Expelled Exposed

[CaneBrain 95]

I think I am just a realist that the dems are going to control both house for the next few years and that means education will go downhill.I guess the fact that there won't be any ID taught in public schools for decades at best makes me less likely to see what you guys have to worry about.Of course, it doesn't bother me, my kids were taught ID from day 1 and they all have assimulated into college life and not been affected. Other than being forced to hold their views in check less their grades suffer for it.

the bolded part represents the first time I think you have said something totally indefensible. no child left behind is the stupidest policy ever....a school is struggling and kids arent learning? Let's cut their funding that will show em!!i would understand if you made this point about defense spending or national security or even immigration. but education? samsonite....you are way off.

[Balloon guy 158]

the bolded part represents the first time I think you have said something totally indefensible. no child left behind is the stupidest policy ever....a school is struggling and kids arent learning? Let's cut their funding that will show em!!i would understand if you made this point about defense spending or national security or even immigration. but education? samsonite....you are way off.

I understand your thinking.But the fact is the No Child Left Behind was a democrat bill that only a republican pres could get through congress.Just as welfare reform was a republican bill, that only Bill Clinton could get through congress.Ted Kennedy wrote most of the education bill, Bush added very few things to it. He should get the blame, but let's not pretend the dems are innocent here, not when the vast majority of the program is theirs.Currently the California system pays over $10K per student per year. There are 3,000 kids in the local high school. And they can't afford music programs?The most elite private high school in the area that has ivey league schools coming to them to look at the students...charges $11K a year.You will never get me to feel bad about cutting school funding. Not while their test scores have always gone down; before No Child, during No Child and after No Child. Let's not blame No Child for that.

[Balloon guy 158]

..and not having become paleontologists!

Touche'I saw a report a few years back that 60% of high school science teachers believed cavemen lived during the time of dinosaurs.Let's not pretend the fall is far.

[CaneBrain 95]

I understand your thinking.But the fact is the No Child Left Behind was a democrat bill that only a republican pres could get through congress.Just as welfare reform was a republican bill, that only Bill Clinton could get through congress.Ted Kennedy wrote most of the education bill, Bush added very few things to it. He should get the blame, but let's not pretend the dems are innocent here, not when the vast majority of the program is theirs.Currently the California system pays over $10K per student per year. There are 3,000 kids in the local high school. And they can't afford music programs?The most elite private high school in the area that has ivey league schools coming to them to look at the students...charges $11K a year.You will never get me to feel bad about cutting school funding. Not while their test scores have always gone down; before No Child, during No Child and after No Child. Let's not blame No Child for that.

I know Ted Kennedy had a big hand in it.....it just boggles my mind that the one thing that democrats proposed that Bush got behind and ran with (and he did really push it and champion it....so blame must be spread equally on him if not more) was No Child Left Behind. It's an awful bill.And I do know that California is an extreme example of school spending waste.....most states do a lot more with a lot less.....the cuts they are making to an already crappy educational system here in Florida are stunning. 284 million dollars Miami Dade County has to cut from its budget this year. But we are building 305 million dollars worth of new prisons. Related much? That politicians here cant wrap their heads around the fact that undereducating children leads to a need for more prisons is depressing.Besides, education is one of those things where we always are going to feel like we are spending too much on it and yet it's worth it. That's how important educating children is because when we are old they will be running the show. Think of it as a long term investment for your retirement.

[KramitDaToad 0]

Taking your argument and extrapolating backwards, most societies were religiously led, and in these environments the current 'science' climates grew. So the fear that there would be a reduction in what is present based on our returning to what was past seems more likely to be a misguided slippery slope argument.

I don't think we're in danger of stopping the progress of science, and I am not saying that belief in God is interfering with scientific progress (although it may be, thats not the point I am making here). I do think we're potentially mitigating the benefits of that progress, and perhaps slowing it down. For example, the fact that creationism can carry the label of a scientific theory (when it is clearly not) is what allows states like Kansas to get it taught in children's science classes. The implications of this are profound -- I am mainly thinking about how these kids understand the scientific process. The distinction between a scientific theory and a religious theory is important; however it seems to be in the interest of certain proponents of religious theories to blur this line.

