Tiger Woods

[mrpaddyx 13]

How about some new announcers, they all are annoying especially the scottish guy

What Scottish guy? Has Monty finally retired to the booth? As for Tiger, he isn't bad but I crushed him at Tiger Woods 05 on my PS2

[BigDMcGee 3,353]

Most dominant athlete of all time. He not only has complete control of his game at every waking moment, but he controls other player's games with his jedi mind tricks. I hope all of the hood rats are paying attention. Not saying Lebron or Kobe are horrible role models, but Tiger could change an entire generation.

yeah, because golf is a way out for so many inner city urban youth....

[BigLebowski 0]

yeah, because golf is a way out for so many inner city urban youth....

Who said anything about golf? I said role model. How about how he handles himself and how he speaks? That has nothing to do with how good he hits a golf ball.

[BigDMcGee 3,353]

Who said anything about golf? I said role model. How about how he handles himself and how he speaks? That has nothing to do with how good he hits a golf ball.

LOL @ how he speaks.

[pauld22 0]

LOL @ how he speaks.

I'm-a-drop me a bomb today!I be Pres-o-dent.How the fuck is he supposed to sound you dirty mother fucker.

Or something like that. Been a while.

[BigDMcGee 3,353]

I guess what I'm saying is the social, racial and economic problems that are plaguing america's inner cities are going to take a little more to solve than a black golfer who pronounces Keith with a "Th" instead of an "F"

[BigLebowski 0]

Do you agree that it would be a significant step forward if they paid more attention to people like Obama or Tiger instead of uneducated hoodlums who can put a round ball in a hoop?It has to begin somewhere and Tiger is as good a start as any. Unfortunately, not many have the opportunity of having a father that essentially gives up his life for the betterment of his offspring.And yes, "how he speaks". When is the last time you saw anyone of any race succeed without being able to speak and write appropriately? Don't get me started on the state of our education system as I just took a 65% pay cut to start teaching. The lack of personal responsibility in this country is astounding. Yes there are certain social, racial, and economic issues facing all minorities, but it is too easy to use those as excuses instead of actually working hard to make something of yourself. We are one of two white families on our block of townhomes in the 13th wealthiest county in the US. Not one of the other families come from money and they have little sympathy for those that continue to make excuses instead of working hard. There is always "that person" that turned their lives around. Lebron or Kobe aren't going to do shit for these kids. They actually make the problem decidedly worse.Perfect example. Today I had a black kid who was making a football field out of contruction paper instead of reading his AR book for his morning work. I took it away and told him I would give it back to him at the end of the day so he could take it home. He asked me no less than 20 times during the day if I would give it back to him and he did not complete one assignment. I am not saying this doesn't happen with white kids, but the level of incidence isn't even comparable.

[BigDMcGee 3,353]

Do you agree that it would be a significant step forward if they paid more attention to people like Obama or Tiger instead of uneducated hoodlums who can put a round ball in a hoop?It has to begin somewhere and Tiger is as good a start as any. Unfortunately, not many have the opportunity of having a father that essentially gives up his life for the betterment of his offspring.And yes, "how he speaks". When is the last time you saw anyone of any race succeed without being able to speak and write appropriately? Don't get me started on the state of our education system as I just took a 65% pay cut to start teaching. The lack of personal responsibility in this country is astounding. Yes there are certain social, racial, and economic issues facing all minorities, but it is too easy to use those as excuses instead of actually working hard to make something of yourself. We are one of two white families on our block of townhomes in the 13th wealthiest county in the US. Not one of the other families come from money and they have little sympathy for those that continue to make excuses instead of working hard. There is always "that person" that turned their lives around. Lebron or Kobe aren't going to do shit for these kids. They actually make the problem decidedly worse.Perfect example. Today I had a black kid who was making a football field out of contruction paper instead of reading his AR book for his morning work. I took it away and told him I would give it back to him at the end of the day so he could take it home. He asked me no less than 20 times during the day if I would give it back to him and he did not complete one assignment. I am not saying this doesn't happen with white kids, but the level of incidence isn't even comparable.

