2 Rulings On One Hand

[DCJ001 0]

Home game rule prevails.In a casino an exposed card is dead.

In a casino an exposed card is not dead, unless it's flipped over by the dealer. If the player were to flash it, it's still in play. "I put you all in" is a bad way to phrase the bet. He should have asked for a count. The player owes what the calling player with the set of kings has in chips and cash, if cash plays in your game.The player with the set of deuces doesn't want to pay the whole amount because he lost the hand.

[Dogpatch 2]

His hand is dead. He's holding the burn card since it was exposed. I don't know about the rest of the group, but I'd never play poker with that guy again.As far as the other $70... if he did have a legit hand... I guess it would be owed to him. But I hate it when people don't put the chips into the pot. I understand if the big stack says all-in (note: the big stack says all-in, not "I put you all-in"). The big stack can say all-in and wait to see if he's called. But the short stack needs to put his chips in the pot if he calls. Then the big stack can put his in. Call it "perks" of having the big stack.I'll admit, when I first started playing... I would say "I put you all-in." But I realized it's BS. The only person putting chips in the pot is the guy that they are in front of. It's like some macho ego bullshit."I put you all-in." No, ya don't. I'll decide if these chips are going in, thank you.

[DCJ001 0]

To everyone who said, "His hand is dead." Do you play poker for cash against people in casinos? If you're guessing about the ruling, you're wrong. Anyone who has experienced this happening in a cash game in a casino knows that the hand is live.

12. Procedure for an exposed card varies with the poker form, and is given in the section for each game. A card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card.

A card that is flashed by a player plays.

To obtain a ruling on whether a card was exposed and should be replaced, a player should announce that the card was flashed or exposed before looking at it. A downcard dealt off th e table is considered an exposed card.

http://cardplayer.com/rules_of_poker/general_rules

[LincolnK 1]

... as we're getting our second card the two guys sitting across of me start telling the guy sitting in the small blind that his card flashed and they saw the K of spades...

i don't see anything there indicating the player flash his hand on his own, which would imply dealer error and therefore the rule

12. Procedure for an exposed card varies with the poker form, and is given in the section for each game.

A card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card.

A card that is flashed by a player plays. To obtain a ruling on whether a card was exposed and should be replaced, a player should announce that the card was flashed or exposed before looking at it. A downcard dealt off th e table is considered an exposed card.

rather than

12. Procedure for an exposed card varies with the poker form, and is given in the section for each game. A card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card.

A card that is flashed by a player plays.

To obtain a ruling on whether a card was exposed and should be replaced, a player should announce that the card was flashed or exposed before looking at it. A downcard dealt off th e table is considered an exposed card.

clarification from op?

[doudave 0]

i don't see anything there indicating the player flash his hand on his own, which would imply dealer error and therefore the rulerather thanclarification from op?

the dealer flashed the card while dealing

[DCJ001 0]

the dealer flashed the card while dealing

It would have been important to say that in the original post. Either way, the player's hand would not be "dead."

[mtdesmoines 3]

you better know exactly how much is in front of a player if you're going to put him all in. get a count.

Ticky tacky, but it's either "I bet 100" or "I go all in."You can't put someone else all in.

[David_Nicoson 1]

In a casino an exposed card is dead. I've never actually seen somebody flat out lie about it but I would think the hand doesn't count. Tough to say what would happen as a dead hand that's played to the end is worth money to the casino (rake vs. session fee may play a role in floor decision)

There was a guy I played against at Binion's that flashed his cards every time he mucked. He had an air of self confidence about him, as if he played a lot. I told him a couple of times that he was flashing his cards. He made a dismissive gesture.He did it again, and I just stated, "Jack of clubs exposed." He said, "I didn't have the jack of clubs," despite it having been plain as day. I shrugged and gave it up, as no one else seemed to give a crap.

[David_Nicoson 1]

The card should be replaced. Having failed to replace it, the action should stand, imho. It's not like a penalty in football that you can decline later.I am not a fan of "I put you all-in". I think the amount of the bet should be clarified in that case and the chips put in the middle. Having not done that, I would rule that the entire stack goes to the SB. It's too late at this point to correct the problem of the king replacement.

[13CARDS 0]

#1. From now on, during the deal of every hand, I will announce that I saw the Button receive the Ace of Sapdes. If he has it, he will need to relinquish it. If I am wrong, oh well, no harm.#2. From now on, regardless of what other players may choose to do, I will personally reach out and push others' stacks into the middle to bet when I have the nuts. Saying "I put you all in" is just too sissy.... reach out and grab those cheques yourself!!#3. Um.... I got nothing!

[LincolnK 1]

Either way, the player's hand would not be "dead."

why not? if you're going to argue, you need to refute the points made.

#1. From now on, during the deal of every hand, I will announce that I saw the Button receive the Ace of Sapdes. If he has it, he will need to relinquish it. If I am wrong, oh well, no harm.

i'm sure everyone else isn't going to get tired of that after 3 hands. good luck finding a game.

[DCJ001 0]

why not? if you're going to argue, you need to refute the points made.

I don't recall a hand being declared "dead" in a cash game. If you disagree, please give examples of when a hand may be declared "dead" in a cash game, based on your knowledge or your experience in a casino.

if you have a hard rule that an exposed card is dead, without the choice to keep it, i call the guy's hand dead at showdown. i don't know what the repercussions would be, but that's how i read the situation.

You don't get to call a hand dead at showdown and if you don't know what the repercussions would be, and you're guessing, you should stop and listen to those who are more knowledgeable.