History shows that we shouldn't feel so secure regarding this progress continuing. A quick look at the Islamic golden age (~8th - 13th centuries) shows that Arabic world was a leader in sciences, industry and technology as well as agriculture, law, economics, literature and other aspects that we use to define an advanced civilistation.A resurgance of fundamental religion and you're left with a culture that could only be described as barbaric in areas.Likewise, more recently Zimbabwe - formerly the 'bread basket of Africa'. Introduce a anti-Western nut job and you have the mess you see in the news each night.Point is whether it's religiously, politically or egotistically motivated the overthrow of an advanced civilisation can and does happen. Even on massive scales.What is disturbing about the 'ID as a science' movement is the level of deceipt they are willing to go to gain control of what is taught to children. If you are willing to outright lie to achieve step 1, integrity goes out the window from step 2 onwards. The other disturbing point is that these very same people are highly politically motivated and form a very vocal part of the religous right in the US, and as such have the ear of any Republican president. Add that to the whole 'You have to be a Christian to be the president blah, blah, blah' and the cracks are there just waiting to be exploited.Keeping ID in the religous classes and science in the science classes goes a long way to maintaining integrity

[Loismustdie 0]

History shows that we shouldn't feel so secure regarding this progress continuing. A quick look at the Islamic golden age (~8th - 13th centuries) shows that Arabic world was a leader in sciences, industry and technology as well as agriculture, law, economics, literature and other aspects that we use to define an advanced civilistation.A resurgance of fundamental religion and you're left with a culture that could only be described as barbaric in areas.Likewise, more recently Zimbabwe - formerly the 'bread basket of Africa'. Introduce a anti-Western nut job and you have the mess you see in the news each night.Point is whether it's religiously, politically or egotistically motivated the overthrow of an advanced civilisation can and does happen. Even on massive scales.What is disturbing about the 'ID as a science' movement is the level of deceipt they are willing to go to gain control of what is taught to children. If you are willing to outright lie to achieve step 1, integrity goes out the window from step 2 onwards. The other disturbing point is that these very same people are highly politically motivated and form a very vocal part of the religous right in the US, and as such have the ear of any Republican president. Add that to the whole 'You have to be a Christian to be the president blah, blah, blah' and the cracks are there just waiting to be exploited.Keeping ID in the religous classes and science in the science classes goes a long way to maintaining integrity

History shows that we shouldn't feel secure, period. Once again it shows the paranoia that is on your side, and the insane need to control that which is uncontrollable, and in this case it's actually thought, which is sick at best but still a perfect example of how paranoid your side really is. It's awesome.

[Mercury69 3]

Who cares. I heard it's a shit movie anyway.

[KramitDaToad 0]

History shows that we shouldn't feel secure, period. Once again it shows the paranoia that is on your side, and the insane need to control that which is uncontrollable, and in this case it's actually thought, which is sick at best but still a perfect example of how paranoid your side really is. It's awesome.

Could you please, please, please at least attempt one post with a modicum of intelligence?A group of people lie and deceive in an attempt to take over a school curriculum and exert control over the education of children and you suggest those that protested were insane and paranoid? Where do you get your crack from?FWIW this issue was put in front of a right wing, Christian, George Bush appointed, federal judge and even he condemned the lack of morals from the ID camp.

[Randy Reed 0]

Could you please, please, please at least attempt one post with a modicum of intelligence?A group of people lie and deceive in an attempt to take over a school curriculum and exert control over the education of children and you suggest those that protested were insane and paranoid? Where do you get your crack from?FWIW this issue was put in front of a right wing, Christian, George Bush appointed, federal judge and even he condemned the lack of morals from the ID camp.

Sadly Lois is as unreasonable as the kids you are wanting to save from this type of reasoning.

[Loismustdie 0]

Could you please, please, please at least attempt one post with a modicum of intelligence?A group of people lie and deceive in an attempt to take over a school curriculum and exert control over the education of children and you suggest those that protested were insane and paranoid? Where do you get your crack from?FWIW this issue was put in front of a right wing, Christian, George Bush appointed, federal judge and even he condemned the lack of morals from the ID camp.

