River Decision With Kings

[Roberts2003 0]

effective stacks are 100Kyou Open UTG with KK to $1800. folded around to the BB who has a very tight image. He reraises to $7000. You decide to flat call.(Pot-$15,100)Flop-QJ6 rainbow. the player checks. whats his hand range? bet or check? you decide to check.(Pot-$15,100)Turn-8Board is now Q J 6 8 with 2 diamonds. The tight player now bets out $17,000. Fold, Call, or Raise? You decide to call.(Pot-$49,100)River-6Board is now Q J 6 8 6. Pot is $49,100. The tight player bets out $40,000. Call, fold, or shove?honestly, this isnt a joke. what do people do in this hand? all 4 rounds of betting, tell what you would do. i no this hand was on HSP and all that, but i still think its a very interesting hand.

[bdc30 0]

Reraise preflop to $25k. Puke if shoved in to.

[Scott3705 0]

See, I really didn't understand how everyone got on Mike about not calling with KK here. (Disregarding the 2/7 game). You can't beat anything in Phil's reraising range at the flop. Let alone the two streets of betting that phil played like a set. I check the flopFold the turn. Never see the river.

[Acid_Knight 2]

It's really simple. Hellmuth and Matusow play a ton together. Matusow knows that Hellmuth is tight for the most part. He even said during the hand that Hellmuth almost never makes that big river bet without a hand. Hellmuth's hand looks 100% like a set of Qs here. Matusow can't beat it, so he folds since all he beats is a bluff anyway. There is no hand that Matusow beats that Hellmuth value bets in this manner.

[NoBBiR 0]

See, I really didn't understand how everyone got on Mike about not calling with KK here. (Disregarding the 2/7 game). You can't beat anything in Phil's reraising range at the flop. Let alone the two streets of betting that phil played like a set. I check the flopFold the turn. Never see the river.

What I don't understand is why Matusow does not reraise preflop. If the guy has aces the first hand of the night, then it would have been a bad night anyway. They're playing the 2/7 game, and Matusow said he was thinking about it, but he wasn't. Phil played the hand exactly like he would have played a set, but it's stupid to put him on a set because he played it exactly like he would have played a set against someone he knows. I know Phil is a tournament moron, but he's smart enough not to basically tell Mike he has a set.Also the fact that Matusow was only playing 100,000 for the whole night and telling people about it influences the hand. If you're only on one bullet, don't tell everybody.

[Jordan 1]

lol roberts i thought u sat in tghe 3/6 game.lololo- Jordan

[Temporary Nuts 1]

This hand makes me mad because of all the people who think Mike's an idiot for folding.

[Acid_Knight 2]

lol roberts i thought u sat in tghe 3/6 game.lololo- Jordan

I thought that too when I saw he posted this in 2+2.

[Acid_Knight 2]

What I don't understand is why Matusow does not reraise preflop. If the guy has aces the first hand of the night, then it would have been a bad night anyway. They're playing the 2/7 game, and Matusow said he was thinking about it, but he wasn't. Phil played the hand exactly like he would have played a set, but it's stupid to put him on a set because he played it exactly like he would have played a set against someone he knows. I know Phil is a tournament moron, but he's smart enough not to basically tell Mike he has a set.Also the fact that Matusow was only playing 100,000 for the whole night and telling people about it influences the hand. If you're only on one bullet, don't tell everybody.

He doesn't reraise preflop becuase:He raised UTG and Phil is tight and reraised him from OOP in the blinds, so he's seeing a flop firstHis hand is a little disguised becuase he didn't reraiseJust becuase Phil plays the hand in an apprently straightforward manner (if he had a set) doesn't mean that he can't have a set or won't play a set this way. It's not that hard, it's like:I have a strong hand and he think's I'll be tricky so being straightforward is actually being tricky.

[Naismith 0]

Okay, I asked Roberts not to say it, but you'll all figure it out anyway. This was a hand I played last night. I had KK. I folded, but was concerned about it. Roberts convinced me it was a standard fold, probably without even calling the turn bet. I agreed with him. Glad I saved that river 40k.

