kurt's jack 10 at the wpt........

[Smasharoo 0]

You know what the funniest part of this whole thing is?No one's given a single reason moving in on the turn is better than calling.I've seen a bunch of arguments about how it's not much worse, but none explaining why people think it's better.The reason calling is better is quite clear and semingly just accepted as given by consensus.If someone else was making the argument other than me I imagine it'd have been over long ago.Funny stuff.

[strategy 4]

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[pokernoobie 0]

Yes suited_up got his chips in while he was ahead, yes he did get bad beated; however this is one of those siutation where getting your money in is not correct. like ive said before the guy would have hung onto his trip aces so hypothetically suited up could have gotten a call for his all in on turn or the river unless a real scare card came out for trip aces which is unlikely just like that 2nd king. so pushing all in on the turn is pointless calling and seeing that river would have enabled him to fold

[goleafsgo 0]

Just wondering i asked before and you didnt answer.Ok last thing on MY OPINON on the hand for tonight at least (maybe). There might be a circumtance where you can smooth call fold. Like i said a few times i dont like the check on the flop because if you bet your avoiding this whole situation. I really thing you need to know a lot of things like approximite stack size, blind size, blind structure, people left until the money, how the guy was playing etc. For stack size Short stack isnt good enough. If you have 5,000 of the 25,000 left and its level 2 i think smooth call fold is the right play even though your "short stacked". I just dont think there is enough info about the hand. Im not saying you never check fold and i think folding equity is another factor. It seems from the posts that he has none. With no folding equity it goes back to the KK vs AA assuming that you know the other player has KK and wont fold. Do you just call and see a flop. And then how do you play it when no king hits the flop. do you check call all the way down hopeing that no king hits. It seems check fold is way to weak a play to make here. You need to take chances in a tourney at points...and 75 percent fav is a pretty good way to bust out. Id rather be all in to a 30,000 pot as a 75 percent fav then being blinded all in next round because i folded on the river. Thats why i think stack size amd blind size matter. Pos EV isnt only for the single hand, its for the tournament. You make the move that gives you the best chances to win the touney and i think all in on the turn is the play if you know he has A9. I dont like the check...i probably would have push the turn but after you check and realise you could have pushed then i think you have to reraise all in.

[tskillz187 0]

smash is right! I think this is a pretty cut and dried situation, he should tap on the flop or tap on the river, i disagree that stack sizes dont matter and also disagree that gathering chips is the goal in the early going. Stack size does matter, however in this tournament they had a crazy amount of chips:blinds. This means he could have only had about 15% of his stack and still be in a very fine position. Also, because 22% of the entrants are getting prize money, accumulation of chips on day 1 is not all that important, survive and get your money in when you are ahead. Granted that is what kurt did, its just that he had two better times to get his money all in, and he chose the exact wrong street. Obviously kurt must be a pretty solid player for gaining the entry, im not questioning that, I;m just saying that this play is incorrect. I think after he views the threads and reevaluates the situation that he will notice that he can play this situation more safely and extract the same amount when he will win, and lose the minimum when he will lose and that's the best of both worlds.

[goleafsgo 0]

Well theres no point in saying smash is wrong because hes just going to say im wrong and im not going to make a stupid low blow because id wouldnt be able to take the crown from him on that topic. i think we can all agree that the check flop and check turn were both bad plays however once you check the turn you have to move in i think. Whatever disagrement, such is life. and now i have to sleep because i have an exam in like 10 hrsCheers

[strategy 4]

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[tskillz187 0]

for an amateur it was a fantastic hand, but it was played like many of us amateurs would have played it. it wasnt the correct play, i have already stated that i would have played it the exact same way he did, but that doesn't make it right! i mean to say it was a fantastic hand, who cares? fantastic hands can be dealt to monkeys...now if you would like to say he did a fantastic job just to make it to the tournament i do agree, but this was a mistake.

[steve7stud 0]

I thought that I stated my casr for pushing when I posted the thread to begin with. But if you look back, you will see that I have three options. All of which I think are good plays. For me personally, I agree with the way that Kurt played the hand. I might have done things differently in various stages. But, I DON'T fault his strategy at all.  There is an argument that can and will be made for pushing and calling on the turn. I am in favor of pushing. But, I wanted to hear why others thought that calling was correct.

I just thought you were switching opinions with the way you posted your hypothetical questions. *shrugs* Just making sure you didn't pull a Ker... you know, I'll stop right there.

Not sure what a Ker is, but I orignally wanted to get feedback on variations of plays on the turn. I also wanted to hear the thought process behind it. After reading some of the arguments, the logical part of my brain has conceded. It seems to make sense that checking and calling the turn is the right play. However, my gut disagrees with this idea. One of the great things about poker is that you can change your opinion from time to time. Getting into the habit of being inflexible can get someone in a lot of trouble.

