Super Deep Stacked 5/10 N L

[Acid_Knight 2]

5/10 NL at Bellagio ($1000 is the max buy-in) and I've been sitting for 2.5 hoursStacks:Acid: $4000Toolbox (BB): ~$1100Dan (UTG): $6000History/Reads:The BB is fairly straight forward and pretty bad. He overplays one pair type hands and has been cursing about his bad luck since he sat down. He's probably down like $1500 at this point. He is probably fairly suspect of me anytime that I put chips into the pot.Dan is a player I played with at the Rio a few days ago. He's constantly making moves, but he's a decent player who actually plays for a living. He's pretty aggressive and seems to pick his spots well. He's also been playing for like 24 straight hours at this point. He has a good idea what I'm capable of.Dan opens for $70 UTG, which is bigger than his normal raise and even a little large for the table. MP2 calls, I call on the button with J T and the BB comes along as well.Flop (4 players) $2859 8 K Everyone checks to me, I bet $200, the BB calls without any thought and Dan calls almost as quickly.Turn (4 players) $8859 8 K (3 )BB bets $600 (leaving like $280 behind) and Dan calls almost immediately. Acid ??What is my move and WTF does Dan have here?

[Money022 0]

Possibly KK or As Ks? I don't think I'd raise here, but calling isn't out of the question. You're calling $600 into a pot of nearly $2,100. The only question is, is your flush draw alive. I'd say call and re-evaluate on the turn. Worst case scenario is the flush completes, the BB goes all-in and Dan makes a huge raise.Honestly I'm lost and would be way over my head at this limit. You can probably ignore everything above. Very interested in the outcome though.

[Webslinger516 0]

My guess is that BB has something like KQ or KJ. Dan seems to have something like AK both spades. If so, then you have 8 clean outs, 2 of which give you a straight flush. I don't think you accomplish anything by raising here. i'd call.

[dgostate8 0]

I'm a donk, so i flat call here. Dan could easily have KK, AK, AsKs. We're 20% to the AsKs, 35% to AK off, and 30% to a set of kings. If he's got that, and assuming he could have something worse being that he's pulled moves before, the odds look right for continuing on. Whether or not to raise here is interesting because tool could have anything and if Dan has any of the above, you have no FE. Call and hope to hit and take the last 280 from tool who has no choice but to put it in, effectively calling $600 to win $2365.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Someone discuss the reverse implied odds of my hand here.

[Webslinger516 0]

Someone discuss the reverse implied odds of my hand here.

If a spade comes off and I'm right about Dan having AK spades, you're fawked.

[Naismith 0]

My first and current reaction to Dan's hand is that he has exactly AsKs. His range is pretty tight. He's certainly not slowplaying a set here after checking to Acid and watching his bet get called, especially knowing the original caller is donkalicious and will call off all his chips with top pair. Why let a good, tricky player like Acid come along for the ride with a huge hand when he can take the BB's money with very little risk? With AsKs, he flops a monster and decides to get a little tricky knowing his hand is huge and not terribly vulnerable. Acid bets out and then the BB calls. Now he's thinking Acid isn't betting into three people with nothing, so now he's not terribly certain his huge hand is ahead. When the donk bets the turn, he knows he's way ahead of his range and that the donk has committed himself. By calling the bet, he gets to see what Acid does behind him, knowing Acid probably has a big hand (bad for him) or a big draw (good for him).Okay, so looking at a best case scenario:BB has AK or 89 or whatever and Dan has KK without the spade, we're winning this 30 percent of the time. Worst case scenario:BB has KQ and Dan has QsKs.The fun part about the two scenarios is that our implied odds aren't huge in the best case scenario but our reverse implied odds are really stacktastic in the worst case scenario.I think we fold here and kick ourselves when the river is a Q and they both flip over sets and Dan says, "I put you on KQ, Acid, I would've stacked you if you didn't fold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"EDIT: Was writing before Acid posted his "someone reference reverse implied odds" post. I don't dance for anyone!

