Al Smooth 0 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 No history with villain as he just got moved to the table when the money bubble broke. Is it too nitty to fold this hand at this point in the tournament with this flop.That range of hands can the BB have that can CR this flop and not raise the turn? AA could be in his range pre but I don't think AA cr's this flop. Bottomline, call and re-evel on turn, fold, or shove?Poker Stars $100 $9 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t1000/t2000 Blinds - 6 playersThe Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.comSB: t76016BB: t85600UTG: t25282Hero (MP): t64819CO: t47719BTN: t125104Pre Flop: Hero is MP with 1 fold, Hero raises to t5000, 3 folds, BB calls t3000Flop: (t12200) (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets t8000, BB raises to t21550??? Link to post Share on other sites
NonZeroPossibility 0 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I think I make it a little more than 5k pf, but this is a tough decision here.... I think he has to put you on an ace at this point though, right? Or he thinks you're just making a cb. So the c/r could be A6, A5, 55, or 66... or absolutely nothing.... and the question becomes: What are you beating here? A9, A8, A7 or air.... And A9, A8 and A7 isn't going to c/r this flop. I think I fold. You still have about 50k to work with if you fold and you only beat a complete bluff.I don't like a flat call, because any decent player will realize you aren't that strong and just push the turn. It's all-in or fold, imo. Link to post Share on other sites
Al Smooth 0 Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 a Doamind Draw would play the hand the exact same way as the bb did...KQdd, or J10DD are definate possiblities of hands that would flat pre at this stage of a tournament...A5 and a6 aren't even in his range imho because of the stage and level of the tournament Link to post Share on other sites
NankerPhelge 0 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Yeh I'd raise a bit more PF. Difficult decision here. I think it's 55, 66 or as you said two diamonds and he thinks he can semi-bluff you off the hand. I don't think you can flat call. It's all-in or fold. With no reads I fold. Link to post Share on other sites
throwemaway 0 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Most players adopt a 2.5x BB raise at they get deeper in mtts...Ignore Pf, its standard Link to post Share on other sites
Sheiky 0 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I know the results on this one but i still think you did the right thing.In a field as strong as this one, i think there's a bigger chance than normal that he's check raising a worse hand here and given that he only called from the BB i think his range is pretty wide.Congrats on getting this far though. Link to post Share on other sites
donk4life 34 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 PF is fine..Meh.. i don't like flat calling in this spot.. .. Could this also be a monster draw such as 78d?I just don't see this being AJ or AQ.. and I definetely can't see this being A5, A6, the only logical hands are 5s, 6s, or some kind of diamond draw.. either way, your hand is pretty vulnerable.. I'd fold.. find a better spot Link to post Share on other sites
gobears 0 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Tough one - I don't think that he has a better ace as he probably snaps you off preflop. Draws, sets, maybe two low pair are in the range. I probably call and go to war if a non-diamond card falls on the turn since that is a big part of his range. Link to post Share on other sites
Al Smooth 0 Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 Tough one - I don't think that he has a better ace as he probably snaps you off preflop. Draws, sets, maybe two low pair are in the range. I probably call and go to war if a non-diamond card falls on the turn since that is a big part of his range.This is EXACTLY how I played it. Didn't do anything quickly...took about half of my time bank...looked the guy up on OPR and poker tracker and decided this was the correct play. Link to post Share on other sites
donk4life 34 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 This is EXACTLY how I played it.What did the turn bring? Link to post Share on other sites
Al Smooth 0 Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 on the turn, BB leads for all of our chips.Decision time. Link to post Share on other sites
throwemaway 0 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 on the turn, BB leads for all of our chips.Decision time.Once you take that flop line, you defintely have to call here..Only 34 got there and if he is flatting with that in the BB to a MP raise, well, good for him Link to post Share on other sites
gobears 0 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Once you take that flop line, you defintely have to call here..Only 34 got there and if he is flatting with that in the BB to a MP raise, well, good for himYeah, that's a pretty benign card unless he has 34. I call Link to post Share on other sites
