Opinion On This Cash Game Play Live

[cvllama 0]

Hi Everybody,I have a scenario that was played out live last night at a 1/2 nl hold em game.I was in the big blind with about 300$ in chips....The guy who was UTG, was a deep pocket aggressive player who would call 100's of dollars on draw. He raises to 15$ before the flop, 5 people call, inluding myself. I had pocket 5's. (club and heart). The flop comes K diamond, 5 spade, Q diamond. I raise to 25$, UTG raises to 50$, and one more guy who was in fourth position raises to 100. I call the 100 thinking i'm priced in, and then the UTG pushes all in, as does the fourth position player. They both have me covered, (they both have around 500$ stacks). I decide to call.Anyways, it's a 3 way all in. I read the flush draw from the guy in fourth position, and the UTG ended up being on a straight draw. 9 of diamonds comes on the turn. 9 of clubs come on the river to give me 5's over 9's to win the hand.I was called a donkey for the rest of the night, but I didn't agree with that. I pushed all in with the best hand, and from hours of previous play I didn't put them on pockets qs or j's because of the action pre flop. I figured it was just bad luck if I did lose to the better hand.Do you think this was a bad call?

[Metternich 0]

110% correct call, those guys are dumb if they say any different.

[wsop2008 0]

110% correct call, those guys are dumb if they say any different.

i agree. i do have a question where i was in a similiar situation. $2/5 NL live. $500 max buy in had about $900 in front. I get dueces in UTG+1 i limped and called a $25 raise which UTG also called. Flop was K28 all diamonds...first guy checks, I check (intentionally check rasing) and the guy fires out $80 into a $120ish pot....first to act thinks for a second and goes all in for $240 total. I decided that because I had seen a hand before where there was a similiar board and the guy who just check raised all in lost with top pair no kicker on an all spades board that I had the best hand. I pause for a while and go all in for approximately another $780 to the guy who bet the original $80 and he instacalls with A 10 with the ace of diamonds...of course we all know what happened but can i really call the $240 and lay it down on the turn....if I call the $240 there is still the chance the guy behind me will reshove anyways right?

[Poker Addict 0]

So you were a donkey for putting all of your chips in with the best hand? You could put ranges to their hands and poker stove it - I recommend you do this, very important. But if you have their exact cards you could figure out exactly what your odds were if you had the ability to see their cards ahead of time.EDIT: I am doing this now.Giving the Ad7d to the flush draw guy - being generous but also taking one of the outs of the straight guy assuming:Giving JcTs to straight draw guy - leaving more of the diamonds that can hit and assuming that this guy called an open ender and not a gut shot.So giving one guy the nut flush draw and one guy the nut straight draw (but no one the royal flush draw) your odds of winning are 58% equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 58.472% 58.47% 00.00% 528 0.00 { 5c5h }Hand 1: 25.914% 25.91% 00.00% 234 0.00 { Ad7d }Hand 2: 15.615% 15.61% 00.00% 141 0.00 { JcTs }Of course unless you have amazing reads you could not take better trips out of their ranges, or two pair or all kinds of crap.EDIT: (oh and Copper, as always fix my math if it's wrong obv)

[cvllama 0]

So you were a donkey for putting all of your chips in with the best hand? You could put ranges to their hands and poker stove it - I recommend you do this, very important. But if you have their exact cards you could figure out exactly what your odds were if you had the ability to see their cards ahead of time.EDIT: I am doing this now.Giving the Ad7d to the flush draw guy - being generous but also taking one of the outs of the straight guy assuming:Giving JcTs to straight draw guy - leaving more of the diamonds that can hit and assuming that this guy called an open ender and not a gut shot.So giving one guy the nut flush draw and one guy the nut straight draw (but no one the royal flush draw) your odds of winning are 58% equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 58.472% 58.47% 00.00% 528 0.00 { 5c5h }Hand 1: 25.914% 25.91% 00.00% 234 0.00 { Ad7d }Hand 2: 15.615% 15.61% 00.00% 141 0.00 { JcTs }Of course unless you have amazing reads you could not take better trips out of their ranges, or two pair or all kinds of crap.EDIT: (oh and Copper, as always fix my math if it's wrong obv)

THANK YOU! I appreciate the odds. And you nailed both hands almost correctly. He did have the nut flush draw, and the other guy did have J10 off suit.

[Poker Addict 0]

WEEEEEEEEEEEE... pretty easy with your description. But get poker stove FTMFW! Play around with hand ranges. hella-important.

[Metternich 0]

i agree. i do have a question where i was in a similiar situation. $2/5 NL live. $500 max buy in had about $900 in front. I get dueces in UTG+1 i limped and called a $25 raise which UTG also called. Flop was K28 all diamonds...first guy checks, I check (intentionally check rasing) and the guy fires out $80 into a $120ish pot....first to act thinks for a second and goes all in for $240 total. I decided at because I had seen a hand before where there was a similiar board and the guy who just check raised all in lost with top pair on an all spades board that I had the best hand. I pause for a while and go all in for approximately another $780 to the guy who bet the original $80 and he instacalls with A 10 with the ace of diamonds...of course we all know what happened but can i really call the $240 and lay it down on the turn....if I call the $240 there is still the chance the guy behind me will reshove anyways right?

