blind stealing

[gregory 0]

any good literature of this important move in tournament play?? I feel this is my problem with my tournament play, I'm always in the top 10% in chips until we get down to crunch time, when the blinds get heavy. My tight play really gets me wittled down.Example: 500 person tournament, 50 pay. I'm usually in the 25-50 ies in chip count coming up too 100 people left.I'm playing well, but i feel my post-flop play is far better than pre-flop. I'm sick of making tons of these 15%-20% finishes, and this would probably be my main problem. I don't really do it, just play tight and roll with what i have.

[Vade 0]

I liked the clip they did on blind stealing at last week's WPTIt's something that I definitely need to work on

[faketree 0]

you answered your own question.do it. you don't need literature about it. if it folds around to you in LP, raise. if your post-flop play is better than your pre-flop, like you said, you shouldn't have a problem playing when you do get called by one of the blinds.if you get reraised, muck it. sometimes i'll show my big hands when i do that to give the impression that i'm always raising with a hand. if you get caught, big deal, it happens. move on and start stealing them again the next round if you can.raise, raise, raise.if you don't know what to do, raise.steal those blinds and antes, they're yours.

[Deepkoncntrtion 0]

This is an extremely long post....it was originally written to answer a question on the two plus two forum....just take what u need from it....After the first hour or so, tourney play becomes less and less about the cards and more about situations. What you hold is of relatively less importance than how many chips you have in front of you vs your opponent and the precise stage of the tourney you're in. First hour you should basically be playing solid poker. Blind stealing is of secondary importance. Come in with those speculative hands with high implied odds in LP, but otherwise just play solid. Sounds like you're doing this, but to get those extra chips you have to resort to some deceptive play. Setting traps, inducing bluffs - Don't just bet your strong hands and check fold your misses and slowplay your monsters, those betting patterns will get picked up on. Say you have top pair AK on a A86 board with a two flush. You strongly bet the flop and turn (a brick) out of position and get called. River comes another brick, no flush. I would check here in many instances and call a bet. If you bet, you're not going to get called by the missed draw and you may get raised by a hand that was trapping you with a set or two pair. You may miss a value bet from a player with an inferior Ace who ends up checking behind on the river, but against aggressive players I like to check and let them bluff at it, or save myself some chips by not getting raised when they do have me beat. This kind of bluff inducinig is a real stack builder. When you have position you'll sometimes get more chips if you check behind on a flop that hits you with something as simple as top pair, fair kicker but has a two flush. Most say bet and "make draws pay", but when HU in a tourney, you can risk a free card as it's not likely that he has that exact draw. Try to induce the bluff against a hand that missed completely on the next card. Checking and playing passively like this works well against overly aggressive players. Since most of the time when you check, you fold to a bet, they'll take a check for weakness so you should check behind even only moderately strong hands as well as your monsters. Making draws pay is not nearly as important a concept in your typical HU matchup in NLHE as it is in your typical multiway pots in limit ring games. So obviously bet strong if against more than one opponent. Blind stealing - Once the blinds get to 50/100, then you need to open up and start stealing. As others have suggested, this means just open raising when it gets to you in LMP/LP with just about anything. Not everytime, but enough to at least keep pace. Sometimes you don't get a lot of chances as there are raises ahead of you by aggressive players. Middle stages is all about stealing so you can't just wait for cards or you'll get ground down. You don't always have to have it folded to you to steal either. Sometimes you'll get one of those guys who limps too much looking for multiway action. You'll know he's doing it with a moderate hand since he's done it before and check-folded the flop. I often take a "no limping on my button" attitude and will raise any 2 on the button and watch him and the blinds fold and pick up a nice pot. Firing second barrel - When you do get called by one of the blinds you often have to lay out a good sized bet even if the flop misses you. That can be scary when you were stealing with 75o and the flop comes A8Q, but often that board is just as scary or more so for your oppoenent. You'll get him to fold hands like medium pocket pairs in these situations. You pick up even nicer pots when you have the guts to fire out again. And if you get check-raised, easy fold. You have to be careful sometimes and check behind in these situations and just check and fold on the turn as a check raise may cost you too much. You can't fire out at every single flop as a savvy player is looking to put the big check-raise on you. That, and you want to set up later plays for when you do flop a big hand and induce a turn bet by your foe by checking behind. However, I usually err on the side of firing out on any flop when checked to in these situations. Try this in your next low buyin tourney as an experiment. Once you're into the 2nd hour with an above average stack and you're not in any <10BB all-in or fold mode, try raising everytime it's folded to you on SB, button, CO, CO+1 and even CO+2. Often you'll find the players behind you to be very tight and passively trying to survive and you'll pick up tons of blinds. Finally, they catch on to your bullying ways and stop waiting for AK and play back at you with A9o. Hopefully, that's the time you have AK or a big pair and bust them. One caveat to this experiment: don't steal with garbage from a stack so short that if he moves in you're obliged by odds to call. You're just asking to double them up and you don't really want to show your stealing hands. And don't try to bully a LAG guy who has 10X your chips. And don't do it five times in a row when it's folded to you on a real tight table...well you get the idea, do it when the situation calls for it. Semi-bluffing - Another place to get aggressive is semi-bluffing. Don't call with draws as you might early when getting pot odds, raise with them. This is generally for HU situations, which will be the vast majority of the time. There's a good chance your opponent is just bluffing at the pot too and missed, so you'll get a lot of lay downs. And if called, you always have your draw to fall back on. Blind defense - Another place to get aggressive in the late going is blind defense. You're seeing it suggested here that you steal with a lot of nothing. Well, others are doing it to you when you're in the blinds, so you have to make them back off. If you're just passively giving up your blinds, or calling and folding on the flop often, then you're just asking for misery. Sometimes you have to play back at the stealer by moving in on them. Sometimes you should do it with some marginal hands, too. Going all-in with 76s is not something you want to do very often, but you have to send a message that you're not to be F-ed with. If you do make a "backoff" stand with a moderate hand like this, try to do it with a hand where if you're called, at least your hand is live. So I'd probably rather have 76s than K7o. Another blind defense tactic is the stop-n-go. Call the steal raisers bet and fire out a good sized bet on any flop. Again, doesn't matter what your cards are, you're just hoping the stealer missed and put him on the defensive. Representing hands - Every once in awhile you want to represent a hand you don't have and play it like you would if you had that hand. So a club draw on the board and you aint got no clubs. Play it like you made a flush when a third club hits. Again, this is a HU only type play, not for multiway pots and is to be used sparingly. But it's another way to pick up chips when you don't have the cards to back them up.

