Insane In The Sb Brain

[Royal_Tour 0]

ok. this was 1/2 NL live, and the table was loose and donkey infested. Like when i sat down, i was giggling at how bad everyone was, and how much money they were shoevling.I just sat down and played 2 handshero has 180. villain 1 covers,villain 2 covers.The 2 villains are ultra loose, and call stations. villain on the button has been making hero calls, and min raises like its goin out of style.hero is SB with KK (hero only played 1 rotation up until now)2 limps, c/o raises to 10, button calls 10. Hero raises to 35. folds around to c/o who calls, and button calls. (as expected. they played everyhand)flop is Kh, 7h, 4chero leads out 40... thoughts? little less than 1/2 pot. The 2 guys in question here have been shoveling any type of draw or hand they get.Here is where i'm torn. should i have bet the pot and left myself with 45, should i have checked? should i have shoveled the flop?

[Money022 0]

I would play this hand pretty straight forward with the flush draw out there. Bet 2/3 the pot and push the turn I guess. Or if you think it's possible to get called, just shove.

[nomad_monad 0]

with just a bit over the size of the pot left in your stack, i like either an open shovel or a CRAI if you're pretty sure one of them will bet. seems like if they'll shovel with any draw, they'd probably bet it as well except they might be more inclined to get involved if you initially show weakness. the dream scenario would have CO bet and button raise, which is a lot less likely if you bet. the nice thing about the CRAI is that if either of them puts out a reasonable sized bet, they are committed into calling your c/r push. anything besides a push or crai, it could easily go call-call with not enough chips left on the turn to do any sort of pricing. i think it might be worse to bet $40 here and risk getting flat called once or twice behind than to check and risk giving a free card.with the pot to stack ratio being 1:1.5, we really have to be looking for a way to commit ASAP. open push is the safest, c/r is probably second best way. betting less, we really risk committing ourselves on the flop without getting all of our chips in, and then possibly having to get our chips in behind on the turn.

[mtdesmoines 3]

CRAI

[NoSup4U 0]

CRAI

Mark

[tskillz187 0]

I either lead bigger or go for C/R. I lead for like $65-70, I think you bet $40 looking to get raised but it also sucks huge when you don't and got them both to call you with great odds. I don't hate it though. I like flopping top set, every option seems fun.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I probably push it to $40 preflop with the caller inbetween. You're betting about 1/3 of the pot on the flop which gives everyone 4-1 to see the next card and is a huge mistake. If they're calling stations, then just bet your damned hand and don't get tricky. Bet $75 on the flop and probably just shovel the turn. You're asking to get beaten in ridiculous ways when you make tiny little bets like that.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I probably push it to $40 preflop with the caller inbetween. You're betting about 1/3 of the pot on the flop which gives everyone 4-1 to see the next card and is a huge mistake. If they're calling stations, then just bet your damned hand and don't get tricky. Bet $75 on the flop and probably just shovel the turn. You're asking to get beaten in ridiculous ways when you make tiny little bets like that.

dude, the issue is i dont have much money compared to the pot. so if i bet 75 on the flop, my turn bet is going to be 75 also.So, whatever hand they hold that they can cvall 75 on the flop, they will call 75 on the turn just as quickly.i'm leaning more towards the CRAI now.I bet the 40 in hopes i would get raised, I thought for sure the button would take it as a weak c-bet and raise. He thought he was a hero at the table by playing every hand.

[Acid_Knight 2]

dude, the issue is i dont have much money compared to the pot. so if i bet 75 on the flop, my turn bet is going to be 75 also.So, whatever hand they hold that they can cvall 75 on the flop, they will call 75 on the turn just as quickly.i'm leaning more towards the CRAI now.I bet the 40 in hopes i would get raised, I thought for sure the button would take it as a weak c-bet and raise. He thought he was a hero at the table by playing every hand.

I saw your stack size. You still shouldn't be betting that little and giving them 4-1 becuase you're giving them great odds to outdraw you on the NEXT card without having to worry much about implied odds or anything. You imply that they're bad and are calling stations so, just bet strongly and let them make a mistake.

[cdannons 0]

You played this hand perfect. The reraise preflop was obviously right. So the questions is the flop bet. There are 2 very good reasons for betting. The first is that reraising preflop and then checking the flop is too suspicous, represented a hand preflop. The second is these guys are stationgs. Take what you can. Also, I think you bet a good amount. There is no reason to bet huge here. If they are willing to call a pot sized bet, there is a good chance you are going to be able to get all your chips in during the hand anyway. You can bet half the pot, which happens to be about 1/3 of your chips. This is perfect for working your chips in during the hand while maximizing your chances of getting called. Hell, maybe you'll get called all the way by both! If they both fold, then thats just too bad, you probably wern't getting any more from them anyway. Good play!

