73o, Tried To Re-steal And Hit Bottom 2 On A Scary Board

[Acid_Knight 2]

I didnt explain well why you do have implied odds with even 40bb stacks in a HU tourney, and it has less to do with the current depths of the stacks themselves than the differences between tourney vs cash.In HU tourney play hands that would never call the river if it were BvB in a multiplayer tourney call when its HU. Thats why so many draws are played HU that wouldnt be played BvB...they get paid off so much more often that they do have implied odds. The mindset in HU tourney play is to play TPTK (and sometimes a lot less) like it is the nuts, because you dont have time to pass on them and wait for another opportunity as the blinds go up. That lowers the stack depth needed to achieve implied odds.In HU tourney play the deciding hand (not the last hand) is almost always a pre-flop cooler (KK v AA) or a set/other long shot drawing hand vs TPGK or even 2d pairTK that cant lay down vs the push and wait for a better spot.BvB you dont have the blind pressure nearly as much as HU because they only come around 1/9 of the time instead of 1/2 the time, so you dont have the same effect on implied odds ... you can wait for a better spot. (along with the SB being OOP the rest of the hand BvB, so fewer hands should be played).

You don't really need to explain how to play HU to me since that's all I play. I know 2nd pair is the nuts.I'm still trying to grasp why you're alleging that calling with 73o is "ok" in a HU tourney where the stacks are shallow and you will have a hard time moving your opponent off of any hand he flops, be it a pair or a draw of some kind. 73o has such horrible equity against every range and if you're ever putting a lot of $$ in post flop with 1 pair, you're likely crushed.I know HU cash is different because I can reload and wait half a dozen hands if I don't like my cards and wait for a better spot. With 65BBs here, you're under no pressure. I'm not saying wait for aces, but I am definitely saying that 73o is far too weak to defend when you're not under immmediate pressure from the blinds.I mean, you're literally saying that you should to defend 1 of the dozen or so weakest holdem hands, preflop & OOP, because otherwise you're going to get run over. I think that's just ridiculous.

[copernicus 0]

You don't really need to explain how to play HU to me since that's all I play. I know 2nd pair is the nuts.I'm still trying to grasp why you're alleging that calling with 73o is "ok" in a HU tourney where the stacks are shallow and you will have a hard time moving your opponent off of any hand he flops, be it a pair or a draw of some kind. 73o has such horrible equity against every range and if you're ever putting a lot of $$ in post flop with 1 pair, you're likely crushed.I know HU cash is different because I can reload and wait half a dozen hands if I don't like my cards and wait for a better spot. With 65BBs here, you're under no pressure. I'm not saying wait for aces, but I am definitely saying that 73o is far too weak to defend when you're not under immmediate pressure from the blinds.I mean, you're literally saying that you should to defend 1 of the dozen or so weakest holdem hands, preflop & OOP, because otherwise you're going to get run over. I think that's just ridiculous.

1. the stacks arent shallow for a tourney!2. I said about 20% of the time for deception, not as a regular practice3. Go Rangers 4-1!!!

[simo_8ball 0]

Just one quick way of thinking about this:If I'm raising on the button, I am more than happy for my opponent to call with 73o any time. At all.Cop, can you honestly say that you would prefer your opponents to fold 73o every time to your raises?

[copernicus 0]

Just one quick way of thinking about this:If I'm raising on the button, I am more than happy for my opponent to call with 73o any time. At all.Cop, can you honestly say that you would prefer your opponents to fold 73o every time to your raises?

Id prefer my opponents fold every time I raise no matter what I have or what they have.

[simo_8ball 0]

Id prefer my opponents fold every time I raise no matter what I have or what they have.

You know what I meant.

[copernicus 0]

You know what I meant.

Yes but what you meant is irrelevant because it isnt the real world. I want them to play 73o except when they stack me with it! Again, in a HU tourney 73o is only a 7:3 dog against a typical HU raisers range, and its going to win a lot more chips when it wins than it will lose when it loses. Fundamental theorem of poker ftw, imo.

[NoBBiR 0]

Yes but what you meant is irrelevant because it isnt the real world. I want them to play 73o except when they stack me with it! Again, in a HU tourney 73o is only a 7:3 dog against a typical HU raisers range, and its going to win a lot more chips when it wins than it will lose when it loses. Fundamental theorem of poker ftw, imo.

