Kq Facing A River Bet

[Sheiky 0]

Poker Stars $5.00+$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t75/t150 Blinds - 9 playersThe Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.comUTG: t6142UTG+1: t7530UTG+2: t9950MP1: t4335MP2: t12292CO: t3450BTN: t11893SB: t5736Hero (BB): t6225Pre Flop: Hero is BB with Q:club: K:diamond:1 fold, UTG+1 calls t150, 4 folds, BTN raises to t450, 1 fold, Hero calls t300, UTG+1 calls t300Flop: (t1425) 5:heart: Q:diamond: 7:club: (3 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, BTN bets t300, Hero calls t300, UTG+1 foldsTurn: (t2025) A:heart: (2 players)Hero checks, BTN checksRiver: (t2025) 9:club: (2 players)Hero checks, BTN bets t1050, Hero ?Villain is kind of agro PF, he's made this small raise after a limper twice before, once showing down A4s.He insta bet the river, i'm pretty sure he doesn't check behind an ace or two-pair/trips on the turn, but his river bet confused me. A) Do you call the river? B) Do you raise the flop?

[donk5 0]

Poker Stars $5.00+$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t75/t150 Blinds - 9 playersThe Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.comUTG: t6142UTG+1: t7530UTG+2: t9950MP1: t4335MP2: t12292CO: t3450BTN: t11893SB: t5736Hero (BB): t6225Pre Flop: Hero is BB with Q:club: K:diamond:1 fold, UTG+1 calls t150, 4 folds, BTN raises to t450, 1 fold, Hero calls t300, UTG+1 calls t300Flop: (t1425) 5:heart: Q:diamond: 7:club: (3 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, BTN bets t300, Hero calls t300, UTG+1 foldsTurn: (t2025) A:heart: (2 players)Hero checks, BTN checksRiver: (t2025) 9:club: (2 players)Hero checks, BTN bets t1050, Hero ?Villain is kind of agro PF, he's made this small raise after a limper twice before, once showing down A4s.He insta bet the river, i'm pretty sure he doesn't check behind an ace or two-pair/trips on the turn, but his river bet confused me. A) Do you call the river? B) Do you raise the flop?

raise the flop...as played call the river

[Sheiky 0]

raise the flop...as played call the river

Ok, why?

[Metternich 0]

because you look super weak here. Raise that flop 100% of the time you have a hand, 50% of the time you don't (depending on villain). As it is you should definitely call, he's probably bluffing because you just look so weak here.

[cheesies 0]

Leading the flop gets you out of difficult decisions like this as it defines your hand, however you will often get less value. I don't mind a flop check-raise either as you win more if he cbet/folds than you would just leading, and also sometimes leading into an aggro preflop raiser can often be like a red flag to a bull - he can raise you off your hand. Having said this, I often take passive lines like this and check/call the flop - I don't like making bets that will mostly make better hands call/raise and worse hands fold. But you don't get into tricky river situations so often ;)As played I think the river is a call since the flop play is passive. He could be value betting QJ/QT or bluffing. A blocking bet of ~900 is another option. It costs only a bit less in this case, but villain could easily bet $1500 when checked to, putting you in an even less comfortable position.

[copernicus 0]

Leading the flop gets you out of difficult decisions like this as it defines your hand, however you will often get less value. I don't mind a flop check-raise either as you win more if he cbet/folds than you would just leading, and also sometimes leading into an aggro preflop raiser can often be like a red flag to a bull - he can raise you off your hand. Having said this, I often take passive lines like this and check/call the flop - I don't like making bets that will mostly make better hands call/raise and worse hands fold. But you don't get into tricky river situations so often ;)As played I think the river is a call since the flop play is passive. He could be value betting QJ/QT or bluffing. A blocking bet of ~900 is another option. It costs only a bit less in this case, but villain could easily bet $1500 when checked to, putting you in an even less comfortable position.

