Mormons

[Loismustdie 0]

Wow...I just gained a whole new level of respect for the guy. I like how concisely he answers and then dismisses the question as unimportant. Very cool find, thanks.

I like how you miss the next statements about how he doesn't think about it much, hasn't really studied it and soon enough he would be dead anyway and then he would know. Yeah, you should probably just forget that he said all of that and stuff, just focus on the fact that he questioned with apparently no reason. You're not REALLY that easy, are you?

[speedz99 145]

I like how you miss the next statements about how he doesn't think about it much, hasn't really studied it and soon enough he would be dead anyway and then he would know. Yeah, you should probably just forget that he said all of that and stuff, just focus on the fact that he questioned with apparently no reason. You're not REALLY that easy, are you?

None of that negates what I said...so what's your point? Seriously, I don't see what you're trying to say. Are you arguing that he did believe in Jesus' divinity and that he didn't dismiss the question as unimportant to him?

[Loismustdie 0]

None of that negates what I said...so what's your point? Seriously, I don't see what you're trying to say. Are you arguing that he did believe in Jesus' divinity and that he didn't dismiss the question as unimportant to him?

What you are saying is that you give relevance to someone saying they question Jesus divinity, but have never really given it much thought, never studied it, just figured one day through death they would know anyway. How is that something to even pay attention to? Then, furthermore, you claim that these apparently (and even admittedly) uneducated statements from him earn your respect. Why? How? How does Ben Franklin making and uneducated statement against Christ earn your respect? Forgive me, but that is ****ing stupid.

[speedz99 145]

What you are saying is that you give relevance to someone saying they question Jesus divinity, but have never really given it much thought, never studied it, just figured one day through death they would know anyway. How is that something to even pay attention to? Then, furthermore, you claim that these apparently (and even admittedly) uneducated statements from him earn your respect. Why? How? How does Ben Franklin making and uneducated statement against Christ earn your respect? Forgive me, but that is ****ing stupid.

All I mentioned in my post was that he was concise and dismissive. Which he was. What are you getting all worked up about?Also, you misunderstood what I was referring to when I said it increased my respect for him. I don't care that he didn't buy Jesus as god (although I happen to agree)...I appreciate the fact that he recognizes the question itself as irrelevant for someone that has more important things on his mind...inventing shit, building nations, etc. The divinity excerpt was bolded in the original post, not by me. You think that the fact that he didn't study up on Christ makes his opinion moot, while I find that fact itself very interesting given the time period in which he was a prominent figure. I'm sorry if you think that to be "fucking stupid". I also think it's funny that you think he's making a statement "against Christ". He didn't call Christ an asshole...he just says that he doubts the guy was the son of god. It's really nothing to raise the Christ Hater Alarm over. But maybe if he was more "educated" he'd believe in Christ as our lord and savior. I kid, we know that's not true.A disproportionally large amount of modern history's greatest thinkers have distanced themselves from religion. We can add Ben Franklin to that list. No biggie. They might all be wrong.

[Loismustdie 0]

All I mentioned in my post was that he was concise and dismissive. Which he was. What are you getting all worked up about?Also, you misunderstood what I was referring to when I said it increased my respect for him. I don't care that he didn't buy Jesus as god (although I happen to agree)...I appreciate the fact that he recognizes the question itself as irrelevant for someone that has more important things on his mind...inventing shit, building nations, etc. The divinity excerpt was bolded in the original post, not by me. You think that the fact that he didn't study up on Christ makes his opinion moot, while I find that fact itself very interesting given the time period in which he was a prominent figure. I'm sorry if you think that to be "fucking stupid". I also think it's funny that you think he's making a statement "against Christ". He didn't call Christ an asshole...he just says that he doubts the guy was the son of god. It's really nothing to raise the Christ Hater Alarm over. But maybe if he was more "educated" he'd believe in Christ as our lord and savior. I kid, we know that's not true.A disproportionally large amount of modern history's greatest thinkers have distanced themselves from religion. We can add Ben Franklin to that list. No biggie. They might all be wrong.