[Smasharoo 0]

You want to check it down and see if you're the favorite after the river? That's fine. You're thinking nice and lucid as you sit behind your computer. I think Kurt did a great job not to pee himself. For an amateur, this was a fantastic hand.I don't disagree.IT was just the wrong play. That doesn't make Kurt a bad player nor does me identifying that ex post facto in any way make me a better player.None of that has anything to do with what I'm saying.

[strategy 4]

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[Smasharoo 0]

I think I can also make a case for allying with Hitler in WWII if I cut out enough of the story, too.I'm not cutting anything out. IT was the wrong play.Kurt played great.not two contradictoray statements.

[steve7stud 0]

You know what the funniest part of this whole thing is?No one's given a single reason moving in on the turn is better than calling.I've seen a bunch of arguments about how it's not much worse, but none explaining why people think it's better.The reason calling is better is quite clear and semingly just accepted as given by consensus.If someone else was making the argument other than me I imagine it'd have been over long ago.Funny stuff.

One of the reasons for gettting the money in on the turn is this. If Kurt knows or thinks that he has the best hand. He wants to let the OTHER guy make a mistake. The mistake was made by the other guy by calling the all in. The guy could've said, hey wait, is this kid slow playing a full house or Jack 10. At which point, the other player is a serious dog. The result, Kurt wins the pot right then and there. The problem is, Kurt didn't see the other guys hand, we all know what it is now. A number of other cards could have fallen on the river. If the other player was a GOOD player and Kurt did bet on the river. He should KNOW that Kurt wouldn't put in his case money UNLESS he wanted to get called. Giving him the option of laying the hand down. Those are just some random thoughts. Now that I think about it. I do think it is a bit more complicated. The gut and the head are fighting again, lol.

[strategy 4]

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[Smasharoo 0]

So you're saying that the players in the hand don't actually matter, that it's just the bets, holecards, and board? If so, then I must ask, why are you posting this in Kurt's thread? Sure, it was his hand, but doesn't it belong in Strategy if we're going to ignore the fact that it was Kurt, an amateur, up against a few professionals in a huge buyin tournament with a short stack?I'm not ignoring any of that. none of that makes moving in there any better.

[Abbaddabba 0]

It's goes without say that if he's willing to call the all-in on the turn, he will end up with all of his chips in the pot at the showdown regardless of whether he improves (supposing he had an ace). With that in mind, you would be a fool to say that it's debatable whether or not a push was a good idea, or "subjective" as some of you are suggesting. Only if there was a flush draw out there would he be justified in pushing. The rationale there is entirely different. A flush draw will not call you down at the river if they don't improve. Someone with an ace will.

[JTPHS 0]

Wow once again smash is clearly right. Steve, i think your analysis is good, and i think it's a fine play, probably might have done it myself if i wasn't thinking hard. But smash is clearly right.he's givin' hard evidence and clear logic. I wish I could disagree with something I've seen smash say so I could state an arguement as good as his. To this point, he's always been right as far as I've seen with the most support that is. I can see where his frustration comes from.Not to disrespect anyone here, but it's the way i see it.Either way, I'd like to see Daniel make this a quiz question or something and see what his response is. BTW, this is a technique that's used quite often in Omaha.. a heavy drawing game. Wait till later streets before you're sure you have the best of it with the best odds.

[strategy 4]

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[Smasharoo 0]

We could go back and forth on this, but you're not contributing much other than, "you're wrong." Why does Kurt being a short-stacked amateur not influence whether or not the hand was played correctly? Huh?The reason moving in on the turn is wrong is that you put chips at risk for no reason. Any hand calling you on the turn is calling you on the river. If you're beat on the turn, you can't improve on the river. If you're ahead on the turn you can call and see the river and have more information to determine if you're still ahead without riskig your tournament life for no benefit on tht turn.How does chip stack factor into that at all?Again let me say that if Kurt had one chip left, moving in still isnt' better than calling, it just becomes *less worse*.There's no back and forth. You're wrong, it's not a factor in this particular decision.Sorry.

[Abbaddabba 0]

We could go back and forth on this, but you're not contributing much other than, "you're wrong."

You're wrong.