LOL yes, and the idolizing a golfer is the solution to those problems. El oh El. Also, you talk about Lebron and Kobe as if they are a couple of thugs. Have you ever heard either of them interviewed? Do you know what the fuck you're even talking about? Kobe came from an wealthy background, his dad was an NBA and Euro-League ball player. He grew up in Europe partially, speaks many languages, was educated in private schools his entire life, and is extremely intelligent and "well spoken" Lebron, also well spoken, if not quite as polished, came from a much poorer back ground, and is a much better example of someone "worked his way from the bottom" than Tiger woods, whom was raised by his middle class father to be a golfer since he was three. Lebron wasn't given anything, except god given talent. He's worked extremely hard, and is one of the most unselfish ball players in the nba. The solution to the problems of urban america isn't idol worship, one way or another. But to classify Kobe and Lebron as what's wrong with america, is just ignorant.

[BigDMcGee 3,353]

Also, why is it always black people who need to learn how to speak well? Why don't southerns need to learn correct pronunciation? Why don't Guidos from Jersey need to learn how the language is spoken? I'll let you guess why...

[BigLebowski 0]

Also, you talk about Lebron and Kobe as if they are a couple of thugs. Have you ever heard either of them interviewed? Do you know what the fuck you're even talking about? Kobe came from an wealthy background, his dad was an NBA and Euro-League ball player. He grew up in Europe partially, speaks many languages, was educated in private schools his entire life, and is extremely intelligent and "well spoken" Lebron, also well spoken, if not quite as polished, came from a much poorer back ground, and is a much better example of someone "worked his way from the bottom" than Tiger woods, whom was raised by his middle class father to be a golfer since he was three. Lebron wasn't given anything, except god given talent. He's worked extremely hard, and is one of the most unselfish ball players in the nba. The solution to the problems of urban america isn't idol worship, one way or another. But to classify Kobe and Lebron as what's wrong with america, is just ignorant.

Agree with everything here. Kobe had a little run in with the law that he paid his way out of. Even if he was criminally innocent he is far from morally innocent. And yes, I have heard Lebron speak many times and there is much room for improvement. Yes, I could have gone the easy route and found a couple of guys that were easier to pick on, but these guys get a good bit of attention last time I checked. Who said anything about them being the problem with "America"?

[BigLebowski 0]

Also, why is it always black people who need to learn how to speak well? Why don't southerns need to learn correct pronunciation? Why don't Guidos from Jersey need to learn how the language is spoken? I'll let you guess why...

which is exactly why I said:

When is the last time you saw anyone of any race succeed without being able to speak and write appropriately?

The topic of this thread is Tiger Woods....

[BigDMcGee 3,353]

Agree with most everything here except for the fact that Kobe had a little run in with the law that he paid his way out of. Even if he was criminally innocent he is far from morally innocent. And yes, I have heard Lebron speak many times and there is much room for improvement. Yes, I could have gone the easy route and found a couple of guys that were easier to pick on, but these guys get a good bit of attention last time I checked. Who said anything about them being the problem with "America"?

morally innocent El oh El.No, you just said Kobe and Lebron are making things decidedly worse for these kids, My bad. That's a much more realistic and fair statement.

[BigDMcGee 3,353]

Speak and write appropriately LOL.

[BigDMcGee 3,353]

Yes, I could have gone the easy route and found a couple of guys that were easier to pick on, but these guys get a good bit of attention last time I checked.

And also, the way you put that makes it seem like you weighted the pros and cons of many different pro athletes, and settled on Kobe and Lebron because of the righteousness of the pick.I would wager this thought pattern was more like:NBA=Thugi don't know shit about the nba, but i know lebron and kobe.Lebron and Kobe=thugDon't try and church up your ignorance, please. Your rationalization is transparent.

[BigLebowski 0]

This is going to be my last post on this topic as we will just have to agree to disagree. Yes, it obviously wasn't a cut and dry comparison.I actually think one of the problems with our education system is letting people like myself teaching inner city schools. Yes, we might be better role models than they are used to, but there is no way we can relate to them and how they live, and even more importantly how they should be educated. You can go to school for however long you want to study it, but it will never give you an education about it as living through it would have. When your education system is run by people who have never set foot in a classroom you get a big heaping scoop of fail. And you lose on the thought wager, but it's irrelevant. NBA-only sport being covered right now so it was the first to come to mindLebron and Kobe- who's jerseys do I see most of the kids wearing at school