^ the only other thing Id add is that since you are up against a dominating stack you want to define your strong but not monster hands. You dont want to fight them with TP/GK, where you win a little when he doesnt catch or lose a lot if you let him catch.

[Sheiky 0]

Leading the flop gets you out of difficult decisions like this as it defines your hand, however you will often get less value. I don't mind a flop check-raise either as you win more if he cbet/folds than you would just leading, and also sometimes leading into an aggro preflop raiser can often be like a red flag to a bull - he can raise you off your hand. Having said this, I often take passive lines like this and check/call the flop - I don't like making bets that will mostly make better hands call/raise and worse hands fold. But you don't get into tricky river situations so often ;)As played I think the river is a call since the flop play is passive. He could be value betting QJ/QT or bluffing. A blocking bet of ~900 is another option. It costs only a bit less in this case, but villain could easily bet $1500 when checked to, putting you in an even less comfortable position.

I agree that taking the line that makes your hand easiest to play can often be the correct option, but here i think i lose too much value by leading. The players in the hand were pretty predictable from what i'd seen so far and the board is pretty dry for their ranges so i felt comfortable playing the turn and river after taking my turn and flop line. I acctualy make blocking bets a lot which i think is a bit of a leak atm, but here i think it'd be more of a straight value bet as i was pretty damn sure when he checked the turn that he didn't have an ace, two-pair or trips so i'd be betting against QJ and lower pocket pairs. I think the river play is close as his range was air, QJ/QT and low pockets pairs, with about a 60/40 emphasis on air so i thought it'd be slightly better to check and induce a bluff (though given that i had to think about calling the river this may not have been the best choice) rather than make a thin value bet against a worse queen and a few lower PPs.

[cheesies 0]

I acctualy make blocking bets a lot which i think is a bit of a leak atm, but here i think it'd be more of a straight value bet as i was pretty damn sure when he checked the turn that he didn't have an ace, two-pair or trips so i'd be betting against QJ and lower pocket pairs. I think the river play is close as his range was air, QJ/QT and low pockets pairs with about a 60/40 emphasis on air, so i thought it'd be slightly better to check and induce a bluff (though given that i had to think about calling the river this may not have been the best choice) rather than make a thin value bet against a worse queen and a few lower PPs.

In which case I like a check/call on the river. I'm actually the opposite and rarely, if ever, make blocking bets even when I really know he's not bluffing the river if I check but then I have to call the 3/4 pot bet because 'that's the way I played it'. Meh.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Sheiky I don't get it. Are you playing against a LAG or a total, unpredicatable manic? If he's just a LAG, he's not checking the turn with Qx, especially if he thinks you're paying attention to his LAGiness and will call him light. So yeah, air, mid pair or dirtballed set.Actually, it's no dirtball since you didn't protect your hand. I think c/r is a good play here, since we have a fair chance that our villain will think we're making a play and will double you with a hand much worse than ours. If not c/r, then lead man, lead. Protect your hand, get chips. If I took your line and it was justifiable in my mind, the river is at the very least a call, if not a push: because I c/c the flop and check the turn, i'm convinced that my QK is always good here so there's no reason for me to lay it down for any bet. But I would never take your line.

[Sheiky 0]

Sheiky I don't get it. Are you playing against a LAG or a total, unpredicatable manic? If he's just a LAG, he's not checking the turn with Qx, especially if he thinks you're paying attention to his LAGiness and will call him light. So yeah, air, mid pair or dirtballed set.Actually, it's no dirtball since you didn't protect your hand. I think c/r is a good play here, since we have a fair chance that our villain will think we're making a play and will double you with a hand much worse than ours. If not c/r, then lead man, lead. Protect your hand, get chips. If I took your line and it was justifiable in my mind, the river is at the very least a call, if not a push: because I c/c the flop and check the turn, i'm convinced that my QK is always good here so there's no reason for me to lay it down for any bet. But I would never take your line.