[NL_Pro 0]

Good Post :!:

[Thumper 0]

What I use is simple intimadation... a nice 9mm Glock... doesn't even have to be loaded

[SplashMaster 0]

This is an extremely long post....it was originally written to answer a question on the two plus two forum....just take what u need from it....After the first hour or so, tourney play becomes less and less about the cards and more about situations. What you hold is of relatively less importance than how many chips you have in front of you vs your opponent and the precise stage of the tourney you're in. First hour you should basically be playing solid poker. Blind stealing is of secondary importance. Come in with those speculative hands with high implied odds in LP, but otherwise just play solid. Sounds like you're doing this, but to get those extra chips you have to resort to some deceptive play. Setting traps, inducing bluffs - Don't just bet, bet, bet your strong hands and check fold your misses and slowplay your monsters, those betting patterns will get picked up on. Say you have top pair AK on a A86 board with a two flush. You strongly bet the flop and turn (a brick) out of position and get called. River comes another brick, no flush. I would check here in many instances and call a bet. If you bet, you're not going to get called by the missed draw and you may get raised by a hand that was trapping you with a set or two pair. You may miss a value bet from a player with an inferior Ace who ends up checking behind on the river, but against aggressive players I like to check and let them bluff at it, or save myself some chips by not getting raised when they do have me beat. This kind of bluff inducinig is a real stack builder. When you have position you'll sometimes get more chips if you check behind on a flop that hits you with something as simple as top pair, fair kicker but has a two flush. Most say bet and "make draws pay", but when HU in a tourney, you can risk a free card as it's not likely that he has that exact draw. Try to induce the bluff against a hand that missed completely on the next card. Checking and playing passively like this works well against overly aggressive players. Since most of the time when you check, you fold to a bet, they'll take a check for weakness so you should check behind even only moderately strong hands as well as your monsters. Making draws pay is not nearly as important a concept in your typical HU matchup in NLHE as it is in your typical multiway pots in limit ring games. So obviously bet strong if against more than one opponent. Blind stealing - Once the blinds get to 50/100, then you need to open up and start stealing. As others have suggested, this means just open raising when it gets to you in LMP/LP with just about anything. Not everytime, but enough to at least keep pace. Sometimes you don't get a lot of chances as there are raises ahead of you by aggressive players. Middle stages is all about stealing so you can't just wait for cards or you'll get ground down. You don't always have to have it folded to you to steal either. Sometimes you'll get one of those guys who limps too much looking for multiway action. You'll know he's doing it with a moderate hand since he's done it before and check-folded the flop. I often take a "no limping on my button" attitude and will raise any 2 on the button and watch him and the blinds fold and pick up a nice pot. Firing second barrel - When you do get called by one of the blinds you often have to lay out a good sized bet even if the flop misses you. That can be scary when you were stealing with 75o and the flop comes A8Q, but often that board is just as scary or more so for your oppoenent. You'll get him to fold hands like medium pocket pairs in these situations. You pick up even nicer pots when you have the guts to fire out again. And if you get check-raised, easy fold. You have to be careful sometimes and check behind in these situations and just check and fold on the turn as a check raise may cost you too much. You can't fire out at every single flop as a savvy player is looking to put the big check-raise on you. That, and you want to set up later plays for when you do flop a big hand and induce a turn bet by your foe by checking behind. However, I usually err on the side of firing out on any flop when checked to in these situations. Try this in your next low buyin tourney as an experiment. Once you're into the 2nd hour with an above average stack and you're not in any <10BB all-in or fold mode, try raising everytime it's folded to you on SB, button, CO, CO+1 and even CO+2. Often you'll find the players behind you to be very tight and passively trying to survive and you'll pick up tons of blinds. Finally, they catch on to your bullying ways and stop waiting for AK and play back at you with A9o. Hopefully, that's the time you have AK or a big pair and bust them. One caveat to this experiment: don't steal with garbage from a stack so short that if he moves in you're obliged by odds to call. You're just asking to double them up and you don't really want to show your stealing hands. And don't try to bully a LAG guy who has 10X your chips. And don't do it five times in a row when it's folded to you on a real tight table...well you get the idea, do it when the situation calls for it. Semi-bluffing - Another place to get aggressive is semi-bluffing. Don't call with draws as you might early when getting pot odds, raise with them. This is generally for HU situations, which will be the vast majority of the time. There's a good chance your opponent is just bluffing at the pot too and missed, so you'll get a lot of lay downs. And if called, you always have your draw to fall back on. Blind defense - Another place to get aggressive in the late going is blind defense. You're seeing it suggested here that you steal with a lot of nothing. Well, others are doing it to you when you're in the blinds, so you have to make them back off. If you're just passively giving up your blinds, or calling and folding on the flop often, then you're just asking for misery. Sometimes you have to play back at the stealer by moving in on them. Sometimes you should do it with some marginal hands, too. Going all-in with 76s is not something you want to do very often, but you have to send a message that you're not to be F-ed with. If you do make a "backoff" stand with a moderate hand like this, try to do it with a hand where if you're called, at least your hand is live. So I'd probably rather have 76s than K7o. Another blind defense tactic is the stop-n-go. Call the steal raisers bet and fire out a good sized bet on any flop. Again, doesn't matter what your cards are, you're just hoping the stealer missed and put him on the defensive. Representing hands - Every once in awhile you want to represent a hand you don't have and play it like you would if you had that hand. So a club draw on the board and you aint got no clubs. Play it like you made a flush when a third club hits. Again, this is a HU only type play, not for multiway pots and is to be used sparingly. But it's another way to pick up chips when you don't have the cards to back them up.