[BigDMcGee 3,353]

This is going to be my last post on this topic as we will just have to agree to disagree. Yes, it obviously wasn't a cut and dry comparison.I actually think one of the problems with our education system is letting people like myself teaching inner city schools. Yes, we might be better role models than they are used to, but there is no way we can relate to them and how they live, and even more importantly how they should be educated. You can go to school for however long you want to study it, but it will never give you an education about it as living through it would have. When your education system is run by people who have never set foot in a classroom you get a big heaping scoop of fail. And you lose on the thought wager, but it's irrelevant. NBA-only sport being covered right now so it was the first to come to mindLebron and Kobe- who's jerseys do I see most of the kids wearing at school

ah, so the thought process was like this..Kids at my school are mirco thugsKids at my school wear Kobe and Lebron jerseysKobe and lebron are thugs..Now I get it.Listen, I'm not trying to pretend what it's like to try and teach in an inner city school. Having to fight a culture that doesn't respect learning in the slightest, trying to fight parents who care little about their children's education, must be an incredibly hard and frustrating thing. But Kobe and Lebron aren't to blame for it, and Tiger woods isn't the solution, is all I'm saying.

[jmh06 0]

Problem too, is you have to make the parents care. Education doesn't only occur in a classroom. If a law were passed tomorrow that said you couldn't claim a kid as a dependent unless they had a 3.0 GPA parents might start caring a bit more about their child and his or her education.Thugs typically stick to misdemeanor crimes and rape isn't a misdemeanor; therefore, Kobe isn't a thug. Anyway, my point is that many inner city kids look up to basketball players, as basketball is a cheap sport to play (parks have hoops, everyone has tennis shoes and a ball at Wal-Mart costs like 15 bucks) and dominated by personalities that came from similar circumstances as the children who adore them. All that said, the blame falls on the shoulders of the NBA for pushing this garbage image that they've pushed for years. It was ok to push Jordan, Mike came from a good family in North Carolina; however, when you start pushing Allen Iverson, the same guy who did some time in jail (and would still be there if it weren't for former Gov. Doug Wilder pardoning him) for beating his girlfriend in a bowling alley and dropping a bowling ball on her stomach while she was pregnant. Then factor in him griping a few years ago about practicing, you know, the thing that is about the only sure fire way to make you better as a player and the thing that all kids really need to learn to love. That's AI, all class, all the way. Or take half of the Pacers firing guns off in a strip joint parking lot at 4am. The fact of the matter is the NBA is garbage, and unfortunately I believe it has a tendency to trickle down into society in general.As for Tiger as the solution. I'm a golf fan, and everyone knows Tiger ain't going there. He really tries hard to avoid race and societial issues. He has the Jordan attitude of "I'm just here to play golf, I'm not going to become the face of some deeper issue." Quite frankly, I really respect him for it. He does great work with inner cities (First Tee just built a course in Richmond a few years ago that damn near rivals most of the Country Clubs) but he doesn't want his face plastered all over the issue.

[BigDMcGee 3,353]

Problem too, is you have to make the parents care. Education doesn't only occur in a classroom. If a law were passed tomorrow that said you couldn't claim a kid as a dependent unless they had a 3.0 GPA parents might start caring a bit more about their child and his or her education.Thugs typically stick to misdemeanor crimes and rape isn't a misdemeanor; therefore, Kobe isn't a thug. Anyway, my point is that many inner city kids look up to basketball players, as basketball is a cheap sport to play (parks have hoops, everyone has tennis shoes and a ball at Wal-Mart costs like 15 bucks) and dominated by personalities that came from similar circumstances as the children who adore them. All that said, the blame falls on the shoulders of the NBA for pushing this garbage image that they've pushed for years. It was ok to push Jordan, Mike came from a good family in North Carolina; however, when you start pushing Allen Iverson, the same guy who did some time in jail (and would still be there if it weren't for former Gov. Doug Wilder pardoning him) for beating his girlfriend in a bowling alley and dropping a bowling ball on her stomach while she was pregnant. Then factor in him griping a few years ago about practicing, you know, the thing that is about the only sure fire way to make you better as a player and the thing that all kids really need to learn to love. That's AI, all class, all the way. Or take half of the Pacers firing guns off in a strip joint parking lot at 4am. The fact of the matter is the NBA is garbage, and unfortunately I believe it has a tendency to trickle down into society in general.As for Tiger as the solution. I'm a golf fan, and everyone knows Tiger ain't going there. He really tries hard to avoid race and societial issues. He has the Jordan attitude of "I'm just here to play golf, I'm not going to become the face of some deeper issue." Quite frankly, I really respect him for it. He does great work with inner cities (First Tee just built a course in Richmond a few years ago that damn near rivals most of the Country Clubs) but he doesn't want his face plastered all over the issue.

