Making Money Playing Pool

[gmanshade 0]

I have a question that I bet someone has an answer for: Daniel N, John Hennigan, Nick Shulman, and others were all very accomplished pool players who could not make a living playing pool. The reason that they couldn't make consistent money in the long term in cash games is obvious: in pool, unlike in poker, it is immediately obvious if you up against someone better than you. So the games dry up: luck is not there to prop up delusions of grandeur. But it is also the case that almost no one in the U.S. can make a living playing tournament pool. One of the only people able to do so is Efren Reyes, who is essentially the Tiger Woods of pool.my question is why is it is possible for pro snooker and billiard players in the UK and the continent to make a living but not players in the U.S.? For instance, wikipedia lists snooker player Jimmy White as having more than 4 million pounds in lifetime winnings (he is not even in the top ten strongest players in Europe)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_WhiteBut there is almost no one in the U.S. able to play pool for a living without having a second job (with a stable income). For instance, even prodigies at the game like Masconi and Irving Crane http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Cranecould not make a living off of it. Who has a serious answer for this? Why is tournament pool a viable career in Europe but not in the U.S.?btw, who here plays APA pool? I fluctuate between an SL 5 and SL 6 and consider myself a good player.

[NicksDad1970 0]

For starters look at the prize pools in pro pool tourneys.There isn't near the action for the "road players" anymore. I can only speak for the mid south when I say it was the casinos coming in that ruined it. A decent money game was something like 10 ahead for 1k. These poker players just flip coins for that kind of money.It's weird in places like Detroit in the 1970's they'd have 50k - 100k cash games. Seems like as time has gone by the games have been smaller and smaller.

[chrozzo 19]

because lincoln was the 16th president

[rogerwilco 0]

Two answers:- There is a lot of money in professional snooker in the UK, there are big prize pools, big audiences and lots of lucrative sponsorship deals for the best players. Snooker players are not hustlers, they play a respected sport (whatever someone who doesn't care about snooker may think about it)- For a pool hustler to make money other than playing tournaments, I guess it is essential to make the opponent believe you are not that good - until the stakes get higher...

[zedd2005 0]

people here in uk (like me) enjoy watching snooker, a game of skill. people hate watching pool, a donkeys game, compared to snooker, which needs much much less skill to wintherefore, less money to be made

[NicksDad1970 0]

people here in uk (like me) enjoy watching snooker, a game of skill. people hate watching pool, a donkeys game, compared to snooker, which needs much much less skill to wintherefore, less money to be made

at least you aren't biased.......way to go

[gmanshade 0]

For starters look at the prize pools in pro pool tourneys.There isn't near the action for the "road players" anymore. I can only speak for the mid south when I say it was the casinos coming in that ruined it. A decent money game was something like 10 ahead for 1k. These poker players just flip coins for that kind of money.It's weird in places like Detroit in the 1970's they'd have 50k - 100k cash games. Seems like as time has gone by the games have been smaller and smaller.

thanks for this response. the question I have is this: why can't there be big prize pools in the U.S. as well? We are wealthier than every country in Europe, poker has demonstrated there is a television fan base for bar game tournaments, and I'm sure there are many high level pool players that are engaging characters like gus hansen, scotty nguyen, matusow, etc. One of the reasons I was thinking of this is that the APA is the largest pool league in the world--meaning that there is definitely a fan base for the game. There is also no reason why bars in the U.S. couldn't run small buy-in pool tournaments the same way many now run holdem tourneys.

[rogerwilco 0]

at least you aren't biased.......way to go

He's right though. Pool is fun to play when getting drunk with friends, snooker is a challenging game, where you have to think and concentrate if you don't want to look like an idiot.

[gmanshade 0]

I mean, if Bowling can be a viable televised sport (it has HUGE viewership) with decent prize pools, how can it be that Pool is not?To the poster above: I don't follow your point about snooker versus pool-what difference does it make whether the players are respected or looked at as thieves? many pro poker players have a shady past (dutch boyd, pokerspot thing; zeejustin, cheating; men the master, cheating; david williams, porn film cheating at magic; etc).

[gmanshade 0]

it may be the case that snooker is more of a game of skill than pool, I'm not sure. but anyone that doubts that pool is more skill than poker is crazy. if you play a pro in any pool variant (8 ball, 9 ball, straight, etc) you will be destroyed. by contrast anyone here could win a heads up game against any pro poker player if they got a little lucky.

[rogerwilco 0]

thanks for this response. the question I have is this: why can't there be big prize pools in the U.S. as well?

