Defending The Button

[GaYeled 0]

I'm kind of embarassed to post this because I think I misplayed it badly. The only thing that I did right in this hand is fold on the flop. But...I did have reasons for doing what I did so maybe it wasn't a bad move (My personality is that if something doesn't workout, I think it's a bad move...but not if I get in ahead and get outdrawn...just if i make a bluff that's called or things of that sort)...the CO is a very consistent LP raiser and I did not defend my button yet because I kept getting trash like 5T, 6Q and so on. Then I got A8 and Decided to defend my button but fold if I'm shown heavy resistence...what do you think of the hand? btw...i hate defending with A rags and NEVER defend my blinds in a cash game with A rags but the button is easier because I have position and lots of fold equity. My thoughts are that I was representing JJ< and he simply could not get away from an over pocket even though he knew that most of the time I have an overpair to his overpair...even if he's got overs/FD, he's ahead in the hand.Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)UTG ($158.20)MP ($287.45)Hero ($208.10)SB ($141.25)BB ($354.90)Preflop: Hero is Button with A, 8. 1 fold, MP raises to $6, Hero raises to $20, 2 folds, MP calls $14.Flop: ($43) 8, 4, 5(2 players)MP checks, Hero bets $40, MP raises to $163, Hero folds.Final Pot: $246

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

I honestly think that the concept of "defending" the Button and Blinds is vastly overrated. It makes no real sense to me. Yeah, you want to play our position, but "definding" the position is just silly to me - especially when it comes to over-playing questionable hands.Specifically regarding this hand, raising the bet with A8o isn't horrible, but it isn't that great either. Coming from MP the $6 looks like it could be a real hand, at least a limp eliminator. The $40 bet with TPTK is fine as is the Fold to the CR.

[docnuclear 0]

I'm kind of embarassed to post this because I think I misplayed it badly. The only thing that I did right in this hand is fold on the flop. But...I did have reasons for doing what I did so maybe it wasn't a bad move (My personality is that if something doesn't workout, I think it's a bad move...but not if I get in ahead and get outdrawn...just if i make a bluff that's called or things of that sort)...the CO is a very consistent LP raiser and I did not defend my button yet because I kept getting trash like 5T, 6Q and so on. Then I got A8 and Decided to defend my button but fold if I'm shown heavy resistence...what do you think of the hand? btw...i hate defending with A rags and NEVER defend my blinds in a cash game with A rags but the button is easier because I have position and lots of fold equity. My thoughts are that I was representing JJ< and he simply could not get away from an over pocket even though he knew that most of the time I have an overpair to his overpair...even if he's got overs/FD, he's ahead in the hand.Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)UTG ($158.20)MP ($287.45)Hero ($208.10)SB ($141.25)BB ($354.90)Preflop: Hero is Button with A, 8. 1 fold, MP raises to $6, Hero raises to $20, 2 folds, MP calls $14.Flop: ($43) 8, 4, 5(2 players)MP checks, Hero bets $40, MP raises to $163, Hero folds.Final Pot: $246

I think that once you decide to defend your button you played it fine, you might wanna bet just a little bit less on the flop but I think it's pretty standard

[David_Nicoson 1]

Abstractions make me nervous, because it's easy to start putting too much value in them as opposed to making +EV plays. I'm thinking of phrases like these:

1. Shifting gears.
2. Protecting your hand.
3. Defining your hand.
4. Defending your blind.
5. Defending your button.

There's nothing wrong with any of these thoughts, but we can't lose track of simpler ideas like betting for value and bluffing. Are we semibluffing preflop? I'm thinking you want him to fold, right? Even if you think he's running us over, I think we still need to fold preflop.

equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 59.873%  58.37% 01.50% 	   14693282100 	377172774.00   { A8o }Hand 1: 40.127%  38.63% 01.50% 		9723241152 	377172774.00   { random }

I really don't know where we are after the flop. He could be making a play with a little something and a draw. Do we have any reads on how he might play postflop?

[eroc824 0]

defending the button? i dont know if you have to do this kind of play....i want people to be attacking my button because when i have suited connectors, small pairs, and even big hands i see a lot of flops with these people. Here is my reasoning: 1 they are going to continuation(most of the time)- so if you hit smooth call blah blah etc. 2 Say youre just not hitting and seeing those flops. Player starts to think you are weak and will do it more often with weaker hands and think he can push you off even if you call the flop- this can lead to winning a huge hand when you opponent has a weak/moderate hand. 3 We all know position is a key and we get to see how this player acts each time its his turn- i.e. we see a lot of flops we see a lot of tedencies, maybe leading to a tell and exploitation of this player. 4 Us constantly calling his raise and seeing flops is going to piss him off.(I know it does, i do it, and it works on me sometimes-something i need to work on) This will slow this person down and maybe stop him from raising so much in the CO...basically accomplishing the task you set out-defending the button.