[Lavitz 0]

Haven't read replies but this spot is very tough. If you call and a spade peels then Dan is going to be aware that a flush is almost always in your range and you might not win much off him. However, even worse, if a spade peels a flush is ALSO in his range and if if a lot of money gets put in then he could very well have you killed. You have 8 clean outs to the nuts, and if you hit one of them then you will likely be making a lot of money because it's more disguised and it is much more unlikely Dan has same straight draw.Since there's not much behind the donk I think I can see laying this down on the basis we don't have much implied odds unless we hit a straight and even if our flush is good, some flush cards could certainly be dirty (K , 3 ) and fill up.Dan could have a hand like AKs or a set. I don't know what else is in his range but based on your description I'm not going to include any weaker hands because he calls a $600 bet on turn knowing that the villian who bet has no money behind to win if he is on some kind of draw and you are still to act and could reraise. So I think we have to throw out low flush draws, straight draws, and hands like KQ, KJ.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Someone discuss the reverse implied odds of my hand here.

Because the toolbox is pot-committed, the villain can't make a move on the river with air but he could try to make you lay down a smaller flush and still win the main pot with AK vs. KQ. Still, I think he has to give serious consideration that the hero is on the nut flush draw if he doesn't have it himself. We're really worried about how to play 7 cards. I'd be inclined to give him credit for a big flush on the river and not necessarily pay him off. On the other hand, we have positive implied odds if we hit the straight flush against the villain's 2nd or 3rd nuts. We might get something on the straight, but not nearly as much because of the protected pot (again).I think it's good enough odds to peel a river card, all things considered.

[Royal_Tour 0]

i read a bit of replies. i guess AsKs is capable. I kinda thougt KK right away. but then why wouldnt he raise the turn.do we know if Dan studies the game much? or is he just a guy who has played his way up to 5-10 live.?

[CobaltBlue 662]

Someone discuss the reverse implied odds of my hand here.

At face value, calling looks right. I see what you're saying with the RIO, but I'm still not sure I fold this. I think we're good enough to get away without too much damage if Dan ends up hitting a bigger flush. The boat cards we're worried about are Ks and 5s...but it'd be rather odd for Dan to show up with a set here. Meh...I suppose our implied odds are somewhat crappy. Dan's probably going to be reluctant to pay us off with a worse hand since we wouldn't ever really be bluffing given the BB's presence. I will note that we should basically consider BB's last $280 to already be in the pot though...so that helps the price a little.Here's what I got for us:

Board: 9s 8s Kh 3cDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	28.153%	  27.01% 	01.15% 			 18000 		  765.00   { JsTs }Hand 1: 	39.821%	  37.25% 	02.57% 			 24828 		 1714.50   { JJ+, 99-88, AKs, AsQs, KQs, JTs, AKo }Hand 2: 	32.026%	  29.51% 	02.52% 			 19668 		 1678.50   { 99-88, AKs, AsQs, As7s, As3s, KTs+, JTs, AKo, KJo+ }

I think we're getting ~4.5-1 on the call if we assume BB's moving on the river and Dan's calling (I think that's a pretty reasonable assumption). Heck, this may sound crazy...but why not just rely on our 8 nut outs and then be very prepared to muck to any other flush/pair river that prompts Dan to action? Additionally, you realize that our straight flush outs are potentially bingo cards if he is holding onto a bigger flush draw. I think those implied odds might compensate for the RIO.If we hit one of our outs on the river, BB's probably moving in. If Dan has us beat, he'd likely raise...so we'll be able to overcall if he flat calls without too much difficulty. I think our position helps considerably the more that I think about it.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I'm a little surprised nobody's mentioned the ignorant end of the straight flush draw yet. He's playing this hand very much like we're playing ours, which leads me to believe a hand like 67s, 57s, 56s, etc (straight + flush draw) is right in the mix. Regardless, I make this call. Our flush outs only have to be good SOME of the time for this call to be very very very correct. And Cobalt makes a GREAT point about our bingo outs. if the Qs rolls off on the river, and Dan raises to 700, we'll probably get paid big-time here.Doesn't matter, a seven is rolling off on the turn no matter what, so I insta-callWang