Sure. ID is being taught in roughly 95% of US households. If it's taught in schools, whats the difference? Nothing. THAT is where the paranoia comes in. That you think that taking it out of schools makes a difference. It doesn't. You actually think that it being taught in schools would somehow "control" what a child learns. I can live with that- why does your side get all the control? Why not just let the ideas flow and let the kids think for themselves? What are you so afraid of? It's paranoia because I don't know one, and I mean this, not one christian who cares whether or not God is taught in schools. Why? Because it doesn't matter,schools don't raise children, at least not ours, what is there to be afraid of? For us, it's a non-issue. There is nothing to fear. For you, not so much, you must control, it's the only way you "win" and even then you don't win anything. Kids just learn the truth elsewhere. Big whoop.

[Loismustdie 0]

Sadly Lois is as unreasonable as the kids you are wanting to save from this type of reasoning.

I suppose if the new definition of unreasonable is "head not completely shoved up ass" then, yeah. The argument over this idea is completely retarded, if a parent is who raises a child and not the school. Wait...oh, I see, you are counting on public schools to educate your kids. Well, I can tell you you are ****ed if that's the case.

[CaneBrain 95]

Sure. ID is being taught in roughly 95% of US households. If it's taught in schools, whats the difference? Nothing. THAT is where the paranoia comes in. That you think that taking it out of schools makes a difference. It doesn't. You actually think that it being taught in schools would somehow "control" what a child learns. I can live with that- why does your side get all the control? Why not just let the ideas flow and let the kids think for themselves? What are you so afraid of? It's paranoia because I don't know one, and I mean this, not one christian who cares whether or not God is taught in schools. Why? Because it doesn't matter,schools don't raise children, at least not ours, what is there to be afraid of? For us, it's a non-issue. There is nothing to fear. For you, not so much, you must control, it's the only way you "win" and even then you don't win anything. Kids just learn the truth elsewhere. Big whoop.

I think the more reasonable atheists on this forum dont care if it is taught at school. Just teach it during religious studies not science because it is not science.And I know you were exaggerating but I think 95% seems high.Also, I think you have hit a huge hot button with your comment that parents raise kids not schools......frankly, that is how it should be but it is not always that way. Why else would schools teach sex education? Parents have gotten incredibly lazy and try and push their duties off on schools all the time. Lack of parental involvement is just as responsible for the dumbassery of our children as the failing public school system is.And on a personal level, I fear that ID will become the mandated theory that has to be taught if a school wants to receive Federal funding for their science programs. It sounds silly perhaps but that is EXACTLY how sex education works right now....you teach abstinence or you get no money. The only upside is ID is not science but it certainly is not dangerous....abstinence education is very dangerous (in that they out and out lie about the success rate of condoms....if they even mention prophylactics). Pretty much every study has concluded that abstinence education increases teen STD rates (as well as the likelihood of a teenage girl giving head or taking it in the buttsky!!!) because getting teenagers to stop ****ing is an impossible (hence, stupid) goal so all we are doing is ensuring they dont use protection when they do go at it. And if THAT can happen in our schools, then I fear that anything can happen so I am wary about things like ID gaining traction as an alternative scientific theory about how we came to be here. The more it is accepted as real science the closer we get to it being mandated as the official American theory that must be taught in schools. Of course, if Obama wins in November (and even Rupert Murdoch thinks he will) then the concern is moot for at least four years.

[Loismustdie 0]

I think the more reasonable atheists on this forum dont care if it is taught at school. Just teach it during religious studies not science because it is not science.And I know you were exaggerating but I think 95% seems high.Also, I think you have hit a huge hot button with your comment that parents raise kids not schools......frankly, that is how it should be but it is not always that way. Why else would schools teach sex education? Parents have gotten incredibly lazy and try and push their duties off on schools all the time. Lack of parental involvement is just as responsible for the dumbassery of our children as the failing public school system is.And on a personal level, I fear that ID will become the mandated theory that has to be taught if a school wants to receive Federal funding for their science programs. It sounds silly perhaps but that is EXACTLY how sex education works right now....you teach abstinence or you get no money. The only upside is ID is not science but it certainly is not dangerous....abstinence education is very dangerous (in that they out and out lie about the success rate of condoms....if they even mention prophylactics). Pretty much every study has concluded that abstinence education increases teen STD rates (as well as the likelihood of a teenage girl giving head or taking it in the buttsky!!!) because getting teenagers to stop ****ing is an impossible (hence, stupid) goal so all we are doing is ensuring they dont use protection when they do go at it. And if THAT can happen in our schools, then I fear that anything can happen so I am wary about things like ID gaining traction as an alternative scientific theory about how we came to be here. The more it is accepted as real science the closer we get to it being mandated as the official American theory that must be taught in schools. Of course, if Obama wins in November (and even Rupert Murdoch thinks he will) then the concern is moot for at least four years.