[David_Nicoson 1]

I'd raise more preflop.As played, I still bet a pot-committing amount on the flop. At least 85. If they're smart, they'll suspect that the rest is going in on the turn so a lot of numbers are pretty much equivalent to a push. I don't want a hard decision on the turn about whether or not to chase a boat draw.

[Lavitz 0]

Not going for CRAI unless I'm positive villains will semi bluff their draws in a 3 way raised pot when checked to. A lot of people will check to take a free card with a straight or flush draw when the pot is multiway. Just bet it out. Bet like 2/3 or half pot to induce a shove. If either has a hand like a gutshot they probably won't bet it out so your basically giving them free cards to pull ahead of you since they're not going to invest any money unless they hit anyways.

[Craigdog 0]

bet 2/3 of pot on the flop.... If they are as loose and as bad as you say you will get a call & can shove on the turn. $40 seems so low after your preflop re-raise that alarm bells would be going off in my head if I was one of the villians.

[gfdsa146 0]

You played this hand perfect. The reraise preflop was obviously right. So the questions is the flop bet. There are 2 very good reasons for betting. The first is that reraising preflop and then checking the flop is too suspicous, represented a hand preflop. The second is these guys are stationgs. Take what you can. Also, I think you bet a good amount. There is no reason to bet huge here. If they are willing to call a pot sized bet, there is a good chance you are going to be able to get all your chips in during the hand anyway. You can bet half the pot, which happens to be about 1/3 of your chips. This is perfect for working your chips in during the hand while maximizing your chances of getting called. Hell, maybe you'll get called all the way by both! If they both fold, then thats just too bad, you probably wern't getting any more from them anyway. Good play!

Sorry, but i think that the mini-bet on the flop was not right. So are you saying that its OK to bet pot on the flop, let the flush hit, then get all your money in - so when one of them flips over the 9hTh you throw your arms up and say "Oh well its a cooler, I had a set on the flop"? Nonsense!The two options would be shoveling and CRAI obviously. The option you choose would be read-dependant here i think. Shoveling depends on whether or not you think these guys are bad enough players such that they will not even notice the fact that you are overbetting the pot. If you think that the moment you shovel, they're gonna say to themselves "oh man i've got a flush draw, i dont care what the betting amount is, i'm gonna go all the way" then you dig that shovel into the table.But if you think that these guys have an ounce of skill in their arsenal, CRAI. If they're the least bit decent, then shoveling will alert them that you've got a made hand and that they're behind and then they'll dump their draw. CRAI at least will give them some chance to get their foot in the door, at which point you pull them all the way in.If one of them has 5h6h, then just yell RIGGED, Jesus Ferguson your cards at the dealer's eyeballs and walk out of the room.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Sorry, but i think that the mini-bet on the flop was not right. So are you saying that its OK to bet pot on the flop, let the flush hit, then get all your money in - so when one of them flips over the 9hTh you throw your arms up and say "Oh well its a cooler, I had a set on the flop"? Nonsense!The two options would be shoveling and CRAI obviously. The option you choose would be read-dependant here i think. Shoveling depends on whether or not you think these guys are bad enough players such that they will not even notice the fact that you are overbetting the pot. If you think that the moment you shovel, they're gonna say to themselves "oh man i've got a flush draw, i dont care what the betting amount is, i'm gonna go all the way" then you dig that shovel into the table.But if you think that these guys have an ounce of skill in their arsenal, CRAI. If they're the least bit decent, then shoveling will alert them that you've got a made hand and that they're behind and then they'll dump their draw. CRAI at least will give them some chance to get their foot in the door, at which point you pull them all the way in.If one of them has 5h6h, then just yell RIGGED, Jesus Ferguson your cards at the dealer's eyeballs and walk out of the room.

They have no skill. I wanted to make sure i get their chips in the middle in this hand. We cant sit here and say we need to bet bet bet because they might have a FD. we want them to have a FD. they are a 3-1 dog on the flop and almost a 6-1 dog on the turn if its not a heart.I bet 40 in hopes that if they have anything. anything at all I can shovel the turn and they will be committed. Now if a heart falls on the turn, am i at fault for only betting 40? we dont want to push anyone off their hand. But many of you will say, we want them to make the mistake by calling without correct odds. IMO who cares. We're not gonna get anything out of it if they call without correct odds. And any bet more than a 1/2 pot commits me to the pot anyways. Which also commits them if they do have a FD.The goal here is to get all my chips in th middle one way or another. If anyone of them has the case K, or a lower set, or a FD or even air with plans to steal the pot from me it doesnt matter. I have 90bb's and want max value on this hand.