Questioning whether or not Christ was the son of God is huge. The only reason you can't see that is you don't care either way. I am not worked up as much as finding it hilarious that you STILL are ignoring the FACT that his next statements told us that he had no idea what he was talking about and furthermore didn't really care to. So, yes, chalk him up as one more celebrity/politician that distanced himself from God, but what does that say exactly? That they can be led just as blindly as anyone else? From his statement, that is the lesson that I get. "He just says that he doubts that Christ was the son of God".....man, can't you see how arrogantly dismissive that is? Furthermore, he said he was not educated on the SUBJECT. That is what got my ear. He said what he said followed by "But I have never really studied it" and then the throngs of you go "Lookie, lookie, Ben didn't believe, wheeeee!!!"

[speedz99 145]

Questioning whether or not Christ was the son of God is huge. The only reason you can't see that is you don't care either way. I am not worked up as much as finding it hilarious that you STILL are ignoring the FACT that his next statements told us that he had no idea what he was talking about and furthermore didn't really care to. So, yes, chalk him up as one more celebrity/politician that distanced himself from God, but what does that say exactly? That they can be led just as blindly as anyone else? From his statement, that is the lesson that I get.

Holy shit, lois...I'm not ignoring it. I just don't care. But aside from (for the fourth time) the fact that my original response to that post wasn't focusing on his opinion about jesus' divinity, how would you like him to "study" up on it? Read the bible (lol)? You do realize that any real study into the supposed divinity of Christ by an objective (re: someone that doesn't already believe) would inevitably end in him concluding that there's no way to tell either way, but it's extremely unlikely that everything in the bible is true, right? Don't bother arguing about the meaning of 'objective'. We can go in circles forever about that, and you'd always be wrong. But you probably think I'd always be wrong, so whatever. Anyways (for the fifth time), that wasn't my point in the first place so please don't do what you always do and focus on the wrong thing.

"He just says that he doubts that Christ was the son of God".....man, can't you see how arrogantly dismissive that is? Furthermore, he said he was not educated on the SUBJECT. That is what got my ear. He said what he said followed by "But I have never really studied it" and then the throngs of you go "Lookie, lookie, Ben didn't believe, wheeeee!!!"

YES! THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT! HOW MUCH MORE CLEARLY CAN I SAY THAT? I find it hilarious...I know you don't see why, but I don't expect you to. Not because you're not smart enough to understand why, but because you look at it in a completely different way. You know why a genius like Ben Franklin didn't study the thing that dominated much of the world around him? Because he was smart and forward thinking enough to realize that it would have been a waste of his time. I love that.

[Loismustdie 0]

Holy shit, lois...I'm not ignoring it. I just don't care. But aside from (for the fourth time) the fact that my original response to that post wasn't focusing on his opinion about jesus' divinity, how would you like him to "study" up on it? Read the bible (lol)? You do realize that any real study into the supposed divinity of Christ by an objective (re: someone that doesn't already believe) would inevitably end in him concluding that there's no way to tell either way, but it's extremely unlikely that everything in the bible is true, right? Don't bother arguing about the meaning of 'objective'. We can go in circles forever about that, and you'd always be wrong. But you probably think I'd always be wrong, so whatever. Anyways (for the fifth time), that wasn't my point in the first place so please don't do what you always do and focus on the wrong thing.YES! THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT! HOW MUCH MORE CLEARLY CAN I SAY THAT? I find it hilarious...I know you don't see why, but I don't expect you to. Not because you're not smart enough to understand why, but because you look at it in a completely different way. You know why a genius like Ben Franklin didn't study the thing that dominated much of the world around him? Because he was smart and forward thinking enough to realize that it would have been a waste of his time. I love that.

It as always comes down to whether the Bible is a credible source of anything. To bring this back into perspective, you did realize that he said he would know upon, death, right? That's not good enough for me. Death being the time I learn of the truth isn't good enough. So, in all actuallity he is the exact opposite of forward thinking.

[renaedawn 1]

Thank you, I thought I was taking crazy pills there for a minute.I have gone back and forth on my own religious beliefs or lack there of, I really do not believe in organized religion of any kind as I think the money and power corrupt most. I do not beget anyone for attending church, being a particular relgion or anything like that, in my mind whatever personally gets you through the day and makes you feel good about yourself on this planet and the afterlife. As long as you are a good person, treat your family and fellow man with respect I could really care less what your religion is.

