Combo Draw Discussion

[IBFT 0]

I would like to discuss our thoughts on pushing combo draws.Now there are different types of combo draws, obviously. Pair and straight, pair and flush, oe + fd, gs + fd, etc...I believe the straight and flush draws are better than the first two (obviously) and that if I have the pair + fd or pair + sd, i'd rather have bottom or middle pair, rather than top pair - because I'd think both of my cards have a better chance at being live for 2pr or trips, where as I could be dominated with tp.Now, the reason I ask is this hand (BBFIDTS, but thats not why Im posting):Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (7 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)UTG ($59.60)Hero ($69.20)MP2 ($46.75)CO ($48.25)Button ($50)SB ($52.40)BB ($34.65)Preflop: Hero is MP1 with , . SB posts a blind of $0.50. BB raises to $1.5, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.50, 4 folds.Flop: ($3.50) , , (2 players)BB bets $3, Hero raises to $9.5, BB raises to $36.15 (All-In), Hero calls $23.65.Turn: ($69.80) (2 players, 1 all-in)River: ($69.80) (2 players, 1 all-in)Final Pot: $72.80Results in white below: BB has Jd Kd (flush, king high). Hero has 8c 8h (three of a kind, eights). Outcome: BB wins $69.80. I won't get into the fact that with my stats (around 14/11/3 for this table during the session) that I probably had a stronger than average hand.On this board, I don't believe the combo draw is really live.Another example, and I can't find the HH, was one that happened to me 2 days ago.A nit raised it from HJ, I called OTB with Ac4c. I would normally fold, but we were both about 200bbs deep, and I felt that his range was such (tight) that if I hit the right flop, I could win a real big pot.The flop was As Jc Tc. I had 'a big flop' for my hand, but I wasnt really in love with it. At best (for me) he had a KK and an inside straight draw, at worse, he had a set. His numbers were such that I don't think he was opening with KQ, but even if he were, well, my 2pr outs are still dead.So on this board, with this opponent, I didn't think that this was the time to play a combo draw 'fast'. So full circle - I think my opponent made a mistake in the first hand posted. Yes, he had 'a combo draw', but in reality, given the board texture, isn't it fairly safe to assume, if I'm villain, that I'm basically drawing to nine outs? At best, for him, I suppose, would be T8 or i guess I could have a hand like AdQd, where he's actually ahead. But any jack could fill me (if i have JT), any diamond might give me the nuts. I could have some weird straight. Is my thinking logical in these situations? Don't we really have to take texture into account when playing these hands? And, yes, I know we play our big draws fast. But I've realy come to think of TP + FD as not that big of a hand when I'm getting a lot of heat in a raised pot. Thoughts, opinions, reasons I'm wrong all welcomed.

[dingas 0]

I think your opponent's play in the first hand is pretty standard. I assume you would open raise TT or JJ preflop, so the only hands he is really afraid of are 88 and Q9s. Against everything else he is either ahead or getting odds to put it all in on this flop. I don't really see any other way for him to play this oop. You might be able to play it differently in position, but out of position getting it all in seems to be right.As for the second hand, I'm not sure I like your call preflop. The problem is that A4 doesn't play very well against a tight opener's range. If you make a flush it's not a fact that he's going to pay you off with an over pair, and he's very unlikely to make a smaller flush that he will pay you off with (which is how Axs hands make a lot of their profit). But I like your line of not playing it fast on the flop for the reasons you stated. I think it comes down to being in position. In the first hand, villain had a combo draw out of position, which limited his options. In position, you have the option of calling and reevaluating, which is a good idea in this spot, since the flop is likely to have hit your opponent.

[IBFT 0]

I think your opponent's play in the first hand is pretty standard. I assume you would open raise TT or JJ preflop, so the only hands he is really afraid of are 88 and Q9s. Against everything else he is either ahead or getting odds to put it all in on this flop. I don't really see any other way for him to play this oop. You might be able to play it differently in position, but out of position getting it all in seems to be right.

I think you're misreading the HH fromt he way you discribe it.It was a raised pot, villain opened it from UTG.

[tskillz187 0]

First hand is standard with KJdd. He gets to bet and 3-bet in the hand, so he could have some added FE. You could have AJ, QQ, QJ, all sorts of pair + straight hands, etc. I think it's possible to overplay combo draws but not in the first hand shown here.

[IBFT 0]

First hand is standard with KJdd. He gets to bet and 3-bet in the hand, so he could have some added FE. You could have AJ, QQ, QJ, all sorts of pair + straight hands, etc. I think it's possible to overplay combo draws but not in the first hand shown here.