Can we just back up the Kobe is a Rapist truck please?Also, this "NBA is garbage and it trickles down to society" is absurd. You have your causes and your effects completely switched around. Have ever considered that NBA players like AI or the Pacers, act this way because they came from the streets, not that the streets are bad because NBA players have tats and wear do rags? People aren't rubbing their WWAID Necklace, right before they go mug somebody at an ATM. The way NBA players act is a symptom of the problem, not it's cause. And also, the NBA isn't "pushing this garbage image" Most of the consumers of expensive NBA Season tickets are white. The NBA hates it's thug image, and has been doing everything it can to try and counteract it, things like the dress code, severe penalties for on court violence, ect. The NBA would prefer nice, corporate friendly athletes, and truthfully the past couple years have had many of them emerge ( the most notable being Lebron, who comes across as warm, funny and media friendly, and is about the most unselfish mega star in league history on the court) But what can the league do about the fact that the best players of the game come from poor black inner cites? Make a ban on poor black athletes?

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Also, why is it always black people who need to learn how to speak well? Why don't southerns need to learn correct pronunciation? Why don't Guidos from Jersey need to learn how the language is spoken? I'll let you guess why...

Oh, god, they all do. That goes for you too, Boston. Is it really that difficult to enunciate? Mother of mercy.

[jmh06 0]

Also, this "NBA is garbage and it trickles down to society" is absurd. You have your causes and your effects completely switched around. Have ever considered that NBA players like AI or the Pacers, act this way because they came from the streets, not that the streets are bad because NBA players have tats and wear do rags? People aren't rubbing their WWAID Necklace, right before they go mug somebody at an ATM. The way NBA players act is a symptom of the problem, not it's cause. And also, the NBA isn't "pushing this garbage image" Most of the consumers of expensive NBA Season tickets are white. The NBA hates it's thug image, and has been doing everything it can to try and counteract it, things like the dress code, severe penalties for on court violence, ect. The NBA would prefer nice, corporate friendly athletes, and truthfully the past couple years have had many of them emerge ( the most notable being Lebron, who comes across as warm, funny and media friendly, and is about the most unselfish mega star in league history on the court) But what can the league do about the fact that the best players of the game come from poor black inner cites? Make a ban on poor black athletes?

First, the Kobe shot was a joke. I'm pretty sure he tagged that chick in a CONSENSUAL encounter and she went looking for some cash. I live outside of Durham, and the girl's story there matched up even less than the stripper's story down here did.Second, I stand corrected in regards to AI. In re-reading the story, he popped a random girl upside the head with a chair, not his girlfriend in the stomach with a bowling ball. Amazing how your memory can actually think he did something worse than he actually did. So, for getting the facts really wrong I do apologize. That said, either way, if you're from the streets or Mars, you know better than that.And if the NBA wanted to solve the problem they'd up the draft age to 21. As you pointed out, the problem isn't the NBA so much as the kids and the environments they come from. I promise you if you take the worst kid in Harlem and gave him three years of tutelage at a Duke or a North Carolina he'd be a different person. You tell him he's got to go to school for one year, and only attend class for one semester (as he's gone by the time 2nd semester grades hit) I think you're just increasing the problem. Further, basketball players tend to get the 'star treatment' in college and are allowed to live off campus, etc. Make them live in the dorms and room with Joe Blow. Interacting with others from different walks of life is a great way to mature and adjust. Further, educating oneself to the highest extent possible would also help make each athlete more 'corporate friendly.'Personally, I don't agree with the NBA and their suit policy. I don't think any policy like that should even have to be implemented. I'm 23 years old, so I grew up with MJ and the NBA's heyday. Even back then the Jordan's, Barkley's, etc. were wearing suits after games and nobody gave them a rule that they had to. I don't care what neighborhood or background you come from, everyone knows what is and is not 'class' and how to appropriately dress and act - especially when you're pulling down 20 million a year.The NBA has done a great job of pushing 'corporate friendly' athletes and LeBron is a great example of this. Quite frankly, I think his marketing talent is more expansive than his basketball talent. The "LeBron's" Nike commercials last year were great. But one or two guys can't deter an entire image that teams like the Pacers have allowed to be created. That's where David Stern has to step in, which he does, but not to the extent Goodell does. If I were a player in each league, here's how I'd see it:NFL: "Man, I better not fart and let Rog smell it" whereas the NBA is more "****, got arrested...Oh well, Stern ain't gonna do nothing."All this said, I will commend Stern as his league has been fairly clean since the All Star game in Vegas a two years ago. That was like the high water mark of it all.