Explain to me when exactly you're going to win a big pot with this hand? Being a 7:3 dog here isn't the point. Implied odds are the likelihood of winning a sizable return on your investment on a future street, making up for making a bad immediate odds play. This means that we have to hope that the villain will put in more of his money on a later street when we have him crushed. This means that we have to flop a big hand and get him to put money in after we do this by betting (Implied odds mean absolutely nothing when we both flop nothing and we bet him off the hand representing that we indeed have something, and we don't win that all-important extra bet that way). Because of this, and the fact that we're out of position, makes CALLING preflop actually better than RAISING preflop, but imo, both plays suck. Calling preflop at least gives him the opportunity to cbet when we hit the flop well, so we win another bet by c/ring. Raising preflop means we're going to cbet when we hit anything decent (rarely and then pray for action), cbet when we miss (which sucks because we'll have no idea what we're doing if he just calls), cbet air and get raised and instamuck (which we lose an extra bet doing), or check/fold the flop when we miss.Being out of position in this hand is and still wanting to play it is like the plague. I can understand taking a flyer with a weak immediate odds hand when the likelihood of flopping anything is half decent, but what exactly are we hoping to flop and get paid with? We basically have to flop gin and hope he still catches a piece as well. A hand like 109o, or 98o may be worth a call here since we could also flop a draw, but we're hardly ever going to flop anything but garbage with this hand. I just have trouble understanding how taking a long-shot with a hand like this could be profitable over the long run. There is gambling and lolgamblinz', and this is the latter.

[XXEddie 0]

Glad to see there is some debate going on. I didn't mean to delay posting results I just havn't been on in a while.Hero checks, Villian bets 250, Hero shoves.Standard?

[Sheiky 0]

Well you're not folding and you're not calling.

[simo_8ball 0]

Well you're not folding and you're not calling.

lol

[XXEddie 0]

Well you're not folding and you're not calling.

soooo.....minraise?

[AndyZ28 0]

I don't understand the urge to re-steal with the blinds as low as they are. Maybe at 100/200+ but 10/20? I'd just let it go.

[XXEddie 0]

I don't understand the urge to re-steal with the blinds as low as they are. Maybe at 100/200+ but 10/20? I'd just let it go.

Restealing at this level would be impossible

[Sheiky 0]

soooo.....minraise?

Hell yes!Or on a serious note, shovelllllll.

[AndyZ28 0]

Restealing at this level would be impossible

Not totally impossible, it really depends on stack sizes and such. But, you're losing 20 here by him stealing on the button and in the process you almost gave yourself an aneurysm when you hit bottom two. I'd say next time just let him walk over your blind. You can find MUCH better spots to play back with than 73os. Although, I will commend you on trying it with 73os. I've done it myself and have been successful. I just never bother to re-steal at 10/20 unless I'm really short, but then I just jam it anyway.

[copernicus 0]

"restealing" is problematic both because you cut your odds (which, once again, are not that bad 73o vs top 30-40% hand) and because the chips you pick up with your FE are fairly meaningless at this point.

[Aces Rule 0]

"restealing" is problematic both because you cut your odds (which, once again, are not that bad 73o vs top 30-40% hand) and because the chips you pick up with your FE are fairly meaningless at this point.

Hard to believe this thread is getting so much attention. Does anyone even remember it was a HU tourney??

[XXEddie 0]

Not totally impossible, it really depends on stack sizes and such. But, you're losing 20 here by him stealing on the button and in the process you almost gave yourself an aneurysm when you hit bottom two. I'd say next time just let him walk over your blind. You can find MUCH better spots to play back with than 73os. Although, I will commend you on trying it with 73os. I've done it myself and have been successful. I just never bother to re-steal at 10/20 unless I'm really short, but then I just jam it anyway.

at 100/200 regardless of stack sizes, it would be a shovefest.

[copernicus 0]

Hard to believe this thread is getting so much attention. Does anyone even remember it was a HU tourney??

They better because its the only reason theres a debate!

[AndyZ28 0]

I missed that it was a HU tourney. Never mind me questioning your re-steal then. My bad!But this post has brought up good discussion.