Aa, Turn Decision

[danc1984 0]

Hey guys, this is actually the first hand that I have posted and unfortunately I have lost the hh so I am going to have to do it manually by memory.Full Tilt Poker. 0.15/0.30 NLHE DeepStack 6max.Effective Stack Sizes:Villain $45Hero coversRead on villain - I have only been at the table for a few orbits and he had not really caught my attention as of yet. My Poker Office does not work on my laptop so unfortunately no numbers.Hero is MP1 and is dealt AdAc and raises to $1.10CO (villain) calls, SB calls, BB calls.Flop ($4.40) 4s 6s 4hHero bets $4, villain calls, blinds fold.Turn ($12.40) 6cHero checks, villain bets $13, Hero...?I would like comments on:1) My turn check;2) What I should do here. He has about $27 behind after he bets $13 here on the turn. Also, I know not to read into timing tells online too much, but he like insta-bet $13, I think he may have just quickly tapped pot and bet it.Flame away, I can take it. Especially on the turn check, but please do not just say 'bet turn', also please give advice on my decision after his bet. Again, sorry if this did not follow hand posting giudelines, I will make sure not to lose the hh in the future. Thanks.

[3A 0]

I would be putting villian on a smaller pocket pair, and laying the hammer down thinking hes ahead, if he thougth he was ahead he doesnt want to let you draw to AK cheap although he is probably hoping you call with an ace thinking you might split. there are only 2 hands in his range I could worry about and that is A6 and A4 suited so exactly 2 hands and as its not possible to have any of those aside from Ace of hearts and 6 of hearts. It is possible for him to have 6/5 6/7 and maybe 6/8 suited, but I really don't put him on that range calling preflop for 3 2/3 xBB.I would most likely jam the turn, maybe a leak. Although I sincerely think he put you on AK and missed to his lower pocket pair.

[Scott3705 0]

I like betting the turn. (know you didn't want to hear that.)With the str8 and flush draw I'd say:If you're against a habitual bet the pot user, then maybe you can just C/C turn and re-evaluate river. If you're against a guy who bets between 1/2 pot to full pot, I'd say you get it in now since he's more likely on a missed draw.

[danc1984 0]

I like betting the turn. (know you didn't want to hear that.)With the str8 and flush draw I'd say:If you're against a habitual bet the pot user, then maybe you can just C/C turn and re-evaluate river. If you're against a guy who bets between 1/2 pot to full pot, I'd say you get it in now since he's more likely on a missed draw.

Its not that I don't want to hear it, its just that i was totally lost as what to do on the turn here. I just sat there looking at the screen saying, I don't know what to do here, so I guess I just checked almost by default. I wanted to hear what everyone else thought I should do and why.In relation to his tendencies, unfortunately I have no idea. Some ppl do just bet pot everytime they bet whilst for others this could, as you say, represent a draw.

[Scott3705 0]

Its not that I don't want to hear it, its just that i was totally lost as what to do on the turn here. I just sat there looking at the screen saying, I don't know what to do here, so I guess I just checked almost by default. I wanted to hear what everyone else thought I should do and why.In relation to his tendencies, unfortunately I have no idea. Some ppl do just bet pot everytime they bet whilst for others this could, as you say, represent a draw.

Well i bet the turn just because I envision a number of scenarios that I'm going to face two bets c/cing. Villian bets to protect his hand, realizes he's beat but that we're weak and tries to bluff river. Villian has a 6 and we're in bad shape. Draws hit and villian bluffs those, etc. I'd rather bet/fold against a player that I don't know their tendencies to make the hand play easier then start calling off chips with no idea where I am.I generally reserve C/C lines for river decisions against unknowns and turn and river against known aggressive players that I can put a fairly good range on.

[danc1984 0]

Well i bet the turn just because I envision a number of scenarios that I'm going to face two bets c/cing. Villian bets to protect his hand, realizes he's beat but that we're weak and tries to bluff river. Villian has a 6 and we're in bad shape. Draws hit and villian bluffs those, etc. I'd rather bet/fold against a player that I don't know their tendencies to make the hand play easier then start calling off chips with no idea where I am.I generally reserve C/C lines for river decisions against unknowns and turn and river against known aggressive players that I can put a fairly good range on.

These are fair comments. I agree that I hate a c/c line for the turn and river against an unknown here and, I will be honest, I had no idea of what his range was here on the turn.What line would you have taken? Bet $10 and fold to a shove?

[Scott3705 0]

Probably fold to the push. If smooth called, probably c/f the river. (C/F as I doubt he'll value bet against ace high with a smaller pair).