He's not a LAG or a maniac, he's a fairly loose passive player who's made this small-ish raise PF before and showed down A4s, from what i've seen of his postflop play he's not an aggressive bluffy type at all and basically plays his hand pretty transparently.Ok, why do i need to protect my hand? Protect against what? His range hasn't hit that board at all, he's not raising 68 PF so he's either got 2-3 outs or i've got him crushed. Even so, i don't think he's the type of player that i'm going to be able to get it in on the flop without being behind very often, imo this is not a spot to try and play a massive pot, we're OOP on a dry board against a predictable opponent, i think checking and calling gets a lot more chips overall than leading does. I think a river c/r is really awful, what's the point? I was pretty sure he didn't check behind an ace, two pair or trips on the turn so my hand's most likely good. However, if i got my read wrong and he has a better hand, he's never ever folding it to a river c/r, and he's most likely never V-bet/calling with a worse hand. I don't see any reason why you would check/raise the river.

[DonkSlayer 1]

I think a river c/r is really awful, what's the point? I was pretty sure he didn't check behind an ace, two pair or trips on the turn so my hand's most likely good. However, if i got my read wrong and he has a better hand, he's never ever folding it to a river c/r, and he's most likely never V-bet/calling with a worse hand. I don't see any reason why you would check/raise the river.

Apologies for being unclear, I was saying c/r the flop.If you don't feel like you have to protect your hand and all the other stuff you wrote you think true, then the river is an instacall with no need to post.

[cheesies 0]

I hate a river check-raise also. You're just turning your hand into a bluff, even though it has lots of showdown value. ALL worse hands fold and most better hands call. Makes no sense.EDIT: 'the river is at the very least a call, if not a push'Do you mean a check/raise push, or an open push? I don't really like either.

[Sheiky 0]

Apologies for being unclear, I was saying c/r the flop.If you don't feel like you have to protect your hand and all the other stuff you wrote you think true, then the river is an instacall with no need to post.

Lol yeh i noticed after i posted that i pretty much have to call the river given how i played the hand, but at the time i took a pretty long time as i didn't get the feelin he was bluffing, but in the end i had to go with my read that he didn't have a hand on the turn and call.I'm going to say i lost the hand, can you guess what he had?

[copernicus 0]

Lol yeh i noticed after i posted that i pretty much have to call the river given how i played the hand, but at the time i took a pretty long time as i didn't get the feelin he was bluffing, but in the end i had to go with my read that he didn't have a hand on the turn and call.I'm going to say i lost the hand, can you guess what he had?

sounds like an 86

[Sheiky 0]

I called and he flipped over 99 for a rivered set.

[Berwatchey 0]

I called and he flipped over 99 for a rivered set.

not surprised he flipped over the set. thats what i would have guessed. when he led out and you smooth called the flop i like that play. but i HATE your checking the turn. you should have made a 2/3 pot bet with that ace comming. there was a really good chance he hit the flop and was seeing where he was at. when you checked the ace you lost control of the hand. you basically let him draw to get a better hand when he probably knew he was behind. you got no information on his hand because you checked. if you had bet you could have at least found out how serious he was. and with only 9's and 2 overs on the board he proably would have mucked his hand to a 2/3 bet.if it was me i'd of folded the river.

[cheesies 0]

not surprised he flipped over the set. thats what i would have guessed. when he led out and you smooth called the flop i like that play. but i HATE your checking the turn. you should have made a 2/3 pot bet with that ace comming. there was a really good chance he hit the flop and was seeing where he was at. when you checked the ace you lost control of the hand. you basically let him draw to get a better hand when he probably knew he was behind. you got no information on his hand because you checked. if you had bet you could have at least found out how serious he was. and with only 9's and 2 overs on the board he proably would have mucked his hand to a 2/3 bet.if it was me i'd of folded the river.

It seems like you're being results-orientated. Folding the river as played is a mistake. As we've mentioned, the passive flop and turn play mean that the villain could be betting a wide range of hands here. Also, I really don't get leading the turn A. Why would you represent a scare card when your hand has showdown value? You don't want hands like 99/QT/air folding. They might draw out on you now and then, but the rest of the time you're getting enough value for it to be worthwhile.