I shouldnt have posted the first hand, I dont think. But since its there and we're using that as the benchmark, we have to make my range pretty wide (to include basically any 9 possible) to make this even a coinflip situation.If we have top + fd, what range are we putting our opponents to make this a +EV play? If I didn't have bottom set in that hand, but instead had AJ, AJ is still in the lead, slightly. If I have AJ with the Ad, its now about 60-40. Sure, you have more FE against top top. But this is what I'm getting at, and why I mentioned the fact that if I have a pair + draw combo, I'd rather have bottom or middle, than top.I think QJ is a bit ambitious to include in the range, no? The range of "AJ, QQ, QJ, and all sorts of pair + straight hands" seems like you think, in a raised pot, that villains range is almost completely comprised of hands that top pair king kicker is already ahead of?

[tskillz187 0]

I shouldnt have posted the first hand, I dont think. But since its there and we're using that as the benchmark, we have to make my range pretty wide (to include basically any 9 possible) to make this even a coinflip situation.If we have top + fd, what range are we putting our opponents to make this a +EV play? If I didn't have bottom set in that hand, but instead had AJ, AJ is still in the lead, slightly. If I have AJ with the Ad, its now about 60-40. Sure, you have more FE against top top. But this is what I'm getting at, and why I mentioned the fact that if I have a pair + draw combo, I'd rather have bottom or middle, than top.I think QJ is a bit ambitious to include in the range, no? The range of "AJ, QQ, QJ, and all sorts of pair + straight hands" seems like you think, in a raised pot, that villains range is almost completely comprised of hands that top pair king kicker is already ahead of?

You would probably fold AJ to the 3bet shove, or at least you would fold it some of the time depending on villain. If you had pair + straight draws we have you crushed. When you have sets we are behind by quite a bit, but really never a huge dog. When I'm never gonna be a huge dog and I'm going to have fold equity, I'm going to try and take it. But yeah, it'd be better to not have top pair in these situations. I would fold KJ no draw on that board because I'm either slightly ahead or way behind. But given the draw, I'm either slightly ahead with fold equity, slightly behind with fold equity, or behind by a decent amount.

[IBFT 0]

You would probably fold AJ to the 3bet shove, or at least you would fold it some of the time depending on villain. If you had pair + straight draws we have you crushed. When you have sets we are behind by quite a bit, but really never a huge dog. When I'm never gonna be a huge dog and I'm going to have fold equity, I'm going to try and take it. But yeah, it'd be better to not have top pair in these situations. I would fold KJ no draw on that board because I'm either slightly ahead or way behind. But given the draw, I'm either slightly ahead with fold equity, slightly behind with fold equity, or behind by a decent amount.

Yea, for me the discussion isn't how he played this or anything. And I think prior to the last week, I would have played it the same. That seems to be the accepted standard in the online community (not that that matters much). I even saw it happen on high stakes poker with Brunson vs Sheiky. In that hand, it was the same thing. Flop was AKx, 2 clubs, Sean had Ac9c, Brunson had AK. I just think in these top + fd situations... We've all had these a lot, and the inclincation is always to play them super fast, I think. But how many times have we gotten it all in with top + fd and its been more than a 9 to 12 outter? I mean obv we're all going to have situations we're someone is stacking off with QJ, etc... Lets assume that both players are atleast average at teh pokers... If im villain in the first hand, well, i fold KJ utg, but ignoring that... Well, I obviously don't fold to the flop raise. I dont know, calling oop sucks, too. But basically, facing heat from a competent villain, the top + fd is usually a 9 outter. I dont know, im confuddled.

[tskillz187 0]

Meh, I could look through my database for some combo draws where I think it's wrong for extra heat. Given the hand you posted if I'm BB and villain is a TAG, I'm shoving. Even if he's competent and good. What other options do I have? I think a TAG could have AQ, AK, QQ-AA, set, 99, 2pr, 89, 109, J9. I'm not folding and my draw loses a lot of its equity on the turn, not to mention scare cards that won't get me paid, or that make me fold best hand.

[IBFT 0]

Meh, I could look through my database for some combo draws where I think it's wrong for extra heat. Given the hand you posted if I'm BB and villain is a TAG, I'm shoving. Even if he's competent and good. What other options do I have? I think a TAG could have AQ, AK, QQ-AA, set, 99, 2pr, 89, 109, J9. I'm not folding and my draw loses a lot of its equity on the turn, not to mention scare cards that won't get me paid, or that make me fold best hand.