[gfdsa146 0]

They have no skill. I wanted to make sure i get their chips in the middle in this hand. We cant sit here and say we need to bet bet bet because they might have a FD. 1. we want them to have a FD. they are a 3-1 dog on the flop and almost a 6-1 dog on the turn if its not a heart.I bet 40 in hopes that if they have anything. anything at all I can shovel the turn and they will be committed. Now if a heart falls on the turn, am i at fault for only betting 40? we dont want to push anyone off their hand. But many of you will say, we want them to make the mistake by calling without correct odds. 2. IMO who cares. We're not gonna get anything out of it if they call without correct odds. And any bet more than a 1/2 pot commits me to the pot anyways. Which also commits them if they do have a FD.The goal here is to get all my chips in th middle one way or another. If anyone of them has the case K, or a lower set, or a FD or even air with plans to steal the pot from me it doesnt matter. I have 90bb's and want max value on this hand.

1. I completely agree.2. Why?I think we've forgot something here. The 7 and 4 are relatively connected. Straight draws are possible here as well. Another possible draw they could have, another possibility for them to shovel.

[Royal_Tour 0]

1. I completely agree.2. Why?I think we've forgot something here. The 7 and 4 are relatively connected. Straight draws are possible here as well. Another possible draw they could have, another possibility for them to shovel.

they werent good enough to play suited connectors to a re-raise from position to stack me with implied odds.they were so bad that they played any face card that was suited, any ace. and any PP in this spot. I dont even think they could spell "straight"

[Acid_Knight 2]

We cant sit here and say we need to bet bet bet because they might have a FD. we want them to have a FD. they are a 3-1 dog on the flop and almost a 6-1 dog on the turn if its not a heart.

I naked flush draw needs roughly 4-1 to improve on the next card. If you get it AI on the flop, you're looking to get about 2-1 to have the right odds. By betting so small, you let anyone with a flush draw play correctly against you by giving them the right price to hit their card on the next street.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Now if a heart falls on the turn, am i at fault for only betting 40?

Of course you are! You are the one with the made hand. You are the one who should be offering them incorrect prices to draw. If you bet $40, giving them 4-1 to improve on the next card, they make a mistake BY FOLDING a flush draw. You job in a poker hand is to make bets that cause your opponents to make mistakes. Here you are the one making the mistake.

But many of you will say, we want them to make the mistake by calling without correct odds. IMO who cares. We're not gonna get anything out of it if they call without correct odds.

This is totally wrong. Do U C Y? You're saying "I want them in there, calling with the correct odds to outdraw me, beucase how else will I get their money?" If they're gonna call with the wrong odds, you gotta give them that chance. You profit from their mistakes and they profit from yours. Betting 1/3 of the pot on this flop against multiple opponents is a mistake.

The goal here is to get all my chips in th middle one way or another. If anyone of them has the case K, or a lower set, or a FD or even air with plans to steal the pot from me it doesnt matter. I have 90bb's and want max value on this hand.

Your goal is to get them to make a mistake. If that mistake is shoveling a set into you (inavoidable mistake) or calling too much with a naked draw (avoidable mistake) then you're happy. If you bet 60% of the pot and they all fold, it's likely that nobody really hit the flop anyway.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Of course you are! You are the one with the made hand. You are the one who should be offering them incorrect prices to draw. If you bet $40, giving them 4-1 to improve on the next card, they make a mistake BY FOLDING a flush draw. You job in a poker hand is to make bets that cause your opponents to make mistakes. Here you are the one making the mistake.This is totally wrong. Do U C Y? You're saying "I want them in there, calling with the correct odds to outdraw me, beucase how else will I get their money?" If they're gonna call with the wrong odds, you gotta give them that chance. You profit from their mistakes and they profit from yours. Betting 1/3 of the pot on this flop against multiple opponents is a mistake.Your goal is to get them to make a mistake. If that mistake is shoveling a set into you (inavoidable mistake) or calling too much with a naked draw (avoidable mistake) then you're happy. If you bet 60% of the pot and they all fold, it's likely that nobody really hit the flop anyway.