[Roberts2003 0]

Okay, I asked Roberts not to say it, but you'll all figure it out anyway. This was a hand I played last night. I had KK. I folded, but was concerned about it. Roberts convinced me it was a standard fold, probably without even calling the turn bet. I agreed with him. Glad I saved that river 40k.

lolllllllllllllllllyeah since im i am all about making folds right

[mtdesmoines 3]

effective stacks are 100Kyou Open UTG with KK to $1800. folded around to the BB who has a very tight image. He reraises to $7000. You decide to flat call.I think this is a mistake WHEN YOU'RE PLAYING WITH ONE BULLET. I think you have to define your hand right here, because if you see a flop here with a scared stack, you'll likely fold to pressure, which we've seen already, so we KNOW more is coming. You HAVE to re-raise hard here -- to around $20K, and I guess you fold to a shove if you only have $100K to play with in this game.(Pot-$15,100)Flop-QJ6 rainbow. the player checks. whats his hand range? bet or check? you decide to check.(Pot-$15,100)Another bad decision. I think you HAVE to bet here. It's not like we were set-mining with our KK. Bet $12,000 and fold to a push.Turn-8Board is now Q J 6 8 with 2 diamonds. The tight player now bets out $17,000. Fold, Call, or Raise? You decide to call.(Pot-$49,100)I think this is so weak, and again, shows we're playing scared money; we won't bet, but we call? He's playing this hand like a 3/6 limit player who jumped to 5/10River-6Board is now Q J 6 8 6. Pot is $49,100. The tight player bets out $40,000. Call, fold, or shove?I think if we called all the bets up to here, nothing changes and we call this one, too. honestly, this isnt a joke. what do people do in this hand? all 4 rounds of betting, tell what you would do. i KnoW this hand was on HSP and all that, but i still think its a very interesting hand.

Reraise preflop to $25k. Puke if shoved in to.

I think this is a little high; I said around $20K.

See, I really didn't understand how everyone got on Mike about not calling with KK here. (Disregarding the 2/7 game). You can't beat anything in Phil's reraising range at the flop. Let alone the two streets of betting that phil played like a set. I check the flopFold the turn. Never see the river.

I think if we play preflop differently, the entire script of this hand changes. This is scared play, and I understand it, but it's scared play.

It's really simple. Hellmuth and Matusow play a ton together. Matusow knows that Hellmuth is tight for the most part. He even said during the hand that Hellmuth almost never makes that big river bet without a hand. Hellmuth's hand looks 100% like a set of Qs here. Matusow can't beat it, so he folds since all he beats is a bluff anyway. There is no hand that Matusow beats that Hellmuth value bets in this manner.

We're not sure because we didn't define by re-raising PF.

Also the fact that Matusow was only playing 100,000 for the whole night and telling people about it influences the hand. If you're only on one bullet, don't tell everybody.

Exactly.

lol roberts i thought u sat in tghe 3/6 game.lololo- Jordan

Add some zeeeeros.

This hand makes me mad because of all the people who think Mike's an idiot for folding.

I don't think he was an idiot, but he got himself stuck in a bad spot because of his misplay PF.

He doesn't reraise preflop becuase:He raised UTG and Phil is tight and reraised him from OOP in the blinds, so he's seeing a flop firstHis hand is a little disguised becuase he didn't reraiseJust becuase Phil plays the hand in an apprently straightforward manner (if he had a set) doesn't mean that he can't have a set or won't play a set this way. It's not that hard, it's like:I have a strong hand and he think's I'll be tricky so being straightforward is actually being tricky.

I understand that play, but if you have one bullet, you need to play this as straightforward as possible. If it's AA, or if you get run down, so be it. But you can't be this weak with one bullet in play. It's just giving away money. Anyone want to PM me with the results, since I didn't see this?

[Acid_Knight 2]

Anyone want to PM me with the results, since I didn't see this?

Most of your advice here seems bad. He doesn't need to reraise preflop. He doesn't need to bet the flop since it's an absolutely terrible flop for him and he's WWWWWWWA or WWWWWWWWWWWB after the flop. The same applies to the turn and river. I really like the way he played the hand. He correctly figured that calling on the river would be burning up money since he only beats a bluff - a bluff that reraised preflop OOP against an UTG raiser and then played the hand 100% like a set the rest of the way.How do you not figure out that Matusow folds here? Also, since they had the 72o prop going, that's of course what Hellmuth had.

[Scott3705 0]

Most of your advice here seems bad. He doesn't need to reraise preflop. He doesn't need to bet the flop since it's an absolutely terrible flop for him and he's WWWWWWWA or WWWWWWWWWWWB after the flop. The same applies to the turn and river. I really like the way he played the hand. He correctly figured that calling on the river would be burning up money since he only beats a bluff - a bluff that reraised preflop OOP against an UTG raiser and then played the hand 100% like a set the rest of the way.How do you not figure out that Matusow folds here? Also, since they had the 72o prop going, that's of course what Hellmuth had.