Ok, you should probably have made a new thread for this question and put it in a format that's easier to read (like your first post).Assuming this is 9-handed then your preflop play is a huge leak. Just fold deuces unless you're really deepstacked or something, if you have to play them then limp. Once it gets raised then fold, calling is pretty leaky.Monotone boards are a ton of fun, especially if you're a good/wealthy enough player to put your whole stack in with only a small edge. I'm not checking that flop unless I'm totally sure someone will bet. You almost always have the best hand right now (with a strong redraw) and a diamond falling will kill your action no matter what happens. So I lead the flop.Definitely go allin on the flop, if a non-flush turn card comes you lose ability to get value out of worse hands. Don't be results oriented about your loss.

[Poker Addict 0]

Okay, this is a much different question then the other hand.In the first hand you should have folded preflop. You are drawing to a 2 outter. That is the same problem with this one.In both cases you hit.You are ahead a lot of the time in the second hand on the flop. But this is also a much scarier flop then the other one. A flush could already be there with greater frequency then another set exists like the first hand. Don't look for a check raise because you zero fold equity with your stack to do that. You want to shove and get them out. Otherwise to check raise they will be priced in to go.Small PP's particular out of position are not hands that you should be playing. They will cost you way more then they make you.

[cvllama 0]

Ok, you should probably have made a new thread for this question and put it in a format that's easier to read (like your first post).Assuming this is 9-handed then your preflop play is a huge leak. Just fold deuces unless you're really deepstacked or something, if you have to play them then limp. Once it gets raised then fold, calling is pretty leaky.Monotone boards are a ton of fun, especially if you're a good/wealthy enough player to put your whole stack in with only a small edge. I'm not checking that flop unless I'm totally sure someone will bet. You almost always have the best hand right now (with a strong redraw) and a diamond falling will kill your action no matter what happens. So I lead the flop.Definitely go allin on the flop, if a non-flush turn card comes you lose ability to get value out of worse hands. Don't be results oriented about your loss.

Hey Metter, ya this wasn't my question if you were referring to the format in my initial first post.

[kodkid 0]

So calling with the best hand (and not being on a draw) is being a donkey? May i forever be a donkey in everyhand.I would have said "hee haw" all night. and then said... who told you to go all-in on a draw?

[Flushgarden 0]

The flop comes K diamond, 5 spade, Q diamond. I raise to 25$, UTG raises to 50$, and one more guy who was in fourth position raises to 100. I call the 100 thinking i'm priced in

Shove at this moment. Just calling is pretty bad imo. You have no reason to believe you dont have the best hand here, and on such a drawheavy board you cant afford to let people see cards at the price that they set for themselves.Where was this game?

[cvllama 0]

Shove at this moment. Just calling is pretty bad imo. You have no reason to believe you dont have the best hand here, and on such a drawheavy board you cant afford to let people see cards at the price that they set for themselves.Where was this game?

The game was at a casino up here in Edmonton, Alberta.

[Frez 0]

The game was at a casino up here in Edmonton, Alberta.

Greetings and salutations fellow Albertan.nh sir

[cvllama 0]

Greetings and salutations fellow Albertan.nh sir

Hey there Mr. Sherwood Park. Where do you play live?It's Miss, by the way, hahah.

[Frez 0]

Hey there Mr. Sherwood Park. Where do you play live?It's Miss, by the way, hahah.

Oops, sorry ma'am.I go to all the casinos now and then. I think River Cree is the best, but it's the furthest. I'm on an acreage, so I play online way more than live.I'm also with a group of guys who run a local home game series: www.poker-edmonton.com

[Farmboyz 0]

I wouldn't call you a donkey, at all. But, I do agree with FlushGarden, you didn't bet this hand well enough. Under-betting your first flop bet is fine, because UTG is agressive is likely to raise. But, once it's three-bet, all you do is consider calling? You've got to protect your hand, this flop stinks of draws. And, with so many other people in, you can count on, at least, one being there. So, once it's upped to $100, you're entire stack should be in the middle.I say let them call you a donkey all night long. If they want to put money in, on the come, versus the nuts, then you'll making money all night long. I'm going to Edmonton!