[BigLebowski 0]

But Kobe and Lebron aren't to blame for it, and Tiger woods isn't the solution, is all I'm saying.

If you look back, I actually said Kobe and Lebron "aren't the worst" role models and I said Tiger could make a huge difference and I still stand by that. I will also stand by Tiger being a better role model than those two every day and twice on Sunday's. You also said something about Kobe going to private school his whole life. I know every state is different, but in Georgia (who I will point out is like 45th in education) you don't even need to have a teaching certificate to teach at a private school. High school diploma or GED is good enough. Just because you spend a lot of money for more rules doesn't always mean you get a better education. However, I do like your arguments and agree with a lot of what you have said in this thread.

Problem too, is you have to make the parents care. Education doesn't only occur in a classroom. If a law were passed tomorrow that said you couldn't claim a kid as a dependent unless they had a 3.0 GPA parents might start caring a bit more about their child and his or her education.

This might work until the law maker's kids are the ones getting below the 3.0. Then the grading standards just get dropped down a couple of notches. Unfortunately, this is exactly what has been happening for the past 10 years. More tests + easier standards = no denial of government funding. The amount of cheating that goes on at schools is also gross...and that includes the teachers cheating FOR their students. It's all about the funding and very little about the actual education of students.

[BigDMcGee 3,353]

First, the Kobe shot was a joke. I'm pretty sure he tagged that chick in a CONSENSUAL encounter and she went looking for some cash. I live outside of Durham, and the girl's story there matched up even less than the stripper's story down here did.Second, I stand corrected in regards to AI. In re-reading the story, he popped a random girl upside the head with a chair, not his girlfriend in the stomach with a bowling ball. Amazing how your memory can actually think he did something worse than he actually did. So, for getting the facts really wrong I do apologize. That said, either way, if you're from the streets or Mars, you know better than that.And if the NBA wanted to solve the problem they'd up the draft age to 21. As you pointed out, the problem isn't the NBA so much as the kids and the environments they come from. I promise you if you take the worst kid in Harlem and gave him three years of tutelage at a Duke or a North Carolina he'd be a different person. You tell him he's got to go to school for one year, and only attend class for one semester (as he's gone by the time 2nd semester grades hit) I think you're just increasing the problem. Further, basketball players tend to get the 'star treatment' in college and are allowed to live off campus, etc. Make them live in the dorms and room with Joe Blow. Interacting with others from different walks of life is a great way to mature and adjust. Further, educating oneself to the highest extent possible would also help make each athlete more 'corporate friendly.'Personally, I don't agree with the NBA and their suit policy. I don't think any policy like that should even have to be implemented. I'm 23 years old, so I grew up with MJ and the NBA's heyday. Even back then the Jordan's, Barkley's, etc. were wearing suits after games and nobody gave them a rule that they had to. I don't care what neighborhood or background you come from, everyone knows what is and is not 'class' and how to appropriately dress and act - especially when you're pulling down 20 million a year.The NBA has done a great job of pushing 'corporate friendly' athletes and LeBron is a great example of this. Quite frankly, I think his marketing talent is more expansive than his basketball talent. The "LeBron's" Nike commercials last year were great. But one or two guys can't deter an entire image that teams like the Pacers have allowed to be created. That's where David Stern has to step in, which he does, but not to the extent Goodell does. If I were a player in each league, here's how I'd see it:NFL: "Man, I better not fart and let Rog smell it" whereas the NBA is more "****, got arrested...Oh well, Stern ain't gonna do nothing."All this said, I will commend Stern as his league has been fairly clean since the All Star game in Vegas a two years ago. That was like the high water mark of it all.