Unless your religion is Mormonism.I think maybe that's they bigotry that Matt and Steve were trying to figure out?I got directed to this thread because I asked why people were suspicious of electing a Mormon to the most powerful office on Earth. What I'm hearing is ElGuapo espouse the views that caused me to ask the question in the first place but other than a few points that BalloonGuy gave, nobody is really telling me why they're so scared of a powerful Mormon.Do modern Mormons still really believe they are prophesized to take over the world and are operating on a plan of action to make that happen? If so, can you give me some examples?

[renaedawn 1]

Since nobody seems to know the answers to my questions (and thanks a lot for that you slackers. How am I supposed to continue to be lazy if you won't tell me what to believe?) I went to Mitt Romney Wiki page and found these items under political and personal beliefs. I'm not saying whether each point makes me more likely or less likely to vote for him, but rather just that this is a cliff notes version of where Mitt Romney stands for the next passerby who asks the same question I did (because I'm helpful like that, unlike you guys )

1. Romney says that he believes that Roe v. Wade should be overturned, that "abortion is the wrong choice except in cases of incest, rape, and to save the life of the mother," and that "states, through the democratic process, should determine their own abortion laws and not have them dictated by judicial mandate."
2. Romney has been a strong supporter of some gun control legislation, backing the Brady Bill, a five-day waiting period on gun sales, and a ban on certain assault weapons, and he still backs the ban on assault weapons.[96] Romney has also supported some legislation that was endorsed by the National Rifle Association and the Gun Owners' Action League.[97] Romney believes that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms, rather than merely protecting a right of states.[98]
3. When the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court ruled in favor of legalized same-sex marriage in 2003, Romney lobbied for a state constitutional amendment that would ban same-sex marriage but allow civil unions. Romney explained in 2005: "From day one I've opposed the move for same-sex marriage and its equivalent, civil unions....I am only supporting civil unions if gay marriage is the alternative." Romney continues to oppose both marriage and civil unions between people of the same sex.[
4. Romney supported the invasion of Iraq, and supports the "troop surge." Upon hearing the testimony of David Petraeus, Romney reemphasized his agreement with current policy in Iraq and has called for a "Surge of Support" for the military. Romney has called for increased military spending to at least 4 percent of the United States GDP and wishes to increase the size of the military by at least 100,000 troops.
5. Romney has focused on tax relief for "middle income Americans," and has advocated eliminating the capital gains tax for all those who earn less than $200,000 per year. Romney has also advocated eliminating the estate tax, signed a pledge to oppose "any and all efforts" to increase income taxes, and promises to control spending by Congress.
6. Romney welcomes increased legal immigration and supports giving "a biometrically-enabled and tamperproof card to non-citizens and ... a national database for non-citizens" in order to reduce illegal immigration.
7. Romney supports the death penalty, charter schools, and sentencing under the three strikes law.
8. Romney opposes the use of "torture"; however, he supports the limited use of "enhanced interrogation techniques," which he believes are not torture.
9. As part of his religious upbringing, Romney abstains from alcohol and smoking
10. He is a jogger, and likes Roy Orbison’s music. As for his dislikes, they include “eggplant, in any shape or form.”

So far I haven't found anything that indicates his religion has swayed his governance in any position he's held thusfar or that the Mormon church has interfered or influenced Romney in any way in his official positions.

[Vick07 0]

i think it can be historically demonstrated that the enlightenment and the various adoptions of human rights in the west all came about despite christianity, not because of it, but that's a pretty involved topic.anyway, the question was what is it about christianity that intrinsically makes our nation great.

Just saw this quote by Mark Twain and thought of that post....."The so-called Christian nations are the most enlightened and progressive...but in spite of their religion, not because of it. The Church has opposed every innovation and discovery from the day of Galileo down to our own time, when the use of anesthetic in childbirth was regarded as a sin because it avoided the biblical curse pronounced against Eve. And every step in astronomy and geology ever taken has been opposed by bigotry and superstition. The Greeks surpassed us in artistic culture and in architecture five hundred years before Christian religion was born."Mark Twain..Obviously he's arguing against what I said, but I thought he put it well, and it's hard to argue against.