I don't think Matasow's scared, I think he's playing ranges. I think he would have been ok getting a lot of chips in at the flop and willing to accept a beat to AA except he got the 2nd worst flop possible for KK. Against phil's range (not considering the 27 prop) he's absolutely crushed at the flop.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I don't think Matasow's scared, I think he's playing ranges.

QFT

[tskillz187 0]

I think he would have been ok getting a lot of chips in at the flop and willing to accept a beat to AA except he got the 2nd worst flop possible for KK.

2nd worst flop? This puppy is the absolute worstttttt. If an A came it's an easier laydown andddddd you have 6 outs if Hellmuth tries to slow play his "set."

[mtdesmoines 3]

Most of your advice here seems bad. Thanks. I mean that. *He doesn't need to reraise preflop. Playing scared money, he most definitely does. He doesn't need to bet the flop since it's an absolutely terrible flop for him and he's WWWWWWWA or WWWWWWWWWWWB after the flop. Really? If we're WWWWWWWA, let's get some money in and shut the door to the river bluff. If we're WWWWWWWWWWWB, let's find out ON THE FLOP. I guarantee it's the cheapest place to find out where you are in every hand. We gave up an extra turn bet and the entire pot on the river out of scared play.The same applies to the turn and river. I really like the way he played the hand. He correctly figured that calling on the river would be burning up money since he only beats a bluff - a bluff that reraised preflop OOP against an UTG raiser and then played the hand 100% like a set the rest of the way. I hate his play. Besides, if you're not calling the river, why call the turn? That's burning money. It's awful play. We lose money here because we give up the initiative on every street. EVERY street. He gave up a couple nice new cars because of scared play.How do you not figure out that Matusow folds here? Jesus, I KNOW he folds. I wanted to know what Helmuth hadAlso, since they had the 72o prop going, that's of course what Hellmuth had.* I win because I played the hand properly. Ultimately, the lesson here is don't go broke. When you've got one bullet, this is how you play. Badly.

[Acid_Knight 2]

WA/WB is usually a situation where betting isn't in your best interest. Keep the pot small becuase the whole idea is that by betting, the hands that you're crushing will simply fold and the ones that crush you stick around in what has become a bloated pot.Why do you keep saying "scared money?" Yeah, he brought one bullet. It's not his last $100K and I'm sure he could borrow at the table.Tell me one single hand here that Hellmuth has that isn't a bluff that Mike can beat. Calling the turn is fine becuase by checking the flop, you're inviting him to bet the turn. Hellmuth is OOP, so he's showing a lot of strength. This isn't 1/2 NL. Different logic applies. You can most certainly call one street and fold the next even though the cards change nothing. He's getting information as the hand goes on. By the river, he feels that he has enough info to know he's beaten.You say that you win becuase you play the hand properly. You win a small pot by playing like you advocate since you're beating a bluff, which you made him fold anyway. If he has what he's representing, you just bloat the amount that you lose. How is this a good play?

[Scott3705 0]

2nd worst flop? This puppy is the absolute worstttttt. If an A came it's an easier laydown andddddd you have 6 outs if Hellmuth tries to slow play his "set."

Actually you're probably right. I was thinking QJ10, but you're probably right.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Actually you're probably right. I was thinking QJ10, but you're probably right.

Yeah, all of the flops like QJT, JT9 and those kind where there are straights possible are terrible. This one is almost as bad becuase it's not AS coordinated, but just as scary since Hellmuth's range here is usually almost always something like TT+/AK so Matusow can't be happy obviously.

[NoBBiR 0]

He doesn't reraise preflop becuase:He raised UTG and Phil is tight and reraised him from OOP in the blinds, so he's seeing a flop firstHis hand is a little disguised becuase he didn't reraiseJust becuase Phil plays the hand in an apprently straightforward manner (if he had a set) doesn't mean that he can't have a set or won't play a set this way. It's not that hard, it's like:I have a strong hand and he think's I'll be tricky so being straightforward is actually being tricky.

Yeah but this is Phil Hellmuth. He might be able to think like that if his brain didn't overheat all of the time.The guy doesn't even know the odds on really simple hands, he's really a disgrace.