[mtdesmoines 3]

Hero is MP1 and is dealt AdAc and raises to $1.10CO (villain) calls, SB calls, BB calls.Flop ($4.40) 4s 6s 4hHero bets $4, villain calls, blinds fold.Turn ($12.40) 6cHero checks, villain bets $13, Hero...?I would like comments on:1) My turn check;2) What I should do here. He has about $27 behind after he bets $13 here on the turn. Also, I know not to read into timing tells online too much, but he like insta-bet $13, I think he may have just quickly tapped pot and bet it.Flame away, I can take it. Especially on the turn check, but please do not just say 'bet turn', also please give advice on my decision after his bet. Again, sorry if this did not follow hand posting giudelines, I will make sure not to lose the hh in the future. Thanks.

I like all of it. can't conceive of villain having a 4 or 6 here unless it's a connector PF call. If so, oh well. Lots of PPs and even an A will do this. I call and shove river.

[danc1984 0]

I like all of it. can't conceive of villain having a 4 or 6 here unless it's a connector PF call. If so, oh well. Lots of PPs and even an A will do this. I call and shove river.

Do you shove the river or check call it again?

[mtdesmoines 3]

Do you shove the river or check call it again?

If I know villain will bet, I like a check/call/shove. If not, then I bet.

[danc1984 0]

If I know villain will bet, I like a check/call/shove. If not, then I bet.

After the turn card fell my thinking was "hes not calling with anything I beat". What can we expect him to call the river with here that I am ahead of? Surely he will only call with a 6 or a 4? How much of his range are made up by mid-pocket pairs? At the time I thought only a very small percentage. It just doesn't seem like a bet 77/88/99 would make. What do you guys think?

[mtdesmoines 3]

After the turn card fell my thinking was "hes not calling with anything I beat". What can we expect him to call the river with here that I am ahead of? Surely he will only call with a 6 or a 4? How much of his range are made up by mid-pocket pairs? At the time I thought only a very small percentage. It just doesn't seem like a bet 77/88/99 would make. What do you guys think?

KK QQJJTT889977AKAQAJAT--------------------223355All make this play. Those above the line because they think they might be good. Those below the line because they're pissed.

[danc1984 0]

Ok so I called the turn bet and the river came the 5c.Hero checks, villain shoves for his last $27.i have to call here right?

[mtdesmoines 3]

Ok so I called the turn bet and the river came the 5c.Hero checks, villain shoves for his last $27.i have to call here right?

Sure. Villain wasn't betting a gutter, a flush draw didn't get there and the same things still apply that we said before.

[Scott3705 0]

Sure. Villain wasn't betting a gutter, a flush draw didn't get there and the same things still apply that we said before.

Your range doesn't have a ton of air and air is the only thing that needs to bet the river. This is awful spewing against anything but the most retarded of players.

[danc1984 0]

Your range doesn't have a ton of air and air is the only thing that needs to bet the river. This is awful spewing against anything but the most retarded of players.

So Scott are you folding to his river push?

[NoBBiR 0]

STOP PLAYING POCKET ACES. FOLD OR SHOVE PREFLOP. OMFG.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Your range doesn't have a ton of air and air is the only thing that needs to bet the river. This is awful spewing against anything but the most retarded of players.

?Really?

[Temporary Nuts 1]

STOP PLAYING POCKET ACES. FOLD OR SHOVE PREFLOP. OMFG.

Glad to know your standard raising range doesn't include aces

[Scott3705 0]

?Really?

You have so many more small pairs that are happy to get to showdown here.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Sure. Villain wasn't betting a gutter, a flush draw didn't get there and the same things still apply that we said before.

Tell me one hand you beat other than a busted flush draw?FWIW, I like leading the turn and folding to his raise unless we have reads/history to suggest doing otherwise. If I'm c/cing the turn then I think that you have to c/f most rivers. He has a full house here VERY often.mtdesmoines - how can you not logically think he has a 4 or a 6 here. suited connectors play VERY well in deep stacked situations and I'd expect to see him turn over a hand like 34, 45, 56, 67, or 68 a vast majority of the time here.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Your range doesn't have a ton of air and air is the only thing that needs to bet the river. This is awful spewing against anything but the most retarded of players.

This is 100% true. After we flat call the turn, we have a flush draw (maybe) or we have a pair bigger than the board. That's about it. Once the river kinda bricks off there and we check, he's not gonna be betting middle pairs becuase he can beat the chunk of our range that was drawing and most players aren't clever enough to realize that we might have a big pair and turn their middle pair into a bluff, figuring that we can't call.

