88 Threehanded Against A Rock

[NoBBiR 0]

Game has winded down to three handed. Psycho LAG, a Rock, and me playing TAG, but very very aggressively since (obviously) it's three handed.Villain in question is a Rock, but he understands that it is three handed, so he's obviously going to be playing more hands and not just big hands. He's probably the only other player in my home game that isn't completely god awful.Hero is button with 8 8 with $170 /bragSB Villain is a Rock with $49BB is a LAG with $50Hero raises to $1.50.SB calls.BB calls.Pot: $4.5Flop: 9 7 6 :club:SB bets $5BB calls $5Hero raises to $15.00SB thinks for about 20 seconds while shuffling his chips and then shoves.BB says he guesses he'll get out of the way after deliberating for a while.Hero pukes?

[David_Nicoson 1]

If the hero calls, the final pot is $104.50. Break even at 31% equity.

Board: 9c 7s 6cDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	69.454%	  66.34% 	03.12% 			 14448 		  679.00   { TT-66, AcKc, AcQc, AcJc, AcTc, T8s }Hand 1: 	30.546%	  27.43% 	03.12% 			  5974 		  679.00   { 8d8h }

Looks pretty close to me.

[BeaverStyle 1]

Why are we raising on the flop?w/ that much action 3-handed and picking up a draw... why don't we just call and re-evaluate on the turn?

[NoBBiR 0]

Why are we raising on the flop?w/ that much action 3-handed and picking up a draw... why don't we just call and re-evaluate on the turn?

Do you always call and reevaluate hands that you think you have 10 outs to win with, that is, if you aren't winning already? I don't.

[biggs88 0]

Raise to $30 on the flop and your decision is easy.

[mtdesmoines 3]

We have position. Why didn't we just utilize it?

[mikeysong 0]

would villain cbet AK here or only overs?would he fold overs to a raise? Doubtfulif he knows anything about flop texture and still leads out, I'd simply just call as our FE here isn't very high

[krup24 0]

We have position. Why didn't we just utilize it?

we did. we raised flop to take control. i love the raise. we are getting a chance to have the turn go check/check and then we can decide what we wanna do based on the turn. not to mention we can get one or both players to fold to the raise. honestly i think the raise is good. unfortunately we were reraised which makes the raise seem bad but it isn't it's perfect imo. as played it's close for me. i lean towards a call getting 2.6:1. i think our outs are clean and if they aren't, we should be ahead. very close though.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Raise to $30 on the flop and your decision is easy.

Yes, or when playing 1/2 NL and a $200 stack, you could just open raise to like $160 when you have 45ss so that when the player with AA shoves you can go "well, I was getting the right price" as you call off your last $40.You're not trying to artificially create the proper pot odds for yourself when you make a move like this. You're trying to protect your hand from draws, possibly bluff out better hands and get value from worse hands.The raise is fine. Your equity is close enough to call. I think you have 10 lives outs here A LOT. Or the villain could have 89, which would suck sooooo bad for you!

[NoBBiR 0]

Yes, or when playing 1/2 NL and a $200 stack, you could just open raise to like $160 when you have 45ss so that when the player with AA shoves you can go "well, I was getting the right price" as you call off your last $40.You're not trying to artificially create the proper pot odds for yourself when you make a move like this. You're trying to protect your hand from draws, possibly bluff out better hands and get value from worse hands.The raise is fine. Your equity is close enough to call. I think you have 10 lives outs here A LOT. Or the villain could have 89, which would suck sooooo bad for you!

[biggs88 0]

Yes, or when playing 1/2 NL and a $200 stack, you could just open raise to like $160 when you have 45ss so that when the player with AA shoves you can go "well, I was getting the right price" as you call off your last $40.You're not trying to artificially create the proper pot odds for yourself when you make a move like this. You're trying to protect your hand from draws, possibly bluff out better hands and get value from worse hands.The raise is fine. Your equity is close enough to call. I think you have 10 lives outs here A LOT. Or the villain could have 89, which would suck sooooo bad for you!

