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Bottom 2, Scary Board


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#1 mln_falcon

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 09:37 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (4 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: ITH Forums)SB ($95.35)BB ($41.80)Hero ($52.60)Button ($108.75)Preflop: Hero is UTG with :D, :club:. Hero raises to $1.5, Button calls $1.50, 2 folds.Flop: ($3.75) :D, :D, :D (2 players)Hero bets $2, Button raises to $8.5, Hero?Plan for hand?

#2 Zach6668

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 09:41 PM

Well. Couple options.Reraise, and call a shove.Call, and reevaluate on the turn.I don't think I can fold at this point.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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#3 NoBBiR

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 10:34 PM

It's really gay that we are like never ahead in this situation - we're either almost always flipping or destroyed.However, I think I'd call and check to the guy on the turn. If it is pretty much a dud (meaning like no spade, no queen, no king, no 8, no 7) I might be compelled to go all the way in the hand.If we boat we're obviously not folding, and there is a terrible card I'd probably be going away to another big bet.Blah.
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#4 Zach6668

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 10:36 PM

Look at the size of his raise.I don't think we're always crushed here, this could easily just be like AJ or KJ or something. Even QJ, we've got a decent edge.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#5 Royal_Tour

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 12:37 AM

I usually check OOP in spots like this. Basically because of this exact reason, he could be semi-bluffin any draw here, or J,9 J,10 a made straight, or worse he could be overplaying J,x and since we're OOP we might actually end up letting go the best hand.I vote for taking back the 2.00 bet and check/call.



#6 mtdesmoines

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 05:30 AM

View Postmln_falcon, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 9:37 PM, said:

Plan for hand?
I like to APPLY the pressure with bottom two. I DON'T like getting pressure APPLIED to me with bottom two.
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#7 Acid_Knight

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 07:42 AM

View Postmtdesmoines, on Monday, November 5th, 2007, 5:30 AM, said:

I like to APPLY the pressure with bottom two. I DON'T like getting pressure APPLIED to me with bottom two.
Do you like flopping 2 pair? If you're gonna bet the flop, bet the pot.We're OOP and there are only 4 good turn cards for us. Zach, I don't see anything wrong with folding here. I don't love it, but if we call, we're c/f on most turns to strong bets and we're basically hoping that he checks behind with his KJ/QJ type of hands. It's pretty thin.

#8 krup24

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 08:46 AM

Yea I hate your flop bet as well. You raised pf and flopped 2 pair on a draw heavy board. I mean you have to bet the pot at least. I actually will overbet here quite often.As played it's a tough one. I hate waiting for safe cards. Since you are minimally invested I can fold here and move on. An option is also to call the reraise "wait for a safe card" and b/c, b/f, c/c, c/r.
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#9 Zach6668

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 09:35 AM

I despise NL. I don't flop 2 pair nearly often enough to ever consider folding it.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#10 Acid_Knight

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 10:28 AM

View PostZach6668, on Monday, November 5th, 2007, 9:35 AM, said:

I despise NL. I don't flop 2 pair nearly often enough to ever consider folding it.
Lose your stack a couple of times and you realize that you're never in good shape here and you just move on.Really, if we had position, it'd be different. If I had a good read on my opponent, it'd be different. I think the default play in a vaccuum here should be to just dump this P.O.S.

#11 navybuttons

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 10:39 AM

View Postmln_falcon, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 9:37 PM, said:

Plan for hand?
i say call. bet/fold a blank turn. check/fold a super scary one.
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#12 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 11:06 AM

Fold. You may be ahead here... but usually not way ahead. There are just too many bullets to dodge here if you are ahead and you're OOP.
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#13 mln_falcon

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 02:14 PM

Yeah, I think I like check call on the flop. I had no idea how to play hand oop, so I folded after tanking. I figured if folding was a mistake it was a much smaller one than any I'd make later in the hand.

#14 Acid_Knight

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 02:56 PM

View Postmln_falcon, on Tuesday, November 6th, 2007, 2:14 PM, said:

Yeah, I think I like check call on the flop.
C/C the flop is horrendous. You raised with this hand, you hit a good flop, so you gotta bet. Just bet more next time. There's nothing wrong with folding, but have a plan for how you'll play the hand if you get called/raised when you're OOP next time.

View Postmln_falcon, on Tuesday, November 6th, 2007, 2:14 PM, said:

I figured if folding was a mistake it was a much smaller one than any I'd make later in the hand.
I really like this sentence.

#15 DonkSlayer

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 03:25 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Tuesday, November 6th, 2007, 5:56 PM, said:

C/C the flop is horrendous. You raised with this hand, you hit a good flop, so you gotta bet. Just bet more next time. There's nothing wrong with folding, but have a plan for how you'll play the hand if you get called/raised when you're OOP next time.
I politely disagree and move we change your sentence to "...C/c the flop when you were the preflop aggressor is horrendous, most of the time, unless you have 9-10 and the board comes out like so."There's nothing wrong with c/c here because I would use an extension of the concept of "only hands that call you have you beat." I would say, in this situation, only hands that call you have you beat or are drawing very live, and you are OOP, so all turns not a 9 or 10 make you feel no better about your hand. C/c would also help you keep/strengthen a TAG or lion image as well. If you bet the pot on this flop and get called, you almost have to check a scary turn unless you think the villain is a total fish and it behooves you to get all your money in. If you c/c the flop and the turn comes an A/K, you can c/f with the rest of the table having to believe you could've had 88 as often as you had 22/9-10, instead of, you betting the pot, getting raised and having to fold OR betting the pot and having to c/f the turn, that you probably had something weak like 9-10, 33, etc.
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#16 Acid_Knight

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 03:31 PM

4 handed, he will certainly be called by worse hands. The risk of giving a free card on this board seems so ridiuclously high that it is basically the sole reason why I say that a c/c is so bad. We risk giving a free card if he checks behind. We learn nothing about his hand and we probably check to him on any turn as well, which basically invites him to outdraw us if he was actually behind.

#17 DonkSlayer

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 03:43 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Tuesday, November 6th, 2007, 6:31 PM, said:

4 handed, he will certainly be called by worse hands. The risk of giving a free card on this board seems so ridiuclously high that it is basically the sole reason why I say that a c/c is so bad. We risk giving a free card if he checks behind. We learn nothing about his hand and we probably check to him on any turn as well, which basically invites him to outdraw us if he was actually behind.
The only had that I can put villain on that it would be awful for us to give a free card to is 78/88. I can't see the villain folding any spade draw, AQ, AJ, and anything that is already ahead. and I don't think he plays AK this way very often. Given that, I know it seems like we're playing scared, but if we bet and get called, we are much more committed to this pot with a hand that is slightly ahead or very, very behind.
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#18 mln_falcon

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 05:02 PM

Remember I have no history on this guy, which makes playing OOP much more hard. AK how do you play AA here?

#19 NoBBiR

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 05:08 PM

View Postmln_falcon, on Tuesday, November 6th, 2007, 5:02 PM, said:

Remember I have no history on this guy, which makes playing OOP much more hard. AK how do you play AA here?
I think that would depend on if we had the ace of spades. I'd probably play it the same as 910 here, imo.
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#20 AndyZ28

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 06:09 PM

The last time I had this hand with this same exact flop(minus the flush draw) villain had KQ. I bet the pot and I got raised and it just ended badly. Needless to say, I've learned my lesson with this hand.




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