hey :!: I dont want to play against guys like this :wink:

[gregory 0]

awesome post, helped me alotI guess another question *because i need to improve pre-flop play* is, what size should be my raises? and should it depend on a steal or a legit isolation raise?2.5, 3, or 4x the BB?

[DCWildcat 0]

I think you have to make raises relative to how much you're normally raising with. Say you haven't moved tables at any point and you've opened with 4x BB with AA or KK and you think the blinds are smart enough to remember that. Open with 4x a few times. Maybe open with a weaker 2.5 x or 3 x later so they don't catch on. While everyone knows the importance of changing gears in poker, some people seem oblivious to it in a stealing position; they fire the same bet from the same position with rags, then suddenly change up when they raise with a legit hand. They're easy to spot. Don't be that guy.

[UNCpoker 0]

One thing I would like to add, as the poster did say not do this all the time, pick your battles. One way to do this imo is only do it with marginal hands, 9-6o or 10-7o(Daniels fav), not too crazy about have do this with 2-7o, 3-9o or just any card. This way if you are called you have a better chance if you do have to play post flop.Just my 2 cents! But I guess it's also where your comfort zone may be.

[hexag1 0]

you should also remember to adjust the size of your raise relative to the stack sizes of the players in the blinds. early on 3xBB is just not enough to knock people out. later when the blinds get 50-100 sometimes just a double raise will be enough, but before that you must raise more. i like 5xBB

[Deepkoncntrtion 0]

what size should be my raises? and should it depend on a steal or a legit isolation raise? ?

It depends on the size of the person's stack....usually 3x to 4x is sufficient, as the other posters have suggested. However, there are situtions where u want to overbet in order to scare evry1 out. You need to be careful when u do this tho, b/c a shortstack may decide to kamikaze in after ur raise. If u are using the 3x,4x, or even 5x blind raises, if someone decides to go all in or re-raise u it is an easy fold. Just remember that after 2 or 3 more hands of raising like this u will have earned all of your money back. Hopefully in a couple of orbits...A steal raise should be similar to an isolation raise...as the other posted stated...ppl will pick up on ur betting patterns so keep it consistent.Just remember not to get caught up in the hand, fold if u get substantially re-raised...and don't repeatedly steal from shortstacks.Another tip that may help u out (this is especially true for turbo tourny's), is when ur down to 3 or 4 tables...try not 2 bust the shortstacks at ur table unless u absolutely have to....this reasoning may seem flawed, but if ur aiming for the final 9, it is better to have some shortstacks at ur table, rather than busting them and having some monster chipstacks sit down.