Al Smooth 0 Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 The logical question is, with 20 bb's remaining and plenty of fold equity, do we NEED to call off here with A10? I think that even with floating the flop to evaluate the turn card we leave ourselves plenty of room to fold to his bet on the turn and still have enough of a stack to win the tournament. It may not be the best line overall, but sometimes strange plays are the only correct move.Basically, what other lines would you take on this hand?1) Fold Preflop? Personally I've been open folding A10off a LOT lately but at this point in the tournament I think it would be a little too nitty2) Check behind on the flop to attempt to manage the pot size?3) C-bet the flop and fold to a raise or shut down to a check call?Remember, there's only 20 remaining...~20k for first, $600 if we bust now and 3 bb's in our stack to start the hand. Link to post Share on other sites
gobears 0 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Basically, what other lines would you take on this hand?1) Fold Preflop? Personally I've been open folding A10off a LOT lately but at this point in the tournament I think it would be a little too nitty2) Check behind on the flop to attempt to manage the pot size?3) C-bet the flop and fold to a raise or shut down to a check call?1. Seems too nitty especially six-handed2. Against an unknown, I normally assume that a call instead of a snap suggests a weak hand. With an ace on the flop, I think that we have to fire a CB since there's a decent chance we take it down.3. I think that this is a valid option, fold to raise since his c/r with an ace on the flop suggests strength. If he called our cb, then I could see check/calling the turn to play for pot control.The reason why I think that our ace might be good is due to the draw heavy flop - c/r that flop and then firing the turn after you call his c/r is what an aggro player would do if he flopped a big draw. I'd be much more apt to let the hand go if it was a dry flop. Link to post Share on other sites
Al Smooth 0 Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 1. Seems too nitty especially six-handed2. Against an unknown, I normally assume that a call instead of a snap suggests a weak hand. With an ace on the flop, I think that we have to fire a CB since there's a decent chance we take it down.3. I think that this is a valid option, fold to raise since his c/r with an ace on the flop suggests strength. If he called our cb, then I could see check/calling the turn to play for pot control.The reason why I think that our ace might be good is due to the draw heavy flop - c/r that flop and then firing the turn after you call his c/r is what an aggro player would do if he flopped a big draw. I'd be much more apt to let the hand go if it was a dry flop.we were in position on this hand, so his raise would be a c/r Link to post Share on other sites
gobears 0 Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 we were in position on this hand, so his raise would be a c/rThat's what I meant - did I write it down wrong somewhere? Link to post Share on other sites
Al Smooth 0 Posted January 11, 2008 Author Share Posted January 11, 2008 That's what I meant - did I write it down wrong somewhere?you suggested check calling the turn...we wouldn't and didn't have that option as the villain acted first. Maybe it's just my nitty self coming out Link to post Share on other sites
donk4life 34 Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 you suggested check calling the turn...we wouldn't and didn't have that option as the villain acted first. Maybe it's just my nitty self coming out I'm curious as to hand this played out.... Results please? Link to post Share on other sites
Al Smooth 0 Posted January 11, 2008 Author Share Posted January 11, 2008 called the CR on the flop, he lead out for my exact number of chips on the turn, I eventually called and he had a flopped set of sixes. gg me. Link to post Share on other sites
NonZeroPossibility 0 Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 Most players adopt a 2.5x BB raise at they get deeper in mtts...Ignore Pf, its standardI do realize this but don't agree with the strategy.... Afterall, the point of raising at least 3x BB pf is all about odds. Why give the BB or anyone else better odds to call and see a flop? Link to post Share on other sites
Al Smooth 0 Posted January 11, 2008 Author Share Posted January 11, 2008 I do realize this but don't agree with the strategy.... Afterall, the point of raising at least 3x BB pf is all about odds. Why give the BB or anyone else better odds to call and see a flop?*sigh*As a tournament goes on, the blinds are larger in relation to EVERYONE's stack. Pot odds on calling pre-flop pretty much go out the window as most of the time decisions come down to yes or no. You're not going to be speculating on too many flops when 20 of the last 30 players are pretty much between 15-25 BB's. Everyone is in protection mode so if you can risk 5-7 BB's on a pre flop raise and C-bet rather than 7-10 bb's, it's nothing more than good stack management. It's all about learning to control pot size and as long as you do it consistently it becomes very hard to pick apart a light pre flop open from QQ+. That's the ultimate genius of it. Someone who opens for 2.5 bb's and c-bets 3.5 will be able to open about 50% more pots than the guy who opens for 3x and then cbets 6x (6x representing about 75% of the pot post flop). Learn to control the size of the pots played at your table and you'll become a MUCH better player VERY quickly. Link to post Share on other sites
