were bogus after the lowered the mound after the year his era was like 1.12 - 68 i thinkIt wouldn't matter if Gibson were 97 - he's not to be ****ed with - he's one bad MF

Irrelevant.