I'm guessing it's mostly because pool just doesn't make for such good television as snooker. When I watched pool, 9 out of 10 times the guy who shot the opening won the game - especially 9-ball is incredibly boring. Snooker on the other hand is a strategic game, where the players have to think in many shots in advance, play extremely precise and really play against each other, it's not just about potting difficult balls. It's much more interesting to watch.

[NicksDad1970 0]

He's right though. Pool is fun to play when getting drunk with friends, snooker is a challenging game, where you have to think and concentrate if you don't want to look like an idiot.

I've played snooker. I don't doubt for a minute that snooker is much harder than 9 ball for example.The fast action of 9 ball does attract an audience. For me banks or one pocket is fun to watch but I doubt it would get good TV ratings.I can't explain why snooker is so popular in the UK. I think that's great but it doesn't mean it would work in the US. Soccer is just a lil more popular outside the states as well. I can't explain that one either.

[zedd2005 0]

seriously, pool is entertaining to play, but boring as a dogs *** to watch. even if the person plays real good, the pockets are so big that if you hit the ball hard enough, itll go in.in snooker, the pockets are precise to the balls measurements, the players are always aiming for position and outplaying the other player psychologically. the fact you have to hit a red ball, then a colour ball rather than just "your" colour or solid/stripe makes it a lot harder to play. the tables are also bigger.the players are also celebrities of a type here in the uk, so it makes it more easier to watch.

[gmanshade 0]

I'm guessing it's mostly because pool just doesn't make for such good television as snooker. When I watched pool, 9 out of 10 times the guy who shot the opening won the game - especially 9-ball is incredibly boring. Snooker on the other hand is a strategic game, where the players have to think in many shots in advance, play extremely precise and really play against each other, it's not just about potting difficult balls. It's much more interesting to watch.

okay, this is a really good answer. this is definitely part of the explanation. most everyone in the U.S. plays 8 ball and most of the tournaments are 9 ball. I agree with you it is less interesting to watch b/c unless you are really good 9 ball ends up being a significant amount of luck. so televising 8 ball tournaments would be more viable.

[zedd2005 0]

I've played snooker. I don't doubt for a minute that snooker is much harder than 9 ball for example.The fast action of 9 ball does attract an audience. For me banks or one pocket is fun to watch but I doubt it would get good TV ratings.I can't explain why snooker is so popular in the UK. I think that's great but it doesn't mean it would work in the US. Soccer is just a lil more popular outside the states as well. I can't explain that one either.

lol. bit more than just a lil me thinks.

[gmanshade 0]

seriously, pool is entertaining to play, but boring as a dogs *** to watch. even if the person plays real good, the pockets are so big that if you hit the ball hard enough, itll go in.in snooker, the pockets are precise to the balls measurements, the players are always aiming for position and outplaying the other player psychologically. the fact you have to hit a red ball, then a colour ball rather than just "your" colour or solid/stripe makes it a lot harder to play. the tables are also bigger.the players are also celebrities of a type here in the uk, so it makes it more easier to watch.

the reason it took so long for poker to be a viable televised sport is the same reason. the technology of hole cameras existed almost two decades ago, but no one wanted to invest the money to have hole cams, ten-twenty cameras, to build a set, pay commentators, pay hot girls to be in the background, pay to edit the footage because the mindset was "this is boring." the reason a lot of pro poker players missed the boat investing in early poker ventures is because as people that spent 50+ hrs a week playing poker they thought "this is boring enough to do, who in the world would want to watch it?" I think everyone that likes playing pool in the U.S. would be willing to watch it on tv if it was marketed correctly, with interesting players, accesible commentary, and large prize pools. basically, americans will tune in to watch any sport that they play themselves (or have played) because a large part of the fun of viewing is vicarious. as i said in the above post, i can't imagine how bowling--or, to offer another example, golf--is a more compelling game to watch, but each have significant prize pools and get good ratings. hell, ESPN is even trying to make pro fishing a viable sport. (they also tried this with darts, and it went busto. a main reason for this is that European players absolutely crush american players in this game. there is no hometown favorite to root for because they all get blown out of the water).

[kkcountry 0]

what do you call a professional pool player without a girlfriend?homeless.

[rogerwilco 0]

To the poster above: I don't follow your point about snooker versus pool-what difference does it make whether the players are respected or looked at as thieves? many pro poker players have a shady past (dutch boyd, pokerspot thing; zeejustin, cheating; men the master, cheating; david williams, porn film cheating at magic; etc).