[nogobusto 0]

I think the hand is played fine, but I don't like 3-betting with ace rag. I'd rather do it with 89s or something. High+Low card hands are pretty bad.If this is your first 3-bet of his LP raises then this will usually work unless he hits the flop pretty hard. This is a set or FD+overs really often, those hands are most likely to be willing to play OOP against your 3-bet. 88, 55, AQdd, etc etc.I wouldn't be too worried about this play. A8 isn't the best hand to do this with, but it's still a pretty high percentage play. Just be aware of what everyone else at the table thinks about your LP 3-bets; IE they're not going to give you as much credit after this fold :)edit: eroc - I think this play is not so much "I don't want him raising my button, so I'm gonna punish him" as much as it's "His range is super wide right now and trying to muscle him off of his hand in position will work often enough to be +EV on this specific hand." At least that's my attitude most of the time I do something like this against a very active LP raiser.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Defenders play in limit games and in tournaments. In NLHE, our profit does not come from one small bet that is gained here or one that is saved over there. It comes from chopping away, starting with the best hand and making sure that we're always taking down the BIG pots.If he wants to raise in LP, then let him do so. You have nothing to defend on the button but your position, and that hasn't cost you a nickel. One thing that you have to consider is that once he calls your raise, he has something pretty good becuase he's calling a big reraise OOP.Just wait for a better spot. You'll have the button once every 5 hands and you'll have plenty of chances to snap off the aggressive players.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Indeed, the best thing about being on the button is the late position means you don't actually have to "defend" anything. You can get away without any harm. That, to me, is the power of the button.

[Jordan 1]

meh, when i played 2/4nl back in the day, especially on a smaller site called cdpoker...i used to "defend" my button liberally against certain regs.regs being the guys that I knew were opening often from the CO when folded to them...i'd routinely call in pos, or re-raise and do something on the flop...It really isn't a needed play tho, unless you know your opponents well...I'd only do it to guys that I knew well and knew I could mess with them. Worked out for me...just mixing up my game some here and there....and if that's what you're doing here that's fine...Flop I bet less, 25-30 range is fine...and idk man, i may even stack off here depending on what he has been like post flop...since you bet so much he may think you're trying to buy it...other option of course is he has like TT or something. - Jordan

[Roberts2003 0]

theres nothing wrong with 3 betting on the button if you feel like theres a good chance you can win the pot there. No one says you have to do it, and you dont lose any $ by not doing it. But it often will work and hopefully it will set you up with an image that lets you get paid off huge when you have that big hand. Acid Knight, I am going to have to disagree with you when you say that the profits in NL only come from the Big pots. If you are constantly winning the medium pots by playing very aggressively, people want to play back at you and will do it with less then premium hands. Basically, going after a lot of medium pots and making plays where you dont have to do them helps your image and sets up that later huge pot where no one will believe you have the hand.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Acid Knight, I am going to have to disagree with you when you say that the profits in NL only come from the Big pots. If you are constantly winning the medium pots by playing very aggressively, people want to play back at you and will do it with less then premium hands. Basically, going after a lot of medium pots and making plays where you dont have to do them helps your image and sets up that later huge pot where no one will believe you have the hand.

I never said that it comes from only winning the big pots. I was just pointing out that it's not like LHE where if you are routinely missing a bet here or there, that makes the difference between being a long term winner and a long term loser. I said that you should chop away and make sure you're always winning the big pots.Basically I was trying to point out that in NLHE, you can give up what might be small edges and make small mistakes and still br profitable as long as you're not making the big mistakes in the big pots. Hence, "defending" the button or your blinds and giving up one BB in NLHE has little impact on your overall performance as a winner or a loser in the game whereas in LHE, if you routinely give up on your blind or let the player in the CO raise and attack the blinds when it's your button, you will have trouble beating the game in the long run. I guess that's the point I was trying to make.

[Jordan 1]

I never said that it comes from only winning the big pots. I was just pointing out that it's not like LHE where if you are routinely missing a bet here or there, that makes the difference between being a long term winner and a long term loser. I said that you should chop away and make sure you're always winning the big pots.Basically I was trying to point out that in NLHE, you can give up what might be small edges and make small mistakes and still br profitable as long as you're not making the big mistakes in the big pots. Hence, "defending" the button or your blinds and giving up one BB in NLHE has little impact on your overall performance as a winner or a loser in the game whereas in LHE, if you routinely give up on your blind or let the player in the CO raise and attack the blinds when it's your button, you will have trouble beating the game in the long run. I guess that's the point I was trying to make.

good explanation hurr for the donks like zach.- Jordan

[Zach6668 513]

good explanation hurr for the donks like zach.- Jordan

lol, how did I get dragged into this?

[Jordan 1]

lol, how did I get dragged into this?

standard?- Jordan

[Royal_Tour 0]

theres nothing wrong with 3 betting on the button if you feel like theres a good chance you can win the pot there. No one says you have to do it, and you dont lose any $ by not doing it. But it often will work and hopefully it will set you up with an image that lets you get paid off huge when you have that big hand. Acid Knight, I am going to have to disagree with you when you say that the profits in NL only come from the Big pots. If you are constantly winning the medium pots by playing very aggressively, people want to play back at you and will do it with less then premium hands. Basically, going after a lot of medium pots and making plays where you dont have to do them helps your image and sets up that later huge pot where no one will believe you have the hand.

I never said that it comes from only winning the big pots. I was just pointing out that it's not like LHE where if you are routinely missing a bet here or there, that makes the difference between being a long term winner and a long term loser. I said that you should chop away and make sure you're always winning the big pots.Basically I was trying to point out that in NLHE, you can give up what might be small edges and make small mistakes and still br profitable as long as you're not making the big mistakes in the big pots. Hence, "defending" the button or your blinds and giving up one BB in NLHE has little impact on your overall performance as a winner or a loser in the game whereas in LHE, if you routinely give up on your blind or let the player in the CO raise and attack the blinds when it's your button, you will have trouble beating the game in the long run. I guess that's the point I was trying to make.

I agree almost 100% with Acid here. and his other post.

standard?- Jordan

This is teh_LAWL