You proved my point when you said "I fear." That is literally all this is about, fear. You then proceeded to say it at least 2 or 3 more times, and it's not a wording issue, it IS the issue. It's all about fear and control.

[KramitDaToad 0]

Sure. ID is being taught in roughly 95% of US households. If it's taught in schools, whats the difference? Nothing. THAT is where the paranoia comes in. That you think that taking it out of schools makes a difference. It doesn't. You actually think that it being taught in schools would somehow "control" what a child learns. I can live with that- why does your side get all the control? Why not just let the ideas flow and let the kids think for themselves? What are you so afraid of? It's paranoia because I don't know one, and I mean this, not one christian who cares whether or not God is taught in schools. Why? Because it doesn't matter,schools don't raise children, at least not ours, what is there to be afraid of? For us, it's a non-issue. There is nothing to fear. For you, not so much, you must control, it's the only way you "win" and even then you don't win anything. Kids just learn the truth elsewhere. Big whoop.

What bit don't you get? Nobody cares if it's taught or not. There is a place for it to be taught. The science classroom of a public school is not it. Can you understand that one simple point? You yourself just used ID, Christianity and God all as interchangeable.However those that want ID taught in science classes are claiming that ID is not Christianity, it's not even religious. It's science. Your post just showed that you disagree with the proponents of ID. Your post shows you know they are lying. It's when people start claiming that ID is not a religious concept in order to get around the constitution that others quite rightly object.

[Loismustdie 0]

What bit don't you get? Nobody cares if it's taught or not. There is a place for it to be taught. The science classroom of a public school is not it. Can you understand that one simple point? You yourself just used ID, Christianity and God all as interchangeable.However those that want ID taught in science classes are claiming that ID is not Christianity, it's not even religious. It's science. Your post just showed that you disagree with the proponents of ID. Your post shows you know they are lying. It's when people start claiming that ID is not a religious concept in order to get around the constitution that others quite rightly object.

Oh, so you are looking out for the purity of SCIENCE. Forgive me when I say you are full of shit. Seriously, ****ing full of it to the hilt.

[KramitDaToad 0]

Oh, so you are looking out for the purity of SCIENCE. Forgive me when I say you are full of shit. Seriously, ****ing full of it to the hilt.

Nope. You missed completely.The constitution says that religion cannot be taught in public schools, so if IDer's wanted to say that ID was a sport and have it added to a gym class the objection would be the same.Despite having plenty of places to teach religion they thought it would be good to sneak in the back door of schools. It's fairly obvious why they wanted it along side evolution but that's irrelevant. As I said it's as equally unlawful to teach it in a sports class. The ID'ers decided therefore that to get into schools they would lie and pretend ID had nothing to do with religion.Yet you're posting in this thread stating that ID is a religion. So you actually disagree with Ben Stein et al. Yet for some reason you decide to keep making ridiculous posts to the contrary.

[crowTrobot 2]

Sure. ID is being taught in roughly 95% of US households.

yeah slight exaggeration there. depending on how you interpret polls somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of the USA believes in evolution, and beyond that there's a ton of parents that either don't know or don't care about the debate and are content just let the schools teach.