A couple things.Belive me, the NBA wanted to make it 21, the players Union objected. Any rule like that they make, the players have to sign onto. Believe me, Stern knows the image problem of the NBA, and is trying to address it.For every duke and north carolina, there is a Bob huggins that doesn't care crap about his players, and just exploit them, and let them run wild. Also, few kids from the truly rough streets can get into Duke. Also, Your Harlem sterotype is about 20 years old. It is black, but there are probably 100 communities in the country that are rougher than harlem these days, it has really cleaned up.Also, saying "I don't care who you are or where you came from, you know what class is, you know how to act, you know how to dress" please, tell me how this knowledge is magically imparted to a kid? IF someone grew up in the streets, in a single parent home, aroudn thugs his whole life, that dress and act a certain way, how the hell would he learn the "right" way to act? You take a kid out of the projects, who has no experience at all dealing with professionals, who only knows his culture, can only relate to it, how is he going to know these things? When he signs the check for the 20 million dollar contract, he doesn't get hit in the head with the "act right" stick. Some kids grow up and mature (Allen Iverson has quite a bit, in case you didn't know, I don't know if you've heard him interviewed the last few years), and became more adult. Some are just ruined by the criminal environment they came from, and the quick infusion of cash into that lifestyle. But much less so than the media would have you believe. For ever Pac Man and Vick, there are 100's of athletes that make the most of their opportunity to get out.

[BigDMcGee 3,353]

If you look back, I actually said Kobe and Lebron "aren't the worst" role models and I said Tiger could make a huge difference and I still stand by that.

Yeah, you know, when I look back, I don't see that. I do see this.

. Lebron or Kobe aren't going to do shit for these kids. They actually make the problem decidedly worse.

and that's patently retarded.

I will also stand by Tiger being a better role model than those two every day and twice on Sunday's. You also said something about Kobe going to private school his whole life. I know every state is different, but in Georgia (who I will point out is like 45th in education) you don't even need to have a teaching certificate to teach at a private school. High school diploma or GED is good enough. Just because you spend a lot of money for more rules doesn't always mean you get a better education. However, I do like your arguments and agree with a lot of what you have said in this thread.

First and foremost, I don't think any athlete is a good "role model" for the vast amount of children. Athletic talent completely a crap shoot, and while hard work can compensate for a certain amount of lack of talent, and hard work is necessary to achieve greatness, the type of talent Kobe, Tiger and Lebron have is freakishly rare. I don't think kids, in general, should look to athletics as a way out off of the streets, because it's a myth to all but the smallest fraction of a percent. Who a kid looks up to as a kid has zero impact on how they turn out as adults, in comparison to where they were born, how much involvment their parents have in their lives, their family's income level, genentic mental factors, peer groups, school quality, and on and on and on. There are millions of kids in the suburbs who have Kobe and Lebron jerseys, and they don't turn into criminal, unemployable adults. I object to the concept of any star, any famous person, having some messiah type effect on inner cities, and I certainly don't think Tiger will be the one to do it.But as far as an relatible icon, I think Lebron is superior in many ways than Tiger. For one thing, actually came from an inner city. He shares things in common with these children culturally. The only thing that tiger shares with inner city kids, from a cultural standpoint, is skin color. Lebron actually came from the same sort of places they did. And rose up from his conditions and made a success of himself. Lebron works extremely hard (as does Tiger and Kobe), and is extremely unselfish inspite of being the sports biggest star. The type of basketball he plays is not the selfish, ball hog type that was pioneered by Jordan, and adopted by "hip-hop" culture, the Iverson/Marbury mold. Lebron plays team basketball. What's not to like about that? But , really, what ever Lebron's story is, how ever inspirational his story might be... Barkley is right, athletes aren't role models. People need to give up this idea that athletes, of all retarded things, can have these huge societal impacts. It's just an illusion.Kids need parents, peers and environments conducive to hope and success. That's what really matters. Not which jersey you wear.