[Suited_Up 2]

Well I'm back home now... Glad I could start a nice discussion... This is still the first thread I've read, so I will get to others after this... But, let me explain some more things.The things that Steve said at the beginning were right on. As soon as I saw that flop, I wasn't gonna push hard and let them have an easy fold on the flop. I was at like 18k in chips, which was probably shortest at the table... I desperately needed to get a big pot back, because as much as 18k sounds like... I wasn't comfortable with it. Blinds were 200/400 with a 50 ante. And those ante's make a lot of difference. When the Ace came on the turn, and we both checked again, I could see his reaction at the two checks behind him again. It gave me the sense he was thinking... Well what the heck are you two still in this hand for? So he bet almost the pot on the turn... It was either over protecting a middle pair, or a weak ace. The ace seemed more likely, but I really didn't care which one it was at this point. I was confident that I had the best hand, and I didn't want him to have a chance to catch up. I pushed half-hoping for the fold. But I was fine with a call, but I really didn't care either way. I figured my 16k was enough to get him off what he had. Unfortunately he was the big stack and decided to risk it. I guarantee if he had just a little less chips he would have folded. Because the pot at this point was maybe 7k or a lil over. 16k on top of that, isn't exactly pricing him in like some people mentioned. If he knew I had J10... which I'm pretty sure he did, he didn't have the best chance to hit his full house... but he called basically because he could.I had David Oppenheim on my left (Which I will go into in another thread at some point)... But as soon as I pushed in and he was making the call, before I turned my cards over... He says "straight?" I said yeah and turned it over. He knew what I had, and I'm pretty sure most of the table did as well... I'm pretty sure he knew he was making a bad call but risked it anyway... Not sure why really, but he got lucky and I didn't. But I really did need to double up, because the pots were getting pretty big consistently at this point, and If I tried to get into a couple other pots and missed a few times, I would be getting super desperate, and I didn't really want to double up when I was down to like 5k instead of 18. I was trying to get to the end of the day with at least 35k, but would have really liked to get back to 50 after a couple tough hands against David. Ok... well those are some thoughts for right now, you might not like my choice, but it was really the best move at the time. It's not always cut and dry, and it's easy to say what to do after the fact, or when you're not in the situation, but I was getting all in with that hand, just unfortunate that he hit runner-runner to beat me.

[Smasharoo 0]

Ok... well those are some thoughts for right now, you might not like my choice, but it was really the best move at the timeReally wasn't.Good explination though.Hope Vegas was fun and all that and that you learned something.

[HoosierAlum 0]

Hey guys, Smash is correct here. I just read through the entire thread and couldn't find one person's reasoning why pushing on the turn is better than calling and seeing what hits on the river. I can't see what benefit comes in this situation from pushing all-in on the turn. Your opponent is going to call the all-in on the river anyway, so you might as well gather as much information as possible. If I was in this situation with my tournament life at stake I can't say that I would have the presence of mind to just call and wait for the river, but it clearly is the correct play.

[t 0]

One of the reasons for gettting the money in on the turn is this. If Kurt knows or thinks that he has the best hand. He wants to let the OTHER guy make a mistake. The mistake was made by the other guy by calling the all in. The guy could've said, hey wait, is this kid slow playing a full house or Jack 10. At which point, the other player is a serious dog. The result, Kurt wins the pot right then and there.  

The problem with this is (and i can't verify this without the stack sizes and bet sizes, but it is a logical guess since Suited was short-stacked) that the opponent is not making a mistake by calling here. He has the worst hand, but there is only 1 hand that beats him at this point and that is JT, assuming that people will be raising with AK, AQ, AA, KK, QQ (which is a virtual certainty) every other hand either loses, or splits the pot or is a freeroll to 4 outs. After his bet on the turn I am guessing that any raise that suited could make still gives this person the sufficient odds to call given these scenarios. The problem is that if Suited had more chips and could actually manipulate the odds that this person was getting then maybe a raise would be appropriate (this fact is a much tougher debate then the debate on this hand which I believe is pretty much cut and dry). However, since he can't force his opponent out and the fact that his opponent will call a river card no matter what with how many chips he has left raising here is futile. Like stated previously by many people there must be a reason to raise. In this case there is NO REASON. If the board is a blank you push your chips in and the person with 3 aces calls, if the board pairs you check/fold. The initial impulse is to push your chips in on the turn when you have the best hand, but if you look deep enough you will find out that smooth calling is the only correct play.

[Suited_Up 2]

Hey guys, Smash is correct here.  I just read through the entire thread and couldn't find one person's reasoning why pushing on the turn is better than calling and seeing what hits on the river.  I can't see what benefit comes in this situation from pushing all-in on the turn.  Your opponent is going to call the all-in on the river anyway, so you might as well gather as much information as possible.   If I was in this situation with my tournament life at stake I can't say that I would have the presence of mind to just call and wait for the river, but it clearly is the correct play.

How about this reason?If I just flat call AGAIN.... then a blank comes on the river... He is very capable of folding the trip aces, because almost everyone at the table knew I had the straight. If I do it on the turn, confident I have the best hand, He will have to call and draw out on me, or call trying to catch me bluffing. Either way, he has to call to win the hand. I think he would have folded on the river if I flat called twice then bet huge on the river. This isn't some random player. He is a pro, I just am not sure who exactly. "Boston" he says his name is. Someone feel free to tell me his full name. Alan Boston possibly?