I think your range is too wide for a tag. Calling with J9, J8, T8 and maybe T9/78/89 (though those ones are more readily acceptable especially if sooted) in MP from an UTG range seems more loose than a normal TAG to me. But your point is well taken, anyhow. The range has to be pretty tight for this to stray far from a flip. I definitely think the mistake is playing these combo hands oop, where you basically have to committ yourself on the flop because you hit the 'flop you were looking for' and you don't want to just call and reeval oop. FWIW I dont think the combo draw player has much FE in this situation.The converter is wrong, btw. I didn't open limp with 88. Villain was UTG and raised it, I called in MP. I would have opened it. I guess thats where some confusion is coming in. Anyhow, back to my point. Given the fact that he's only 70BBs deep, I dont think he has much FE. The pot was ~40 after his push, 23 to call. AJ might even call though, though he played it like an overpair. As far as the range, I'm not calling an UTG raise with AJ, but I play FR, that might be nitty by 6max standards. (if im sooted and otb, thats different, maybe. depends on villain)

[CobaltBlue 662]

The reason that villain's shoving the flop is this...When you raise the flop, your range is probably TT,88,AQs-AJs,KJs+,QJs,J9s+,T9s,98s,AJo. He has 60% equity against that range. Yeah, when you call his shove, his equity is likely to have dropped to something like 40%, but there's enough money in the pot and enough FE equity to compensate for that.

[Sheiky 0]

Yea, for me the discussion isn't how he played this or anything. And I think prior to the last week, I would have played it the same. That seems to be the accepted standard in the online community (not that that matters much). I even saw it happen on high stakes poker with Brunson vs Sheiky. In that hand, it was the same thing. Flop was AKx, 2 clubs, Sean had Ac9c, Brunson had AK. I just think in these top + fd situations... We've all had these a lot, and the inclincation is always to play them super fast, I think. But how many times have we gotten it all in with top + fd and its been more than a 9 to 12 outter? I mean obv we're all going to have situations we're someone is stacking off with QJ, etc... Lets assume that both players are atleast average at teh pokers... If im villain in the first hand, well, i fold KJ utg, but ignoring that... Well, I obviously don't fold to the flop raise. I dont know, calling oop sucks, too. But basically, facing heat from a competent villain, the top + fd is usually a 9 outter. I dont know, im confuddled.

This is one of the big reasons why, it might just be a mental thing but getting it all in on the flop feels a hell of a lot better than calling and waiting for a diamond.I agree that a lot of the time you will be reduced to not many outs and i said before that people overrate them a bit, but i think in a lot of spots closing your eyes and jamming is simply the only option as calling seems kind of bad. There's a thread that Simo_8ball posted a while ago that showed that getting it in on the flop with a big draw is better than seeing a turn card with money behind.In a metagame sense as well it allows you to play your big made hands fast as well because people know how aggro you can be with a draw, though this has somewhat come full circle nowadays i feel as when you jam on a JT8 two suit board or something it's often really obvious what you have.

[Acid_Knight 2]

1. Almost any combo draw you flop with 100BBs or less (pair/flush draw, flush draw/straight draw, flush draw/gutter, pair/oesd) it's usually correct to just shove your stack in on the flop.2. As everyone said, that KJ hand was fine. He bets and you raise. There's NO REASON to think that he doesn't have a full 14 outs at this point. He also has a few backdoor straight draws.3. That A4cc on AJTcc is not a great combo draw. You have a solid handle on the villain's range and you realize that if you're gonna get action, you're drawing to a naked flush.There are very few times when combo draws should be played at anything less than full throttle. Usually those times come around when you're suspicious that some of your outs are dead and/or you're involved in a multiway pot. I don't think you're making much of a mistake ever if you're getting your stack in with 12+ outs to improve your hand to one that should win the pot for you.Also, in the hand in the OP where the player opens (you said UTG) with KJ, there's no other way for him to play that hand. TP 2nd Kicker and a flush draw is an insta-all in.

[mtdesmoines 3]

1. Almost any combo draw you flop with 100BBs or less (pair/flush draw, flush draw/straight draw, flush draw/gutter, pair/oesd) it's usually correct to just shove your stack in on the flop.2. As everyone said, that KJ hand was fine. He bets and you raise. There's NO REASON to think that he doesn't have a full 14 outs at this point. He also has a few backdoor straight draws.3. That A4cc on AJTcc is not a great combo draw. You have a solid handle on the villain's range and you realize that if you're gonna get action, you're drawing to a naked flush.There are very few times when combo draws should be played at anything less than full throttle. Usually those times come around when you're suspicious that some of your outs are dead and/or you're involved in a multiway pot. I don't think you're making much of a mistake ever if you're getting your stack in with 12+ outs to improve your hand to one that should win the pot for you.Also, in the hand in the OP where the player opens (you said UTG) with KJ, there's no other way for him to play that hand. TP 2nd Kicker and a flush draw is an insta-all in.

WP