[dspadez 0]

to wsop2008 and metternich?all in on the flop??? i think is alittle unnecessary at this point. youve got almost 200bb. thats deep enough. on the flop youve got what? 25 invested. and the bet is 240. okay so let me get this straightFlop kd 2d 8dutg checks,utg+1(you) checkmp? bets 80utg raises all in 240the pot right now is at 440 and its 240 for you to call with 780 behind. (correct?)IMO, best move is to call the 240, see what mp does and re eval on the turn.theres no need for you to raise all in here, youre only getting called if youre beat, (idk how deep mp was so....) obviously mp is a bad player, but what are you hoping to achieve by going all in? if you call the pot stands about 680 and its 240 to mp, thats what? 2.8:1 on his money so the flush draw isnt getting the right price and hes making a mistake if he calls. k, i realize i did some math wrong, its goin to be 160 to call and theres about 680, which would be the right math..... either way, i think the prudent thing to do is to just call and re eval on turnalso, if you just call the 240, that leaves you with 540 on the turn. assuming nut flush draw just calls the 240 on the flop, and no diamond comes on the turn the pots set up for you to go all in. if a diamond does come, you can check/fold or whatever. that still leaves you up 40 bucks instead of down 500. the biggest problem i have is that youre playing deepstacked and you risk it all on a dangerous flop. id expect your AI to only get called by a flush or an overset.

[Snamuh 0]

to wsop2008 and metternich?all in on the flop??? i think is alittle unnecessary at this point. youve got almost 200bb. thats deep enough. on the flop youve got what? 25 invested. and the bet is 240. okay so let me get this straightFlop kd 2d 8dutg checks,utg+1(you) checkmp? bets 80utg raises all in 240the pot right now is at 440 and its 240 for you to call with 780 behind. (correct?)IMO, best move is to call the 240, see what mp does and re eval on the turn.theres no need for you to raise all in here, youre only getting called if youre beat, (idk how deep mp was so....) obviously mp is a bad player, but what are you hoping to achieve by going all in? if you call the pot stands about 680 and its 240 to mp, thats what? 2.8:1 on his money so the flush draw isnt getting the right price and hes making a mistake if he calls. k, i realize i did some math wrong, its goin to be 160 to call and theres about 680, which would be the right math..... either way, i think the prudent thing to do is to just call and re eval on turnalso, if you just call the 240, that leaves you with 540 on the turn. assuming nut flush draw just calls the 240 on the flop, and no diamond comes on the turn the pots set up for you to go all in. if a diamond does come, you can check/fold or whatever. that still leaves you up 40 bucks instead of down 500. the biggest problem i have is that youre playing deepstacked and you risk it all on a dangerous flop. id expect your AI to only get called by a flush or an overset.

Shoving is better if they'll stack off with the naked Ad and other retarded draws. Why wait for a safe card if the safe card won't stack them?

[dspadez 0]

there are no other retarded draws and i wouldnt expect someone to make a horrendous call such as this person did with just the ace of diamonds. i think more often the not, the only way hes getting called if he pushes is if someone already has the flush. in which case you just donked your entire stack.the stacks are deep here and your hand is vulnerable.there was like 440 in the pot and he went all in for 780? something like that. and didnt really know where he was, i think it would have been better to just call and re evaluate on the turn. i mean maybe im wrong here and if so, others please comment!!!! im just trying to think of how tom dwan, or antonius would play it

[Snamuh 0]

there are no other retarded draws and i wouldnt expect someone to make a horrendous call such as this person did with just the ace of diamonds. i think more often the not, the only way hes getting called if he pushes is if someone already has the flush. in which case you just donked your entire stack.the stacks are deep here and your hand is vulnerable.there was like 440 in the pot and he went all in for 780? something like that. and didnt really know where he was, i think it would have been better to just call and re evaluate on the turn. i mean maybe im wrong here and if so, others please comment!!!! im just trying to think of how tom dwan, or antonius would play it

They would get the money in early because they know that the other would be capable of having something like KxQd or a naked Ad so they'd get the money in on the flop when the draw is likely to stack off (because they probably won't stack off a 1 card flush draw on the turn).And you assume that people know they'd be making a retarded call. To live donks, KxXd or AdXx is the nuts on that board. Getting it in is super standard.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Hi Everybody,I have a scenario that was played out live last night at a 1/2 nl hold em game.I was in the big blind with about 300$ in chips....The guy who was UTG, was a deep pocket aggressive player who would call 100's of dollars on draw. He raises to 15$ before the flop, 5 people call, inluding myself. I had pocket 5's. (club and heart). The flop comes K diamond, 5 spade, Q diamond. I raise to 25$, UTG raises to 50$, and one more guy who was in fourth position raises to 100. I call the 100 thinking i'm priced in, and then the UTG pushes all in, as does the fourth position player. They both have me covered, (they both have around 500$ stacks). I decide to call.Anyways, it's a 3 way all in. I read the flush draw from the guy in fourth position, and the UTG ended up being on a straight draw. 9 of diamonds comes on the turn. 9 of clubs come on the river to give me 5's over 9's to win the hand.I was called a donkey for the rest of the night, but I didn't agree with that. I pushed all in with the best hand, and from hours of previous play I didn't put them on pockets qs or j's because of the action pre flop. I figured it was just bad luck if I did lose to the better hand.Do you think this was a bad call?

Listening to other players is going to make you a bad player.