[copernicus 0]

Note how much more straightforward the hand plays vs 99 with a a flop bet or check/raise or flop and turn bets.

[Sheiky 0]

Note how much more straightforward the hand plays vs 99 with a a flop bet or check/raise or flop and turn bets.

Straightforward =/ Produces biggest expectation

[copernicus 0]

Straightforward =/ Produces biggest expectation

When you are playing against a covering stack straightfoward is likely to produce the highest $ expectation with marginal hands. The rule of thumb "avoid playing against big stacks" is wrong, imo, because when you do hit a monster it pays huge returns. However, if you try and play deceptively with a mediocre hand against a covering stack the result is win a little/lose the tourney. A small +tEV is still a big -$EV.

[Sheiky 0]

When you are playing against a covering stack straightfoward is likely to produce the highest $ expectation with marginal hands. The rule of thumb "avoid playing against big stacks" is wrong, imo, because when you do hit a monster it pays huge returns. However, if you try and play deceptively with a mediocre hand against a covering stack the result is win a little/lose the tourney. A small +tEV is still a big -$EV.

1) wasn't aiming for deception2) My hand isn't really in the mediocre category3) i disagree entirely, raising here would create the oppurtunity to 'lose the tourney' playing a small pot like i did reduces the risk/reward both ways, by checking 3 streets i'm never losing the tourney with this hand.

[copernicus 0]

1) wasn't aiming for deception2) My hand isn't really in the mediocre category3) i disagree entirely, raising here would create the oppurtunity to 'lose the tourney' playing a small pot like i did reduces the risk/reward both ways, by checking 3 streets i'm never losing the tourney with this hand.

1) that may not have been your purpose but thats the effect2) TPTK is a mediocre hand.3) What value it does have you passed on. Bet the flop, get a read and you can realize at least some of the value without increasing tournament risk.

[rog 0]

As played, I have a hard time folding on the river. You've under-represented your hand, and have induced a value bet from a worse hand, or even an outright bluff a fair bit of the time.That said, I don't check/call the flop. I'm either leading something like 1/2 pot, or check/raising to pot sized. If the bet comes from UTG+1 guy instead of villain, I might even check/fold, but I really don't like check/call here.

[MovingIn 0]

Bet the flop and don't give a lesser hand a free or cheap chance to outdraw. Worry about expectation when we flop a monster. When we have a small edge, focus on taking the pot while it's our's and/or charging villains to draw out.

[Berwatchey 0]

It seems like you're being results-orientated. Folding the river as played is a mistake. As we've mentioned, the passive flop and turn play mean that the villain could be betting a wide range of hands here. Also, I really don't get leading the turn A. Why would you represent a scare card when your hand has showdown value? You don't want hands like 99/QT/air folding. They might draw out on you now and then, but the rest of the time you're getting enough value for it to be worthwhile.

you are absolutely right, but since he really had no idea what the villian had even after the flop bet, he shouldnt have let him keep drawing without knowing what kind of hand his opponent had. he hit top pair. not 2 pair. his hand is decent but it's not amazing. checking left him weak and out of control of the pot. there are alot of hands that can beat his hand on the turn. checking gave him a free card without any information as to his opponents strength. if he had bet. it wouldnt have been alot of his stack. and he most likely would have won.as to this "3) i disagree entirely, raising here would create the oppurtunity to 'lose the tourney' playing a small pot like i did reduces the risk/reward both ways, by checking 3 streets i'm never losing the tourney with this hand."you check 3 streets, you wont lose...but you also ended up calling a sizeable bet(like 1/5 your remaining stack i think) on the river because you couldnt put you opponent on a hand. yur logic fails, by that logic you should have folded the river and let it go. at some point you have to determine how comitted you are to a hand. because you didnt bet or do anything to get info. and checking your hand wont cause you to lose...but your not likely to win much either.