[El Guapo 8]

Unless your religion is Mormonism.I think maybe that's they bigotry that Matt and Steve were trying to figure out?I got directed to this thread because I asked why people were suspicious of electing a Mormon to the most powerful office on Earth. What I'm hearing is ElGuapo espouse the views that caused me to ask the question in the first place but other than a few points that BalloonGuy gave, nobody is really telling me why they're so scared of a powerful Mormon.Do modern Mormons still really believe they are prophesized to take over the world and are operating on a plan of action to make that happen? If so, can you give me some examples?

Renae what I was trying to get at is Mormonism is more of a cult than a religion. And there is noway he is going to bullet point the fact that he believes that when he dies he will take over as God of his own planet and have 10,000 virgins at his disposal. (I never understood why religious zealots always want Virgins waiting for them, I would rather porn stars, but thats just me). Also it I do not care if someone believes in Mormonism, I will be there friend as I have my whole life, but it is different when we are choosing the leader of our country. I actually like a lot of what he has to say, and if he becomes president I'm not moving to Canada, but I will not vote for him. Well, actually I should ammend that, I won't vote for him in the primary, if he is up against Obama or Clinton (especially Clinton) I probably will vote for him.Things like the fact that the Mormon Church is the largest land owner in the United States scares me. Why does a Chuch need that much land?

[crowTrobot 2]

Renae what I was trying to get at is Mormonism is more of a cult than a religion. And there is noway he is going to bullet point the fact that he believes that when he dies he will take over as God of his own planet and have 10,000 virgins at his disposal.

huckabee believes evolution is false because the bible must be infalable no matter what the evidence is, a human soul somehow enteres a zygote consisting of a few cells at the moment of conception, and the creator of the entire universe hears and parses each and every one of his individual prayers. tacking a few virgins in the afterlife on to that is relatively trivial. in terms of craziness the difference between being an eternal resident in heaven under god in the afterlife, and becoming a god of your own planet in the afterlife is also trivial.all the candidates endorse crazy religious beliefs. which happens to be the "craziest" is irrelevant - what matters is whether and how much each candidate's crazy religious beliefs are likely to influence how they govern.

[El Guapo 8]

huckabee believes evolution is false because the bible must be infalable no matter what the evidence is, a human soul somehow enteres a zygote consisting of a few cells at the moment of conception, and the creator of the entire universe hears and parses each and every one of his individual prayers. tacking a few virgins in the afterlife on to that is relatively trivial.all the candidates have crazy religious belief. which happens to be the "craziest" is irrelevant - what matters is whether and how much each candidate's crazy religious beliefs are likely to influence how they govern.

This is exactly my point actually. I think Romney will be influenced by his religion. I guess we could have saved a lot of debate had I just said only that. But what fun woul that have been

[crowTrobot 2]

This is exactly my point actually. I think Romney will be influenced by his religion. I guess we could have saved a lot of debate had I just said only that. But what fun woul that have been

i believe i made the point earlier in this thread that because this is a nation of mostly christians he'd be the least likely to get away with it, while someone like huckabee could well set science back years and be supported by half the nation.

[El Guapo 8]

i believe i made the point earlier in this thread that because this is a christian nation he'd be the least likely to get away with it, while someone like huckabee could well set science back years and be supported by half the nation.

I am on the fence with Huckabee, he is down the list for me, from what I have read he is way right wing in his personal thought process but much like Romney recnetly has not shown that.

[jmkiser 0]

Things like the fact that all religions have so much land in the United States scares me. Why does a Church need that much land?

:club: :icon_dance: :icon_dance: :) :icon_dance: :D :D

[Vick07 0]

Yall seen this?

[jmkiser 0]

Yall seen this?

