Should I Call Anyway?

[biff_goods 0]

early in the tournament. No readsI checked the flop to let this guy catch up. I c/c the turn to let him bet the river. And this happened. Do I call ever here? Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.comHero (t1470)SB (t1400)BB (t1560)UTG (Donkey A) (t1630)UTG+1 (t1390)MP1 (t1400)MP2 (t1470)MP3 (t1915)CO (t2765)Preflop: Hero is Button with Kc, Kh. UTG (Donkey A) raises to t70, 5 folds, Hero raises to t200, 2 folds, UTG (Donkey A) calls t130.Flop: (t430) 5d, Ks, 5c (2 players)Donkey A checks, Hero checks.Turn: (t430) As (2 players)Donkey A bets t430, Hero calls t430.River: (t1290) Ah (2 players)Donkey A bets t1000 (All-In), Hero ?Final Pot: t2290

[Sick Boy 0]

WowThat ace on the river is a pretty sick card for you. I would've been pulling my hair out! Hero has to fold. I think this is a well laid out trap that left the donkey only two outs in the deck. I'm almost certain he had an ace. Having said that, there is no way you could call here unless you've studied the way this guy plays and figured out that he's an idiot (which you hadn't). In my opinion this sounds like a monster hand gone bad and unfortunatly you've gotta lay it down.Its not all bad, you'd still have some chips to play around with after this beat.

[copernicus 0]

This hand has all of the elements needed for a slowplay, and Id play it the same way, you just got very unlucky that he may have caught you. If stacks were deeper I think a raise on the turn would be better but here you dont have that luxury.A general problem (and Sklanskyism 2,023) is that when you slowplay well, you convince your opponents they have the winning hand or that they can push you off a better hand than they have and they play it that way. It becomes very difficult to lay down a hand in the face of that aggression. I dont think thats really a problem in this hand.After your flop check what does he put you on if he doesnt have an A himself? An A that missed the flop, (AQ, maybe AJ since you raised) , a pair good enough to raise but that is afraid of the King (99-QQ), or a slowplay of AK, AA, KK. He is very unlikely to think that he has enough fold equity to bet two streets with an inferior hand, with 16 hands he MIGHT be able to push you off and 20 (quick count, dont sue me if im off!) where you have the nuts/near nuts.

[biff_goods 0]

Thank GodI felt like a complete moron for laying this down. If I am a moron at least I am not the only moron.

[XXEddie 0]

Shove the turn AINEC!!!!!Villian will call with most Aces since its very likely if you have an A, youll be chopping with AA55K. a five shoves the river, and most players wont continue to shove the river on a bluff.to answer you question 'Should I call anyways'answer; **** no

[copernicus 0]

Shove the turn AINEC!!!!!Villian will call with most Aces since its very likely if you have an A, youll be chopping with AA55K. a five shoves the river, and most players wont continue to shove the river on a bluff.to answer you question 'Should I call anyways'answer; **** no

A push on the turn chases the flush draw and if he has the Ace youre getting the money on the river anyway.

[pokerinc 0]

shove turn b/c missed flush draws can't call rivers anyway and as stated aces think they're chopping,oh hell, sick river gotta fold whateverouch hand

[copernicus 0]

shove turn b/c missed flush draws can't call rivers anyway and as stated aces think they're chopping,oh hell, sick river gotta fold whateverouch hand

But a flush draw cant call a turn push, and an Ace is always calling on the turn or river. You lose nothing by giving him a chance to flush.

[E-Cart6 0]

WOOOOOOW!!!!i played nearly the EXACT SAME hand....I only have the hand history in dutch so i can't really convert it(PS won't send me the english version for some reason), but you should be able to understand it.PokerStars Spel #12004100540:Toernooi #60503558Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level XVIII (6000/12000)11/09/2007 - 18:54:15 (ET)Tafel '60503558 338' 9-maxPlaats #5 is de buttonPlaats 1: Paerai (252121 in chips)Plaats 2: limboleon (1216637 in chips)Plaats 5: paddo1982 (55082 in chips)Plaats 6: boubou13 (817545 in chips)Plaats 7: E-Cart6 (578470 in chips)Plaats 8: lopak23 (272220 in chips)Paerai: zet de ante 600limboleon: zet de ante 600paddo1982: zet de ante 600boubou13: zet de ante 600E-Cart6: zet de ante 600lopak23: zet de ante 600boubou13: zet small blind 6000E-Cart6: zet big blind 12000*** GESLOTEN KAARTEN ***Gedeeld aan E-Cart6 [Kc Kh]lopak23 zei, "damn"lopak23: foldtPaerai: foldtlimboleon: callt 12000paddo1982: foldtboubou13: callt 6000E-Cart6: raiset 36000 naar 48000limboleon: callt 36000boubou13: foldt*** FLOP *** [6c 6h Kd]E-Cart6: checktlimboleon: checkt*** TURN *** [6c 6h Kd] [Ah]E-Cart6: checktlimboleon: bet 12000E-Cart6: callt 12000*** RIVER *** [6c 6h Kd Ah] [Ad]E-Cart6: bet 36000lopak23 zei, "hmmm turn river azen, nooit gezien"limboleon: raiset 36000 naar 72000E-Cart6: callt 36000*** SHOWDOWN ***limboleon: toont [Tc Ac] (een full house, Azen over Zessen)E-Cart6: toont [Kc Kh] (een full house, Koningen over Azen)limboleon won 279600 van potE-Cart6 zei, "tering river echt..."*** SAMENVATTING ***Totale pot 279600 | Rake 0Board [6c 6h Kd Ah Ad]Plaats 1: Paerai foldde voor de Flop (bette niet)Plaats 2: limboleon toonde [Tc Ac] en won (279600) met een full house, Azen over ZessenPlaats 5: paddo1982 (button) foldde voor de Flop (bette niet)Plaats 6: boubou13 (small blind) foldde voor de FlopPlaats 7: E-Cart6 (big blind) toonde [Kc Kh] en verloor met een full house, Koningen over AzenPlaats 8: lopak23 foldde voor de Flop (bette niet)The situation was a bit different, but the hand EXACTLY the same.I had been a huuuge chipleader when there were about 50 people left in the tournament.Now with about 12-13 people left i had been card dead for about 30-40 minutes, so i was very happy to finally get something.I obviously slowplayed this, hoping for him to hit something. When the turn came and he bet i was very sure he had the ace and a decent kicker.I remember thinking, can anything come up that gets me into trouble, in other words should i slowplay? Only an ace would give him the best hand and i thought the odds were really small, so i slowplayed it.Unfortunately the ace did came up and i knew i was screwed. I still had a big stack left though if i'd call and out of frustration(maybe 2nd decent hand in 30-40 min), i did make the call, but i knew he had the ace. This hand probably cost me the tournament though i did end up finishing 3rd. This guy ended 5th actually.So yeah it was a good laydown, even being a donk, he must've had the ace. You had <1% chance to lose the hand at the flop, just like me, but unfortunately he made runner runner full house and u made a great laydown.

