The Lobster 0 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 So what is my play here? I am still not quite sure after thinking about it for a good while...Oh, and is my check on the turn terrible?CO is a spewy donk that I was not terribly concerned with, but Button is running around 40/5 with very low post flop aggression, making me think his raise was strong. Absolute Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Absolute Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)saw flop|saw showdownSB ($109.02)BB ($35.75)Hero ($57.80)MP ($51.68)CO ($78.17)Button ($81.75)Preflop: Hero is UTG with J , J . Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, CO calls $2, Button calls $2, 2 folds.Flop: ($6.75) Q , K , A (3 players)Hero bets $5, CO calls $5, Button calls $5.Turn: ($21.75) T (3 players)Hero checks, CO bets $8, Button raises to $18, Hero ???? Link to post Share on other sites
Citizen Erased 0 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 For the record, I wouldn't C-Bet this flop as you are going to get called, and your outs could easily be dead.As it happens, though, you've hit pretty much as good as you could on the turn (bar the flush). Still, this is easily two-pair (very possibly with the ) rather than a flush to re-raise All-in, from what I've seen. Shove, and hope for a blank on the river Link to post Share on other sites
litlebullet 0 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Lobster hit the nail on the head here. Check/ fold flop, shove the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
Craigdog 0 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 yeah here is an example of when not to bet a flop, the only time I would consider firing on the flop if its heads up and I have solid read on villian. As played I think a shove it's proably best! Link to post Share on other sites
StilettoNole 0 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 First off, gotta shove where the turn. And feel pretty confident about it. Secondly, I'd like to try and encourage more discussion on not c-betting this flop here. I think our opponents would think that we could easily have hit our hand hard on that flop and both simply fold. They could have small pp's or suited connectors. I think I c-bet this every time, but maybe that is a mistake. I would love some more comments on it. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 I think I c-bet this every time, but maybe that is a mistake. I would love some more comments on it. Thanks.Really monstrous mistake. Betting into his board OOP against 2 opponents in a raised pot is about as effective as lighting money on fire. That's really all that needs to be said about it. Their ranges match VERY WELL with this board and you'll be caled by flush draws, better pairs and pairs/gutters here every time and you'll have no idea who has what.Check/Fold flop FTW. Link to post Share on other sites
The Lobster 0 Posted February 27, 2008 Author Share Posted February 27, 2008 Really monstrous mistake. Betting into his board OOP against 2 opponents in a raised pot is about as effective as lighting money on fire. That's really all that needs to be said about it. Their ranges match VERY WELL with this board and you'll be caled by flush draws, better pairs and pairs/gutters here every time and you'll have no idea who has what.Check/Fold flop FTW.Gotcha. Yeah, I cbet a little too much and am still working out finding the right situations not to. I guess my thinking on this hand at the time was that it was my only chance to win so why not fire 1 barrel then give up, but in hindsight I see that it was a very bad decision.Question though - if I had position on these two callers and it was checked to me on the flop, would you cbet in that case? Or is a flop like that just going to make me concede the hand no matter what? Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Shove, ftw. Link to post Share on other sites
silentegon 0 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Maybe I'm the only one but I don't think that this is an auto shove. While we have 2 of the jacks with this many people in the hand there is still both the chance of a flush and a chop with a hand like Aj with the A of hearts. Not that I think it is a clear fold but not a 100% shove. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Question though - if I had position on these two callers and it was checked to me on the flop, would you cbet in that case? Or is a flop like that just going to make me concede the hand no matter what?I would take the free card. Betting is still just as bad, but position makes us happy.Against most (almost every) opponents, seeing 3 coordinated overcards to your pair and a flush draw is a perfect time to give up on the hand. Link to post Share on other sites
The Lobster 0 Posted February 27, 2008 Author Share Posted February 27, 2008 I would take the free card. Betting is still just as bad, but position makes us happy.Against most (almost every) opponents, seeing 3 coordinated overcards to your pair and a flush draw is a perfect time to give up on the hand.Thats what I was thinking, just wanted to make sure. Thx. Link to post Share on other sites
petersun 0 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Do people feel that people will call the shove with 2 pair or trips here? What is the value of the shove except to push out the other straights. Even then, AhJx might call. So anyone who calls you has a flush and at worse AhJx or AhAx. Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Do people feel that people will call the shove with 2 pair or trips here? What is the value of the shove except to push out the other straights. Even then, AhJx might call. So anyone who calls you has a flush and at worse AhJx or AhAx.Or JxXx. Or AK, or AQ, or Jx10h or Ax10h. And if AhAx calls, we're crushing him, so that's fine, right?We have the second nut flush redraw and the made nut straight. All calling does is put you to an awful decision on the river. I don't like it, but I think you just have to shove on this turn. Link to post Share on other sites
petersun 0 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Or JxXx. Or AK, or AQ, or Jx10h or Ax10h. And if AhAx calls, we're crushing him, so that's fine, right?We have the second nut flush redraw and the made nut straight. All calling does is put you to an awful decision on the river. I don't like it, but I think you just have to shove on this turn.I am just looking at the range of things that would call us and so far it seems there are more hands that have us beat. I think it really depends on the level and skill of play. If these players were any good, I think 2 pair would lay it down here. There would be a strong chance for trips as well. If you feel two pair and trips would call then we have more reason to shove. Otherwise, this becomes a steal money from other other straight by representing a flush move. Pushing may well be the only move here, but I don't want to discount the chance that there is a significant chance that the flush made it here. Now, if we feel we can push out the lower flushes. That would be a more interesting discussion here. Link to post Share on other sites
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