That wasn't my point, I meant, the game itself is respected and very popular on TV, which brings lots of money into snooker. That doesn't mean, that there are no "shady" players in snooker as well (although sportsmanship is extremely important), for example, the - maybe - best living player at the moment, Ronny O'Sullivan is quite a character...

I can't explain why snooker is so popular in the UK. I think that's great but it doesn't mean it would work in the US. Soccer is just a lil more popular outside the states as well. I can't explain that one either.

Absolutely. I don't believe, snooker on TV will ever generate any meaningful amounts of money in the US. (in fact I think it doesn't anywhere outside the UK + Commonwealth)

[bdc30 0]

Seems to me you're all missing the key element in which poker is different than pool.Pool is 95% skill and maybe 5% luck (snooker, specifically - but all pool is skill based)Poker IS also skill based, but much less so. I'd call is a 60/40 split maybe, but still, the WORST player in the world can still pay his $10K, go to the world series, get smackedin the face by the deck and take out the best in the world. (Hell, if Moneymaker can do it....)In pool, sure I could pay and enter a snooker tournament against the world's best, but barring some type of natural disaster in which I was the ONLY player left standing in the pool hall, I would have precisely NO chance of beating those players.Why do you think poker got SO huge after Moneymaker's wsop win? The "common man" looked at a guy who turned $40 in to $2.5M and said, hey, that looks easy...

[SuperJon 175]

internationalpooltour or IPT is the best thing to come along for professional pool players in America. It's been around for awhile, and anyone can play in it. It's 8 ball (not 9 ball), played on much more difficult conditions than what most players are used to. The prize pools are huge, almost $300,000 for 1st place. I say give it another year or so, and this is what you'll be seeing on ESPN.

[rogerwilco 0]

internationalpooltour or IPT is the best thing to come along for professional pool players in America. It's been around for awhile, and anyone can play in it. It's 8 ball (not 9 ball), played on much more difficult conditions than what most players are used to. The prize pools are huge, almost $300,000 for 1st place. I say give it another year or so, and this is what you'll be seeing on ESPN.

8-ball has a much better chance to become a tv-sport than 9-ball in my opinion, at least I would much rather watch that. (I'm not american though, so what do I know, I wouldn't watch a bowling, golf or fishing tournament if you paid me for doing that)

[Brisco 0]

I played pool for a living for a couple of years. I played tournaments here and there but mostly I played cash games in bars and pool rooms. The problem in this scenario becomes that once people know your speed you end up having to handicap the games to get a game. It was a lot of fun though.As far as the tournament pool vs snooker thing I dont know that much about it. Those snooker players really do look down on the pool thing though. I was at a christmas party at my business partners house and this one british guy who attended was a snooker player, and was used to crushing any room of average players. He chuckled when my buddy suggested we play. I did not let on that I had ever played more that recreationally. Man I tore him up. He was stunned. BTW if you are looking for a cue that will stand out the next time you go play I may have something for you.

[gmanshade 0]

I played pool for a living for a couple of years. I played tournaments here and there but mostly I played cash games in bars and pool rooms. The problem in this scenario becomes that once people know your speed you end up having to handicap the games to get a game. It was a lot of fun though.As far as the tournament pool vs snooker thing I dont know that much about it. Those snooker players really do look down on the pool thing though. I was at a christmas party at my business partners house and this one british guy who attended was a snooker player, and was used to crushing any room of average players. He chuckled when my buddy suggested we play. I did not let on that I had ever played more that recreationally. Man I tore him up. He was stunned. BTW if you are looking for a cue that will stand out the next time you go play I may have something for you.

thanks for this post. very interesting. 1) do you play APA? if so, are you a SL 7? I'm curious what it takes to be ranked that; no one in my area is. I was curious also because in an interview Nick Shulman says that when he was playing a lot he was one of the 10 best players in NYC. I wonder how good people are in this group.2) for cash games, it seems the problem is the same as it is for people very skilled at chess, bridge, backgammon, etc. the best you can do is play with a handicap that is in your favor, but the more you win doing this the greater an edge you have to give your opponents3) the international poker league mentioned on the previous page is exactly what I was talking about. from the website it seems that they only had one big tourney (efren reyes won 500k) and nothing else besides that. it may just be that the site is not updated or that i'm incompetent at navigating it.4) what is this cue that you speak of?

[kkcountry 0]

4) what is this cue that you speak of?

sneaky pete's FTW

[Footballguru 0]

WTF IS SNOOKER?sounds like a fish i would keep in an aquarium