Ok, u said bet strongly. I bet 2/3 the pot lets say. 80 leaving me with 75 left for the turn. Giving anyone who called the flop 3.6-1 to call the turn.do you agree to this?The thing i dont agree with is the "make them make mistakes" part. Obviously we want them to play horribly, but when we know we are such a huge fav over any other hand that we assign them, why can't we play the hand that way? This may sound silly, but i know i'm way ahead here. I'm not drawing and i want my stack (which is only 90bb's) to double.The only hand that makes sense to bet 2/3 the pot against would be the FD. But then we assign one of the two villains 1 single range being a hand that holds 2 heartswe show the villains that we are committed and that they cant see a cheap river either.like i said before, villain on the button has been making "hero" calls the entire time. calling with middle pairs / pokcte pairs because he thinks everyone is bluffing.but he cant make any "hero" calls when i bet the flop so strong.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Ok, u said bet strongly. I bet 2/3 the pot lets say. 80 leaving me with 75 left for the turn. Giving anyone who called the flop 3.6-1 to call the turn.do you agree to this?The thing i dont agree with is the "make them make mistakes" part. Obviously we want them to play horribly, but when we know we are such a huge fav over any other hand that we assign them, why can't we play the hand that way? This may sound silly, but i know i'm way ahead here. I'm not drawing and i want my stack (which is only 90bb's) to double.The only hand that makes sense to bet 2/3 the pot against would be the FD. But then we assign one of the two villains 1 single range being a hand that holds 2 heartswe show the villains that we are committed and that they cant see a cheap river either.like i said before, villain on the button has been making "hero" calls the entire time. calling with middle pairs / pokcte pairs because he thinks everyone is bluffing.

You don't know who's calling and who's folding. Bet your hand on the flop and stick in what you have left. They'll have made a mistake calling the flop in the first place. They'll have had no implied odds and they'll have made the wrong play which will result in you profiting in the long run.You don't know what they hold. There is a straight draw and a flush draw out there. Yeah, you're likely crushing them, but you siad yourself that they call too much, so just bet your damn hand and make them call you.You set up the whole hand by saying that they're weak, one makes hero calls and that they're just bad in general. You wouldn't bet this little with any other hand. You wouldn't try and steal the pot with this bet. If you have AK you're betting stronger. If you have AA you're betting stronger. The fact that your bet gives away so much about your hand is a huge mistake in the first place. You have 2 opponents and you have the nuts. If they wanna call with 99 thinking it's the best hand, then let them do that.Inviting them to draw out on you so that you're slightly more likely to double up is just foolish. Make profitable plays. In this hand, the profitable play is a 2/3 bet on the flop and shovel any turn. Do you really think that their calling range widens that much when you bet a little less? Seriously?You shoudln't be betting into a multiway pot with the intention of making the flop bet small enough so that a guy can make a "hero" call on you. There's just no reason for it.

[Royal_Tour 0]

You don't know who's calling and who's folding. Bet your hand on the flop and stick in what you have left. They'll have made a mistake calling the flop in the first place. They'll have had no implied odds and they'll have made the wrong play which will result in you profiting in the long run.You don't know what they hold. There is a straight draw and a flush draw out there. Yeah, you're likely crushing them, but you siad yourself that they call too much, so just bet your damn hand and make them call you.You set up the whole hand by saying that they're weak, one makes hero calls and that they're just bad in general. You wouldn't bet this little with any other hand. You wouldn't try and steal the pot with this bet. If you have AK you're betting stronger. If you have AA you're betting stronger. The fact that your bet gives away so much about your hand is a huge mistake in the first place. You have 2 opponents and you have the nuts. If they wanna call with 99 thinking it's the best hand, then let them do that.Inviting them to draw out on you so that you're slightly more likely to double up is just foolish. Make profitable plays. In this hand, the profitable play is a 2/3 bet on the flop and shovel any turn. Do you really think that their calling range widens that much when you bet a little less? Seriously?You shoudln't be betting into a multiway pot with the intention of making the flop bet small enough so that a guy can make a "hero" call on you. There's just no reason for it.

it was my 1st orbit in the game. I watched the two of them play every hand out of the 7 or 8 hands i was there.(also, the straight might be off. i cant completely recall if it was a 4, or a 3. or even a 2. but it was a rag)

[Acid_Knight 2]

it was my 1st orbit in the game. I watched the two of them play every hand out of the 7 or 8 hands i was there.(also, the straight might be off. i cant completely recall if it was a 4, or a 3. or even a 2. but it was a rag)

Either way. You should still be betting more here like 100% of the time unless one of them flips over their hand and you see that they're not drawing to anything.

[Lavitz 0]

We just can't slowplay boards like this against not just one but two villains who have massive ranges. Its -EV.

[Royal_Tour 0]

We just can't slowplay boards like this against not just one but two villains who have massive ranges. Its -EV.

It will never be -EV. We arent checking to the river to make a move.