:D :D :)

[speedz99 145]

This is exactly my point actually. I think Romney will be influenced by his religion. I guess we could have saved a lot of debate had I just said only that. But what fun woul that have been

But that wouldn't save any debate because you still have absolutely no basis for believing that, other than your own preconceived notions based you experience with a very limited number of Mormons in one area of the country. The fact is that Romney has been in public service for a long time and there's no evidence that he has ever been influenced by his religion (aside from the generic Christian beliefs that come with it) when making policy.

i believe i made the point earlier in this thread that because this is a nation of mostly christians he'd be the least likely to get away with it, while someone like huckabee could well set science back years and be supported by half the nation.

Yup.

[HollywoodAFD 0]

After reading the book you recommended to me, there is no way in HELL I would vote for Mitt.Early on I was considering him because he is a great speaker, as are most people that brain wash, and he seemed to have a good agenda. Not a chance in HELL.And...if by some strange turn of events this guy does get elected... the US is done. I'm Canadian come morning time....eh.I've already been practicing my accent, eh.

[crowTrobot 2]

After reading the book you recommended to me, there is no way in HELL I would vote for Mitt.Early on I was considering him because he is a great speaker, as are most people that brain wash, and he seemed to have a good agenda. Not a chance in HELL.And...if by some strange turn of events this guy does get elected... the US is done. I'm Canadian come morning time....eh.I've already been practicing my accent, eh.

converted by "case for christ", and now this lol. ever think about researching the OTHER SIDE of issues before having such a strong reaction to what you read? ever consider the possibility that an author's main agenda might be to say whatever it takes to sell books, rather than to relate objective truth?for example there are tens of thousands of books offered and reviewed by customers on amazon, and godmakers is in the *bottom 1%* in terms of reviews. it may be the worst reviewed religious book on the entire site. maybe that should be a clue for you that there just possibly might be another side to what the author says in the book : )

[HollywoodAFD 0]

converted by "case for christ", and now this lol. ever think about researching the OTHER SIDE of issues before having such a strong reaction to what you read? ever consider the possibility that an author's main agenda might be to say whatever it takes to sell books, rather than to relate objective truth?for example there are tens of thousands of books offered and reviewed by customers on amazon, and godmakers is in the *bottom 1%* in terms of reviews. it may be the worst reviewed religious book on the entire site. maybe that should be a clue for you that there just possibly might be another side to what the author says in the book : )

Wow...you've got a crush on me dont ya...LOL.Actually I have researched "the OTHER SIDE" having minored in World Religion at the University of Texas. And yes I considered the authors agend but that doesn't take away from the facts. Have you read this book or the Case for Christ? You'll say yes but you really haven't. lol "godmakers is in the *bottom 1%* in terms of reviews" <-- completely false but thanks for playing.It's OK... don't be angry if someone has an opnion that differs from yours.

[Balloon guy 158]

converted by "case for christ", and now this lol. ever think about researching the OTHER SIDE of issues before having such a strong reaction to what you read? ever consider the possibility that an author's main agenda might be to say whatever it takes to sell books, rather than to relate objective truth?for example there are tens of thousands of books offered and reviewed by customers on amazon, and godmakers is in the *bottom 1%* in terms of reviews. it may be the worst reviewed religious book on the entire site. maybe that should be a clue for you that there just possibly might be another side to what the author says in the book : )

I consider this everytime I see Richard Dawkins name

[Balloon guy 158]

After reading the book you recommended to me, there is no way in HELL I would vote for Mitt.Early on I was considering him because he is a great speaker, as are most people that brain wash, and he seemed to have a good agenda. Not a chance in HELL.And...if by some strange turn of events this guy does get elected... the US is done. I'm Canadian come morning time....eh.I've already been practicing my accent, eh.

As wild as the core religion is, most mormons do not know these things, since only 10% of mormons are allowed in Temple where 80+% of the rituals are for the express purpose of raising the dead to convert them.(Which ties in well with Joe Smith getting excomunicated from the Presbyterian shurch for practising necromancy)But most mormons I know/meet have very surface knowledge of their religion, which makes it hard to argue with them.I am not 100% that Mitt is a guy that buys into this stuff, but like Tom Cruise, I'm sure the hiearcy would do all they could to grab onto the power of the seat. But what would they accomplish? I know they expect to rule America since Joe prophecied it, but could a president make it happen?

[HollywoodAFD 0]

I consider this everytime I see Richard Dawkins name

Ooooo... good one.