[trystero 0]

Given pf action, shoving the turn screams monster (or at least AK).I like how you played this, just unbelievably unlucky

[NEtwowilldo 0]

If he is a donkey like you say, he will call on the turn with an ace or a flush draw.Shove turn and stop slowplaying, its bad for you.

[TravisG 0]

If he is a donkey like you say, he will call on the turn with an ace or a flush draw.Shove turn and stop slowplaying, its bad for you.

i think slowplaying here is absolutely not wrong. especially because he has position on the donkey. he's just got very unlucky and i think in future boards to the turn like this, he will make plenty more money with slowplaying it until the end. what happened to him did not happen because he played wrong, it was just pure bad luck. it's similar to shoving on the flop with the best hand by bar and getting beat by runner runner.

[NEtwowilldo 0]

i think slowplaying here is absolutely not wrong. especially because he has position on the donkey. he's just got very unlucky and i think in future boards to the turn like this, he will make plenty more money with slowplaying it until the end. what happened to him did not happen because he played wrong, it was just pure bad luck. it's similar to shoving on the flop with the best hand by bar and getting beat by runner runner.

Slowplaying on the flop is ok, but on the turn, he obviously likes his hand, so at least make a small raise, and if he folds then he had nothing anyways. On the turn he has 1000 left behind after the 430 bet, if you raise him 500 more I dont think he's going anywhere, and by this point he'll see that he has to play for his whole stack and will likely fold if he has absolutely nothing (which isnt likely) or just go all in. Just get the money in when you have the best hand. Letting him catch up a little is ok, but not all the way.

[TravisG 0]

Slowplaying on the flop is ok, but on the turn, he obviously likes his hand, so at least make a small raise, and if he folds then he had nothing anyways. On the turn he has 1000 left behind after the 430 bet, if you raise him 500 more I dont think he's going anywhere, and by this point he'll see that he has to play for his whole stack and will likely fold if he has absolutely nothing (which isnt likely) or just go all in. Just get the money in when you have the best hand. Letting him catch up a little is ok, but not all the way.

oh yeah i forgot to mention that. i would make a small raise (maybe simple 2x raise). then again, with that stack sizes, if the donkey was really just representing the ace (or if he has 77 88 99 TT JJ or whatever) (which can and will happen in donkaments some times [you see people shoving in the end with KQ]) he might get afraid and fold. that way i give him the opportunity to bloffshove his last money on the river.

[copernicus 0]

Slowplaying on the flop is ok, but on the turn, he obviously likes his hand, so at least make a small raise, and if he folds then he had nothing anyways. On the turn he has 1000 left behind after the 430 bet, if you raise him 500 more I dont think he's going anywhere, and by this point he'll see that he has to play for his whole stack and will likely fold if he has absolutely nothing (which isnt likely) or just go all in. Just get the money in when you have the best hand. Letting him catch up a little is ok, but not all the way.

If he will call on the turn or the river 100% of the time because he has an A or he will fold on the turn or the river 100% of the time because he has garbage it doesnt matter when you put him all in. If he will fold to a push on the turn even 10% of the time because he has a flush draw, fold if he misses the river, call if he makes his flush, then your EV for for pushing the turn is860*(.1+.9*.82) + 1860*.18*.9 = 1022.If you wait till the river to push and he will call or fold depending on whether he makes it is 860*(.82)+1860*.18 = 1040.The better player he is, the more likely he is to fold to the turn push, and the better it is to wait until the river to push.and that doesnt even include the EV for getting away from this hand when the Ace hits.Pushing the turn can never be right in this hand unless you can get him to fold an A on the turn , and if you do the math there its still -EV.