[Naismith 0]

I'm a little surprised nobody's mentioned the ignorant end of the straight flush draw yet. He's playing this hand very much like we're playing ours, which leads me to believe a hand like 67s, 57s, 56s, etc (straight + flush draw) is right in the mix. Regardless, I make this call. Our flush outs only have to be good SOME of the time for this call to be very very very correct. And Cobalt makes a GREAT point about our bingo outs. if the Qs rolls off on the river, and Dan raises to 700, we'll probably get paid big-time here.Doesn't matter, a seven is rolling off on the turn no matter what, so I insta-callWang

The reason why I don't put him on a drawing hand with no immediate show down value is because he's an aggressive player that raised preflop. I think this player bets this flop ~100 percent of the time with a straight, flush or combo draw.

[Lavitz 0]

I'm a little surprised nobody's mentioned the ignorant end of the straight flush draw yet. He's playing this hand very much like we're playing ours, which leads me to believe a hand like 67s, 57s, 56s, etc (straight + flush draw) is right in the mix. Regardless, I make this call. Our flush outs only have to be good SOME of the time for this call to be very very very correct. And Cobalt makes a GREAT point about our bingo outs. if the Qs rolls off on the river, and Dan raises to 700, we'll probably get paid big-time here.Doesn't matter, a seven is rolling off on the turn no matter what, so I insta-callWang

Turn was a rag 3.And I discount hands like 57s and 56s because he raised UTG and seems like a solid player. Most of the time people won't raise these hands UTG.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Turn was a rag 3.And I discount hands like 57s and 56s because he raised UTG and seems like a solid player. Most of the time people won't raise these hands UTG.

Oh, fuck off. I meant the river.

[linkwood 0]

Don't have too much more to contribute, as much has been already said. But, I have a hard time putting Dan on a hand here because of the quick calls. Would he just call so quickly with a set? Wouldn't he want to put in a raise somewhere by this time? The only hands that make sense are nut flush draws, perhaps even AsKs played in a weird way. AA wouldn't make sense because you would expect a bet or raise somewhere. So I'm really lost as to what Dan has, but it seems like his mostly likely hand is a nut flush draw of sorts. Anyone else think differently?And, if that is his most likey hand, would we then want to perhaps raise to push Dan out of the hand and buy outs?

[Webslinger516 0]

So I'm really lost as to what Dan has, but it seems like his mostly likely hand is a nut flush draw of sorts. Anyone else think differently?And, if that is his most likey hand, would we then want to perhaps raise to push Dan out of the hand and buy outs?

I don't think a raise is good here... we don't want Dan to re-reraise and put us in a really bad spot. If he does have AK spades, he might just push and we're in deep trouble. I think it's either a call or a fold.

[Verdimme 0]

Interesting hand.I agree with others that said his hand looks alot like AsKs. Slowplaying a set or something else here just seems plain bad. With AsKs he can do some nice potcontrol while not being terribly afraid to get outdrawn. He might play it this way since he and Acid both are deep, and he doesn't want to inflate the pot just yet.If I was playing trying to represent 99,88,98 would look incredibly tempting. If you raise here, your hand looks a lot like those hands. Add in some draws and your range looks very dangerous to him. You know that you would never shop up in this spot with air or K type of hands, and he probably knows too.You say he knows what you are capable off...are you capable to pull this move (raising the turn), and does he know that? I think your play depends a whole lot on whether Dan can lay down AsKs here vs. a raise.If you get this HU in this spot vs. the most likely K from the donk, we definately have enough equity for our draw.Just my thoughts, I don't have a whole lot experience with playing this deep.