[jmh06 0]

For every duke and north carolina, there is a Bob huggins that doesn't care crap about his players, and just exploit them, and let them run wild. Also, few kids from the truly rough streets can get into Duke.

I'll give you this, McGee, you know your s***. I've always felt the biggest joke in college basketball was not being harsher on programs that do not graduate their players. Thinking about it, aside from Kenyon Martin who did he have that made it in the NBA? Huggie Bear owes some kids a big apology and honestly much more than that. Off topic, but has a Labor Union ever done s**t for good (in sports)? Baseball's PA wants to look at why Bonds hasn't been signed (Uh, he's 43 and wants 20 mil a year...and he's charged with perjury) because they think it's suspicious. The football PA is screwing the guys who built that league out of deserved compensation. The basketball PA is screwing kids out of an education that will last far longer than that first signing bonus.If my Harlem stereotype was old I apologize. I'm not looking for any racially segregated area or anything, I was trying to find a notoriously tough, tough area.And regardless of where you come from, you know how to act. If you're poor, your mother still told you to dress sharp for church or something, didn't she? Common sense dictates wearing (at the very least) a dress shirt and slacks when appearing in court, yet I see more jeans and tee shirts than ever. Haven't you ever cursed in public and had someone say something to you or give you a dirty look? Flip on TV to "The Apprentice" (I just use it as it's supposedly a business related show, personally I've never watched it) and you'll see Trump and his corporate cronies in suits. You can pick up knowledge on 'acting right' anywhere, so I'm not buying this "You have to come from it" mentality.I think it very simply breaks down to you are what you want to be. If you want to act like a thug, you will. If you want to act like an upstanding citizen, you will. If you want to work and better yourself, you will. If you want to run with the same ole same ole, you will. It's not difficult. I saw you mentioned Vick, and I want to defend him a bit. He's actually a very nice, well spoken man (I met him when he was at Tech...by met I mean we shared about three sentences before he moved on so we didn't exchange baby pictures of our kids, but you get the drift) that worked hard to get to the NFL. His brother is actually the troublemaker of the family and deserves Mike's image. Anyway, Mike Vick brought himself down by keeping his former environment. I think a lot of athletes need to look at his situation and realize that's the stuff you get into by keeping old friends and staying true to old neighborhoods.I cannot defend PacMan, nor do I wish to. I just want him to shut down Moss and bring a Super Bowl back to Dallas. Short of that, I have no use for him.

[jmh06 0]

But as far as an relatible icon, I think Lebron is superior in many ways than Tiger. For one thing, actually came from an inner city. He shares things in common with these children culturally. The only thing that tiger shares with inner city kids, from a cultural standpoint, is skin color. Lebron actually came from the same sort of places they did. And rose up from his conditions and made a success of himself. Lebron works extremely hard (as does Tiger and Kobe), and is extremely unselfish inspite of being the sports biggest star. The type of basketball he plays is not the selfish, ball hog type that was pioneered by Jordan, and adopted by "hip-hop" culture, the Iverson/Marbury mold. Lebron plays team basketball. What's not to like about that? But , really, what ever Lebron's story is, how ever inspirational his story might be... Barkley is right, athletes aren't role models. People need to give up this idea that athletes, of all retarded things, can have these huge societal impacts. It's just an illusion.Kids need parents, peers and environments conducive to hope and success. That's what really matters. Not which jersey you wear.

I'm not going to argue Tiger came from the roughest neighborhood, but his daddy was in the military so they weren't exactly living on Hollywood Blvd. Like most inner city kids, Tiger wasn't allowed to play at country clubs. He actually had it worse than kids today do - he wasn't allowed alot of places because he was black, not because he lacked the coin. Tiger doesn't share anything with inner city kids because he doesn't want to. Furthermore, I think his daddy brought him up in a military tradition so 'thugging' wasn't really an option for young Tigre.LeBron was a freak as a kid who got noticed and took a scholarship to a private school. Also, I heard his mother being interviewed recently and she's actually fairly well spoken. I think LeBron probably came from a good home (note good home doesn't mean a mansion somewhere, he just had a good mother that brought him up right) and had a good quality educational life.What do we have in common? Two parents who cared deeply about their children and arguably spent more quality time 'parenting' than 'coaching', though both of these are much better than just 'ignoring'.