WA/WB is usually a situation where betting isn't in your best interest. Keep the pot small becuase the whole idea is that by betting, the hands that you're crushing will simply fold and the ones that crush you stick around in what has become a bloated pot.Why do you keep saying "scared money?" Yeah, he brought one bullet. It's not his last $100K and I'm sure he could borrow at the table.Tell me one single hand here that Hellmuth has that isn't a bluff that Mike can beat. Calling the turn is fine becuase by checking the flop, you're inviting him to bet the turn. Hellmuth is OOP, so he's showing a lot of strength. This isn't 1/2 NL. Different logic applies. You can most certainly call one street and fold the next even though the cards change nothing. He's getting information as the hand goes on. By the river, he feels that he has enough info to know he's beaten.You say that you win becuase you play the hand properly. You win a small pot by playing like you advocate since you're beating a bluff, which you made him fold anyway. If he has what he's representing, you just bloat the amount that you lose. How is this a good play?

It actually is his last 100k, and probably isn't his to begin with, that's probably already one loan for the night. People loan him money so he can play in these games and be on TV. The guy is completely busto. He's really is scared money too - he even said last year on HSP3 that he had never played 300/600 before, and was very nervous. If he had one bullet, that just adds up for bad day.

[mtdesmoines 3]

WA/WB is usually a situation where betting isn't in your best interest. I might agree conceptually, but taking the initiative in this spot keeps us from getting bluffed on the river, or pouring in chips, calling on the turn and river. Keep the pot small becuase the whole idea is that by betting, the hands that you're crushing will simply fold and the ones that crush you stick around in what has become a bloated pot. OK, we fold the weak shit and take the $7,000. This is a bad flop, let's get the info now. The flop is the cheapest street in town because it gives us 75% of the information, but usually costs us around 20% of the total pot if the hand goes to the river.Why do you keep saying "scared money?" BECAUSEYeah, he brought one bullet. It's not his last $100K and I'm sure he could borrow at the table.Then why let everyone know you have one bullet?Tell me one single hand here that Hellmuth has that isn't a bluff that Mike can beat. AK AQ and assorted garbage/suited D at the turn. We know Helmust is tight in tourneys, but I think he broadens his range significantly in cash games. Calling the turn is fine becuase by checking the flop, you're inviting him to bet the turn.But we need to DECIDE if we're WB/WA here. Why call if we're WB? And if we are WA, why aren't WE betting? I understand WA/WB, but if you want to keep the pot small and not bloat it, you have to fold to the PSB on the turn, because you know Helmuth is firing a PSB again on the river He has to with a bluff, and he has to with a good hand. Either way, a turn bet is always followed by a river bet. Hellmuth is OOP, so he's showing a lot of strength. This isn't 1/2 NL. Different logic applies. You can most certainly call one street and fold the next even though the cards change nothing. Why? Seriously, why? He's getting information as the hand goes on.Absolutely, the flop check is huge info that he should have taken all the way to the river. Helmuth didn't want to bluff him with 72, he wanted to outflop him and beat him with it because of the prop bet. Helmuth mucks that 72 on the flop to a bet every time. Every time. And we don't have this discussion. By the river, he feels that he has enough info to know he's beaten.You say that you win becuase you play the hand properly. You win a small pot by playing like you advocate since you're beating a bluff, which you made him fold anyway. If he has what he's representing, you just bloat the amount that you lose. How is this a good play?Helmuth's play doesn't add up. A reraise that checks the flop to an aggressive player? I think bet/fold is the better play here. Matasow orphaned $100K because he misplayed every bet.orphaning $129,000 , losing $24,000 < losing $1,800 < winning the $7,000 pot < winning the $15,000 pot < winning the $129,000 pot

[mtdesmoines 3]

Yeah but this is Phil Hellmuth. He might be able to think like that if his brain didn't overheat all of the time.Absolutely Helmuth is capable of making this play, especially with the 72 prop bet and the flop check. He smelled fear emanating from Mike's soul. Honestly, Helmuth blows up similarly to Matasow, but differently in that the 72 prop bet just looms in his brain all night long. He wants to to be stroked as the best, so he makes this play like 30000000000000% of the time. The guy doesn't even know the odds on really simple hands, he's really a disgrace.LOLIt actually is his last 100k, and probably isn't his to begin with, that's probably already one loan for the night. People loan him money so he can play in these games and be on TV. The guy is completely busto. He's really is scared money too - he even said last year on HSP3 that he had never played 300/600 before, and was very nervous. If he had one bullet, that just adds up for bad day.I get the impression Mikey is poker-broke, but that his endorsements are bringing in money. It's just not enough to cover his chits and his, um, "lifestyle."

[Acid_Knight 2]

Sigh.Zach?I'm with you.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Sigh.Zach?I'm with you.

nm