I'm confused, you said the purpose of the raise to $30 is to price out draws (amongst other things), then you said the raise to $15 as played is fine. I wouldn't call giving the SB 3-1 and the BB 4-1 on a draw heavy board "protecting your hand from draws".And yes, I realise that the reason for raising to $30 is not create the proper pot odds, but it is merely a standard raise (if you were going to raise and not call) given the situation (board, #opponents etc).

[No_Neck 0]

If you can take flush draws out of his range... is he the type of player that will push with draws? if not you have to fold IMHO.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Pricing out a draw (or for that matter, betting for value against it) in this situation is pretty much a lost cause. The villain pretty much has to have two overs or some sort of straight draw or pair to go with a flush draw.

Board: 9c 7s 6cDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	51.515%	  51.21% 	00.30% 			   507 			3.00   { 8c8h }Hand 1: 	48.485%	  48.18% 	00.30% 			   477 			3.00   { AcJc }

[NoBBiR 0]

I'm confused, you said the purpose of the raise to $30 is to price out draws (amongst other things), then you said the raise to $15 as played is fine. I wouldn't call giving the SB 3-1 and the BB 4-1 on a draw heavy board "protecting your hand from draws".And yes, I realise that the reason for raising to $30 is not create the proper pot odds, but it is merely a standard raise (if you were going to raise and not call) given the situation (board, #opponents etc).

That is lunacy. And you're not giving the BB 4-1 unless the small blind flat calls, which is pretty unlikely given that the loose aggressive BB is still to act behind him. You're giving them both 3-1, which is enough to price them off of a straight draw, or a flush draw. However, if they have a combo draw of any kind, they are getting priced in, but they aren't folding anyway.Making it $30 is stupid. Both players have a total of $50. All that making it $30 does is tell them "Fold all hands that I'm beating and stick every single hand that I'm WAYYYYYYYYYY behind to in the pot because obviously at this point I'm never folding." Also, you might as well shove, because no one is going to call 3/5 of their stack at this point. But shoving is mathematically incorrect because you're supposed to price out draws, not blow them off of their hands. I would also never be able to fold, so I'm essentially just giving myself great odds and a reason to bitch when the guy turns over a hand that has me crushed, which isn't the point of pot odds.

[NoBBiR 0]

If you can take flush draws out of his range... is he the type of player that will push with draws? if not you have to fold IMHO.

He is a tight player when it comes to hand requirements, but I don't really think you can take a big draw out of his range. He is a thinking player, not a 'I FLOPPED TOP PAIR, HOW CAN IT NOT BE GOOD?' type.

[Money022 0]

Do you always call and reevaluate hands that you think you have 10 outs to win with, that is, if you aren't winning already? I don't.

It's quite likely counting 10 outs is optimistic.

[pt special 0]

what would u do with A8 here....if its fold then u have to fold 8s, even tho he could be doing this with a a pair and a draw here you still have to give him some sort of credit since hes been playin pretty tightaslo i would have called flop and folded to a brick turn

[NoBBiR 0]

Villain rolled over AA. Wtf.

[No_Neck 0]

Villain rolled over AA. Wtf.

and he failed to dodge all those outs right?

[NoBBiR 0]

and he failed to dodge all those outs right?

Nope, he dodged them like it was his job. He turned the Nut Flush draw too.

[rainbowbrite 0]

what would u do with A8 here....if its fold then u have to fold 8s, even tho he could be doing this with a a pair and a draw here you still have to give him some sort of credit since hes been playin pretty tightaslo i would have called flop and folded to a brick turn

i disagree 88 adds 2 outs which is huge. I think most of the time all 10 outs are good and you def have the right math to call. I would not be thrilled with his shove either but im def calling. I think a fold here is not right at all. That said, I don't hate your raise but im not sold on it either. were you looking to just take it down? or to get heads up? I think you peel the card and if you hit you may get more value, I really dont see a reason to icolate here

[TheWanderer 0]

Time to fold.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

It's quite likely counting 10 outs is optimistic.

Ummm... 9-8, 9-9, or 10-8 would be it... and for a *tight* player, I don't see any of those hands being there that often.Easy call even knowing you're behind.