[aasurfer 0]

Hey guys, this is actually the first hand that I have posted and unfortunately I have lost the hh so I am going to have to do it manually by memory.Full Tilt Poker. 0.15/0.30 NLHE DeepStack 6max.Effective Stack Sizes:Villain $45Hero coversRead on villain - I have only been at the table for a few orbits and he had not really caught my attention as of yet. My Poker Office does not work on my laptop so unfortunately no numbers.Hero is MP1 and is dealt AdAc and raises to $1.10CO (villain) calls, SB calls, BB calls.Flop ($4.40) 4s 6s 4hHero bets $4, villain calls, blinds fold.Turn ($12.40) 6cHero checks, villain bets $13, Hero...?I would like comments on:1) My turn check;2) What I should do here. He has about $27 behind after he bets $13 here on the turn. Also, I know not to read into timing tells online too much, but he like insta-bet $13, I think he may have just quickly tapped pot and bet it.Flame away, I can take it. Especially on the turn check, but please do not just say 'bet turn', also please give advice on my decision after his bet. Again, sorry if this did not follow hand posting giudelines, I will make sure not to lose the hh in the future. Thanks.

honestly, i love the turn check. i believe villain is betting either ace high, or his pocket pair as demoines suggested thinking hero has AK high or something similar. it's a perfect situation to get him to donk off off some chips to you... if he's got a 6 or 4 that sucks but with my money i'll take my chances and you should too. there are plenty of players out there willing to put all their money in with a pocket pair above 6

[danc1984 0]

Thanks for all the feedback guys its much appreciated.FWIW, I think i agree the most with Acid and Scott's analysis. I think a bet-fold line of about $10 on the turn would have been optimal. Also, once I c/c the turn here he is checking behind on the river with a very large percentage of his range. I guess the thing that hit me in the hand was on the turn I just asked myself if this guy was really good enough to play a boat this fast on the turn? But anyway, thanks for the responses. If I had it again I would probably betfold the turn although I don't hate the turn check, I just hate the spot that it put me in. As played, I think the river is probably a fold, I don't think an out and out bluff is a large enough part of his range and that is all that i beat.Thanks all for replies.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Read on villain - I have only been at the table for a few orbits and he had not really caught my attention as of yet. My Poker Office does not work on my laptop so unfortunately no numbers.Hero is MP1 and is dealt AdAc and raises to $1.10CO (villain) calls, SB calls, BB calls.Flop ($4.40) 4s 6s 4hHero bets $4, villain calls, blinds fold.Turn ($12.40) 6cHero checks, villain bets $13, Hero...?I would like comments on:1) My turn check;2) What I should do here. He has about $27 behind after he bets $13 here on the turn. Also, I know not to read into timing tells online too much, but he like insta-bet $13, I think he may have just quickly tapped pot and bet it.

mtdesmoines - how can you not logically think he has a 4 or a 6 here. suited connectors play VERY well in deep stacked situations and I'd expect to see him turn over a hand like 34, 45, 56, 67, or 68 a vast majority of the time here.

I don't know ... when I read the OP comments that said he hadn't done anything spectacular or "caught his attention yet," it made me think a few things. First, villains like this probably have pretty narrow calling ranges of 4.5x BB raises, even when playing back from the CO. To me, that includes 89, 9T, MAYBE 78, etc, but probably not as low as a 67, 56, or a 45. That's getting into MY range (sometimes, anyway) and people call me wildly loose -- and I do things that catch people's attention. SO I'm guessing that if he's not active, he's trolling the DS table, trying to hit someone with a cooler. In the range I provided, I put him somewhere around TT JJ. Second thing. He calls the flop PSB when the FOURS are paired; the paired 6's don't come until the turn. Again, I can't imagine someone I classify as belonging in the "tighter" ranges as holding trip 4's AND THEN smooth calling them into a PF raiser. And I don't see them hanging tight to their 6 with a PF raiser and PSB on the flop. They were shooting for a different kind of hand than pairing their 6 ... as they should.So what happens next? The board double pairs and we check. Villain could be in the middle PP range and sees our check as a white flag sent up by a big ace, or a smaller PP, flush draw, or whatever. So rather than see a bad card hit the river, he panics and tries to bet us off our no pair/whatever hand that we just repped. A made hand here -- like a boat -- would rarely fastplay ... you'd be MUCH more likely to see a $5 bet here from a boat than this overbet. This likely ain't Roberts we're dealing with ... So villain wants the hand shut down ... ... ... ... ... why? He doesn't want to see a river. He doesn't want a flush/straight/over to hit without exacting a price. Because he believes he's ahead. Because we checked to him on the turn.

Thanks for all the feedback guys its much appreciated. FWIW, I think i agree the most with Acid and Scott's analysis. I think a bet-fold line of about $10 on the turn would have been optimal. Also, once I c/c the turn here he is checking behind on the river with a very large percentage of his range. I guess the thing that hit me in the hand was on the turn I just asked myself if this guy was really good enough to play a boat this fast on the turn? But anyway, thanks for the responses. If I had it again I would probably betfold the turn although I don't hate the turn check, I just hate the spot that it put me in. As played, I think the river is probably a fold, I don't think an out and out bluff is a large enough part of his range and that is all that i beat. Thanks all for replies.

So I take it we don't have a result, other than you mucked on the turn?