[Loismustdie 0]

Nope. You missed completely.The constitution says that religion cannot be taught in public schools, so if IDer's wanted to say that ID was a sport and have it added to a gym class the objection would be the same.Despite having plenty of places to teach religion they thought it would be good to sneak in the back door of schools. It's fairly obvious why they wanted it along side evolution but that's irrelevant. As I said it's as equally unlawful to teach it in a sports class. The ID'ers decided therefore that to get into schools they would lie and pretend ID had nothing to do with religion.Yet you're posting in this thread stating that ID is a religion. So you actually disagree with Ben Stein et al. Yet for some reason you decide to keep making ridiculous posts to the contrary.

I haven't even seen the movie!! My point is that I find it quite unbelievable given all the shit you guys talk in here about religion and is dangers that you are just concerned with science being tainted. You are, and have been for as long as I have known you, at war with religion and God. Period, there is no getting around this, anything to do with religion and God deserves nothing but ridicule. So, like I said, if you canb follow this logic, I think you are full of shit.

[Loismustdie 0]

yeah slight exaggeration there. depending on how you interpret polls somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of the USA believes in evolution, and beyond that there's a ton of parents that either don't know or don't care about the debate and are content just let the schools teach.

Hey genius, you can believe in evolution and God as the designer. Duh.

[timwakefield 68]

yeah slight exaggeration there. depending on how you interpret polls somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of the USA believes in evolution, and beyond that there's a ton of parents that either don't know or don't care about the debate and are content just let the schools teach.

Probably about the same amount of Americans that can identify Mexico on a world map. God what a stupid country we have..

[Loismustdie 0]

Probably about the same amount of Americans that can identify Mexico on a world map. God what a stupid country we have..

It's a basic requirement for commerce that some must be less intelligent than others. Be thankful.

[CaneBrain 95]

You proved my point when you said "I fear." That is literally all this is about, fear. You then proceeded to say it at least 2 or 3 more times, and it's not a wording issue, it IS the issue. It's all about fear and control.

I guess. I fear it because it stinks. Lots of people fear things that stink. There is no real debate that abstinence education is dangerous. It's a slippery slope. I am not trying to control anything I am trying to make sure people have options and that religious beliefs are not forced upon them. I really think you are way off on this one.

[crowTrobot 2]

Hey genius, you can believe in evolution and God as the designer. Duh.

expelled and this thread are about ID being taught as science, on an equal footing with and possible viable replacement for evolution as a scientific explanation for speciation. nobody's talking about christians who believe in evolution. duh yourself.

[Loismustdie 0]

I guess. I fear it because it stinks. Lots of people fear things that stink. There is no real debate that abstinence education is dangerous. It's a slippery slope. I am not trying to control anything I am trying to make sure people have options and that religious beliefs are not forced upon them. I really think you are way off on this one.

Maybe I should restate- I agree that it shouldn't be in Science, I don't agree that it shouldn't be in schools, my argument is that with guys like Toad and Crow there protests that this is all about the purity of science is straight up horseshit. Do you read what these guys say? That are all about the eradication of God, period, if they had there way and they have as much as said so they would do away with religion. BTW, they very definition of controlling is the taking away of options, which is what you desire in this case. It is absolutely hilarious how you guys actually think that ANYTHING taught in a school can be "forced". It's like you haven't even been there- 70 percent of it goes in one ear and out the other. This is ALL about fear, the big bad God gonna wiggle his way into young minds and poison them FOREVER. NYEAAAAHHH!! How are we going to exist if people continue to believe God? Whatever will we do? Are you guys high? It's like you are not aware that I KNOW what you guys are all about, your views on god and religion are malicious and ruthless at best. I don't mean you, Cain, there is just history here that tells me these guys are absolutely full of shit and like you, scared of even the THOUGHT of something they DON'T EVEN BELIEVE EXISTS. How sick is that? They are, ostensibly, afraid of the bogeymen even though they belieev he doesn't exist. Makes you wonder how sure they are, doesn't it?

[Loismustdie 0]

expelled and this thread are about ID being taught as science, on an equal footing with and possible viable replacement for evolution as a scientific explanation for speciation. nobody's talking about christians who believe in evolution. duh yourself.

The point is my numbers hold true. It's way the **** up there, being that you can believe in evolution and God, genius. You will do your best to try and debunk that, though, because with you it's never about one issue, the war against God is always in the background. You must think I am dumb as a box of rocks.