NonZeroPossibility 0 Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 *sigh*As a tournament goes on, the blinds are larger in relation to EVERYONE's stack. Pot odds on calling pre-flop pretty much go out the window as most of the time decisions come down to yes or no. You're not going to be speculating on too many flops when 20 of the last 30 players are pretty much between 15-25 BB's. Everyone is in protection mode so if you can risk 5-7 BB's on a pre flop raise and C-bet rather than 7-10 bb's, it's nothing more than good stack management. It's all about learning to control pot size and as long as you do it consistently it becomes very hard to pick apart a light pre flop open from QQ+. That's the ultimate genius of it. Someone who opens for 2.5 bb's and c-bets 3.5 will be able to open about 50% more pots than the guy who opens for 3x and then cbets 6x (6x representing about 75% of the pot post flop). Learn to control the size of the pots played at your table and you'll become a MUCH better player VERY quickly.I still don't agree. Pot odds are still there, regardless of the size of stack. And why would we want to be raising 2.5BB with a hand as big as QQ+ this deep in the tourny and c-bet 3.5? I would want as many chips in the middle as possible as soon as possible. Keep raising 2.5BB and playing more hands and you're going to get played back at more often. I would rather play a little tighter and raise 3xBB or more when I do come into a pot. That way, I am a bigger favorite over random hands and I'm getting more money into the pot as the bigger favorite. I will also get more respect on steals and re-steals playing with a tighter image.Maybe I just get drawn out on too much, but it just amazes me when I see people barely betting over the minimum at any time in No Limit. What's with the *sigh* btw? I know how to control the size of the pot, and obv I know a little more about poker than you because I realized that the c/r probably meant he had at least 2 pair. And what could you beat? A diamond draw? He had to put you on Ace there, so he's not doing this on a draw. That's called 3rd and 4th level thinking. Something I brought up in the second post of the thread and not you or anyone else is this discussion is even doing.I told you it wasn't a diamond draw, well I guess after looking at my original post, I didn't use those exact words, I just didn't mention it because a diamond draw doesn't make sense unless it's 78d in which case you are a dog. It was a monster or nothing. You played that hand so bad, I don't see myself taking advice from you anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
NonZeroPossibility 0 Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 a Doamind Draw would play the hand the exact same way as the bb did...KQdd, or J10DD are definate possiblities of hands that would flat pre at this stage of a tournament...A5 and a6 aren't even in his range imho because of the stage and level of the tournamentMissed this part. So you wouldn't defend your BB for 1.5BB more to call with an A5 or A6 suited and 85k in chips? Sure..... Link to post Share on other sites
throwemaway 0 Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 I still don't agree. Pot odds are still there, regardless of the size of stack. And why would we want to be raising 2.5BB with a hand as big as QQ+ this deep in the tourny and c-bet 3.5? I would want as many chips in the middle as possible as soon as possible. Keep raising 2.5BB and playing more hands and you're going to get played back at more often. I would rather play a little tighter and raise 3xBB or more when I do come into a pot. That way, I am a bigger favorite over random hands and I'm getting more money into the pot as the bigger favorite. I will also get more respect on steals and re-steals playing with a tighter image.Maybe I just get drawn out on too much, but it just amazes me when I see people barely betting over the minimum at any time in No Limit. What's with the *sigh* btw? I know how to control the size of the pot, and obv I know a little more about poker than you because I realized that the c/r probably meant he had at least 2 pair. And what could you beat? A diamond draw? He had to put you on Ace there, so he's not doing this on a draw. That's called 3rd and 4th level thinking. Something I brought up in the second post of the thread and not you or anyone else is this discussion is even doing.I told you it wasn't a diamond draw, well I guess after looking at my original post, I didn't use those exact words, I just didn't mention it because a diamond draw doesn't make sense unless it's 78d in which case you are a dog. It was a monster or nothing. You played that hand so bad, I don't see myself taking advice from you anyway. Lol try not to be so condescending..It really makes reading your posts a drag...Al is a respected player and poster and all the points he brings about are extremely valid..Just chill and try not to make things personal, mmmmk? Link to post Share on other sites
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