[mtdesmoines 3]

5/10 NL at Bellagio ($1000 is the max buy-in) and I've been sitting for 2.5 hoursStacks:Acid: $4000Toolbox (BB): ~$1100Dan (UTG): $6000History/Reads:The BB is fairly straight forward and pretty bad. He overplays one pair type hands and has been cursing about his bad luck since he sat down. He's probably down like $1500 at this point. He is probably fairly suspect of me anytime that I put chips into the pot.Dan is a player I played with at the Rio a few days ago. He's constantly making moves, but he's a decent player who actually plays for a living. He's pretty aggressive and seems to pick his spots well. He's also been playing for like 24 straight hours at this point. He has a good idea what I'm capable of.Dan opens for $70 UTG, which is bigger than his normal raise and even a little large for the table. MP2 calls, I call on the button with J T and the BB comes along as well.Flop (4 players) $2859 8 K Everyone checks to me, I bet $200, the BB calls without any thought and Dan calls almost as quickly.Turn (4 players) $8859 8 K (3 )BB bets $600 (leaving like $280 behind) and Dan calls almost immediately. Acid ??What is my move and WTF does Dan have here?

Dan's got KQs and villain might be ahead with AK

[mtdesmoines 3]

Someone discuss the reverse implied odds of my hand here.

BB doesn't have enough money for you to play this out. Dan does, which means you're playing against Dan, which I'm not confident you want to be doing. But I don't know that you want to mix this up with Dan unless you can pull of one of your few clean outs.

[mtdesmoines 3]

But, I have a hard time putting Dan on a hand here because of the quick calls. Would he just call so quickly with a set? Wouldn't he want to put in a raise somewhere by this time?

Dan wouldn't let this board mature if he had a set.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I fold figuring that one of them has a bigger draw and the other is just beating me. I also figure that I can't get paid if I hit anyway.The BB checks dark on the river and Dan puts him all in dark. The river is the 8 and the BB folds K Q face up and Dan shows A K

[Webslinger516 0]

I fold figuring that one of them has a bigger draw and the other is just beating me. I also figure that I can't get paid if I hit anyway.The BB checks dark on the river and Dan puts him all in dark. The river is the 8 and the BB folds K Q face up and Dan shows A K

Seriously? BB folded with only $280 behind on a ~$2k pot? Interesting. Good fold, I was correct on my read that BB had KQ and Dan had AK, but I wonder why Dan didn't raise to protect against flush draws? Did he just call hoping a spade wouldn't peel off? His non-raising made me really think he had two spades in this spot. Given that neither of them had spade draws, was this a good fold in the long run?

[LongLiveYorke 38]

I fold figuring that one of them has a bigger draw and the other is just beating me. I also figure that I can't get paid if I hit anyway.

I'm not sure that I would fold for $600 in a nearly $2,000 pot with a draw this big, and for several reasons. Yes, often one of them has a bigger draw than we do, but we have many types of draws (as has already been mentioned) and we know for sure that 8 of them will give us the nuts (as well as our bingo straight flush outs that have been mentioned). So even with a higher flush draw out there, we will still have straight outs and will know that we're ahead when we hit them. And our flush draw isn't always dominated.In terms of implied odds or reverse implied odds, you're correct that we will get very little money if nobody else has the flush draw and we end up hitting our draw. But we're getting such good odds on the turn that we don't really need implied odds to make our turn call correct (more or less). I also believe that because our hand is so transparent, our reverse implied odds aren't that threatening. Meaning, because we've played this so much like a draw (if we call on the turn), we can assume that our skilled opponent recognizes that we have a draw here most of the time. So, if the draw hits and he comes out betting, we have a good inclination that we are beat. In position and with a transparent hand, we can control our reverse implied odds, especially knowing that we (Acid Knight) are a great player and a good reader. So, if we are bet into on the river after the flush hits, it would be pretty crazy to raise. If we are overbet into on the river, we can even get away from the hand. I think we can call on this turn and not worry too terribly about reverse odds.

[David_Nicoson 1]

I fold figuring that one of them has a bigger draw and the other is just beating me. I also figure that I can't get paid if I hit anyway.The BB checks dark on the river and Dan puts him all in dark. The river is the 8 and the BB folds K Q face up and Dan shows A K

If we don't want to play in this guy's pots, maybe we should fold preflop.