[13CARDS 0]

If you rule his hand "dead" at showdown because of what happened pre-flop, then fine....BUT all of his wagers are null and void so give all of his money back to him.

[DCJ001 0]

If you rule his hand "dead" at showdown because of what happened pre-flop, then fine....BUT all of his wagers are null and void so give all of his money back to him.

A player cannot rule a hand dead at showdown. 13: please explain any occurrence in which you've ruled a hand dead in a cash game.

[XXEddie 0]

This is easy....whats all the talk aboutonce a card is exposed it is DEAD. He should have never continued like that.However. the dude with a set of 2s said "I put you allin" the SB then called. So basically there is an allin and a call. 2s guy owes the full amount. If this was a casino SB would definately be disiplined but in ahome game i dont know. A 'redo' would be ok....and to whoever said you cant do a 'redo' in poker.....its a home game.

[XXEddie 0]

A player cannot rule a hand dead at showdown. 13: please explain any occurrence in which you've ruled a hand dead in a cash game.

cause its a ****in home game

[LincolnK 1]

I don't recall a hand being declared "dead" in a cash game. If you disagree, please give examples of when a hand may be declared "dead" in a cash game, based on your knowledge or your experience in a casino.You don't get to call a hand dead at showdown and if you don't know what the repercussions would be, and you're guessing, you should stop and listen to those who are more knowledgeable.

it seems like you're having trouble with reading comprehension. i made my argument based on what rules i could find and apply to the situation. not witnessing an event yourself is not grounds to make an argument. if you're going to disagree, you have to come up with some sound reasoning for a specific action being valid or not.robert's rules of pokerhttp://www.lasvegasvegas.com/poker/chapter3.phpsee dead hands, paragraph 1, part d.

1. Your hand is declared dead if:...(d) The hand does not contain the proper number of cards for that particular game (except at stud a hand missing the final card may be ruled live, and at lowball and draw high a hand with too few cards before the draw is live). [see Section 16 - “Explanations,” discussion #4, for more information on the stud portion of this rule.]

i've never seen this happen in person, casino or home game. i can't imagine there are many situations where a hand would be declared dead at showdown. because i have no personal reference for this, i refer to a generally accepted ruleset to determine what should be done. i do remember reading a story about a guy playing a game of draw in a new place. he opens the pot with a pair of aces, but ends up discarding one of them drawing a royal flush. he threw the ace in the muck, and couldn't prove he had a valid hand to open the pot. his hand was declared dead. i think it was from a cardplayer article. also, i said i didn't know what the repercussions would be for someone caught cheating. again, the comprehension thing. they could kick him out, beat the hell out of him, etc; whatever system they use to deal with a cheat.

[13CARDS 0]

A player cannot rule a hand dead at showdown. 13: please explain any occurrence in which you've ruled a hand dead in a cash game.

5-5 NL... Player A mucks his cards on the flop while sitting in the 10 seat. Action continued between Player B and Player C. Seeing the pot build, Player A removed his own cards from the muck and then proceeded to call the flop wager. On the Turn, Player A moved all in and was called by Player B. Player A got beat when the river card came out. He then complained that he had mucked on the flop and wanted his money back. I obliged (partly!). His hand was ruled mucked (dead), the pot was shipped to Player B and Player A was told to find a new place to play for the next 6 months.

[Mockerman1 0]

O.k. Playing in a home game with these guys for the second time and I'm not involved in this hand. We are sitting on a round table playing 1-2 no limit. I'm in the big blind, as we're getting our second card the two guys sitting across of me start telling the guy sitting in the small blind that his card flashed and they saw the K of spades, they repeat this a couple of times at which point the guy says you are wrong, so we drop it. The pot gets raised to 10 dollars and the small blind calls. The flop comes K27 at which point the small blind bets out 15, the only other guy in the hand is one of the guys that called out the card before the flop. Anyway, the guy thinks for a few seconds and says I put you allin. He puts out 31 dollars thinking the SB had only 16 dollars left. Here is the problem, the small blind had like 70 more dollars in cash sitting right next to him (between me and him). Anyway they turn over their cards and the small blind shows KK for a set and the other dude shows 22 for a smaller set. The Kings hold up and the SB is like you owe me like 70 more. The other dude says he paid him and he didn't see the cash in front of him. A couple of seconds go by before I say this hand should not even count since his cards were exposed before the hand and he lied about having the K. He says no and I realize that I made my point and I'm going to keep my mouth shut since its not my money. They decide that the SB should get the pot without the extra 70. I know if it was me I would take half that pot back and in noway let that hand stand. What should have been the rulings here, If you dont have your cash directly in front of you and people don't see it what should be the ruling and also what's the ruling when a card is exposed and the guy lies about it?

I don't know if this has been addressed prior to this in the thread, but my understanding is it all depends on how the cards was exposed. If the dealer flips it over and it's an obvious dealer mistake, then the card must be replaced or the hand redealt, if it's a situation where the guy flashes it, I don't see how what the player says to someone else seeing it matters. If the card was dealt to him in a proper manner, a flashed card is just that, a card that is accidently noted by another player. Hand plays from there. So, this in turn should have no effect on a future ruling as to what happens when the player with the dueces states "I put you all it". The determination on this, in my mind, is that that player must indeed then be forced to cover the bet as stated (verbal actions binding and all) or, if he can't cover, must pass all of his money to the other player.(Although as other posts have noted, this is a home game - it all depends on the level of person/proffesionalism of the game. I once was playing in a home tourney for $20 bucks a head between a couple of people and one guy said "If we were playing for money, I wouldn't have been playing this way" - the guy was our friend so we just started over.)