Calling, Mucking, Dead Hand Rules

[pokerglory 0]

Few general questions:1) I play primarily on Stars but recently joined FT. On Stars, let's say a hand played is HU. Flop is checked. On the turn player A checks, player B (in late position) bets and is called. On the river, both players check.

-> On Stars, player A's cards are shown first because he/she is first to act. If Player B's hand is better, his/her cards are is shown (otherwise player B has the option to muck or show).-> On FT, players B's cards will be shown first (because he/she was the last person to bet). Then if player A's hand is better, it will be shown.

Why the discrepancy? Is there a proper procedure? In a B&M, it's hard to tell because players who think they have the winning hand are usually quick to expose their cards first, so there's no clear order. I do tend to think the Stars method is the preferred way.2) In a B&M Hold'em game, let's say a hand goes to showdown. Player A shows one card (for example, an Ace to make the nut straight with no flush draw or pair on board). Before player B acts, can he/she ask to see player A's other card (even though it is irrelevant to the board)? Player A adamantly says "it doesn't matter, this is good enough" (i.e. not wanting to show what A-rag he/she was playing).Note - this happened in a private tournament. Most of the players knew each other, but player A was an outsider and player B wanted to pick up information on him.3) Same situation as #2, only thing is instead of player B asking to see the other card, player B says "that's good". Player A then proceeds to throw us unseen card into the muck pile, yet leaving the Ace exposed.Player B angle shoots and says: "Hold on - I just said that's good. I have an Ace too." Player B proceeds to show his AK hand.In a B&M room, what would the ruling be? Does player A's lone card stand and the two split the pot? Or would player A's hand be declared dead since one card had reached the muck pile?(Note - I have seen this in a home game where all the players decided it would keep things friendly if the plot were split).4) "Show one, show all". In tournament play, player A bets, player B to his/her left folds. Player A shows his/her cards to player B then throws the cards towards the muck pile. The dealer pulls the cards out of the muck, turns them over and shows the cards to all the players. This (I believe) is standard.In a cash game, this isn't done. Yet if a player not involved in the hand wants to see the cards that Player A showed, can he/she legitimately make this request without rabbit hunting?5) What is the rule on making a hand dead at a B&M room? I always hear the dealer tell their players to protect their cards, because if one or both cards are exposed, that player's hand is ruled dead. Fair enough, but I have also heard that if player A's cards are not protected (simply by using a chip or something) and another card (be it from the dealer dealing or another player throwing cards into the muck), player A's hand is ruled dead.Thanks!

[Dogpatch 2]

Ok, let's see. From Robert's Rules1: If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. If there is a side pot , players involved in the side pot should show their hands before anyone who is all-in for only the main pot.2: A player must show all cards in the hand face-up on the table to win any part of the pot.3: A tricky one. I would apply this rule maybe. "Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot."4. After a deal, if cards are shown to another player, every player at the table has a right to see those cards.5. Section on exposed cards. 12. Procedure for an exposed card varies with the poker form, and is given in the section for each game. A card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card. A card that is flashed by a player will play. To obtain a ruling on whether a card was exposed and should be replaced, a player should announce that the card was flashed or exposed before looking at it. A downcard dealt off the table is an exposed card.13. If a card is exposed due to dealer error, a player does not have an option to take or reject the card. The situation will be governed by the rules for the particular game being played.14. If you drop a card on the floor out of your hand, you must still play that card.Hope that answers your questions. It's well known that there are no "Official Rules", but Robert's Rules are the ones most often applied.Edit: At the end I think you were saying if a player's hand is discarded into another players hand. Cards thrown into another player’s hand are dead, whether they are faceup or facedown.I don't believe this makes Player A's hand dead, just the cards that were accidentally thrown into it.

[Naps_555 0]

3: A tricky one. I would apply this rule maybe. "Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot."

Number 3 is not that tricky: If player A mucks his cards without showing BOTH of them face up he forfiets the pot. Unless player B has already acted by saying fold.Saying "thats good" is not a clear action. In a casino, player B winsAlso my understanding of question 1, is that the last player who bet/raised during the hand shows their cards first.

[Dogpatch 2]

Number 3 is not that tricky: If player A mucks his cards without showing BOTH of them face up he forfiets the pot. Unless player B has already acted by saying fold.Saying "thats good" is not a clear action. In a casino, player B winsAlso my understanding of question 1, is that the last player who bet/raised during the hand shows their cards first.

You're right. I forgot about the player only showing one card. That's why you don't get cute and show one card. Go ahead and show that you played A3o and lucked into the straight. Table your hand properly and protect it until the dealer kills all the losing hands and awards the pot.In regards to question 1. The only round of betting that determines who shows first is the river. If it's check/check, the player closest to the button shows. Other than that it's whoever takes action.

[Socrates 0]

A player whose bet is called must show their hand first or just concede the pot by mucking with no cards needing to be shown. The caller may opt to muck their hand if they choose after seeing the bettors hand or if the bettor mucks and concedes. You also have to show both cards to claim the hand. The one card play is an attempt to get over on not exposing all of your play.

[rgold79 0]

Few general questions:1) I play primarily on Stars but recently joined FT. On Stars, let's say a hand played is HU. Flop is checked. On the turn player A checks, player B (in late position) bets and is called. On the river, both players check.

-> On Stars, player A's cards are shown first because he/she is first to act. If Player B's hand is better, his/her cards are is shown (otherwise player B has the option to muck or show).-> On FT, players B's cards will be shown first (because he/she was the last person to bet). Then if player A's hand is better, it will be shown.

Why the discrepancy? Is there a proper procedure? In a B&M, it's hard to tell because players who think they have the winning hand are usually quick to expose their cards first, so there's no clear order. I do tend to think the Stars method is the preferred way.

Online, both players' hands will be visible in the hand history, so the order they're exposed doesn't really matter. You can always see what your opponent held, assuming you reach showdown.

[Dogpatch 2]

Online, both players' hands will be visible in the hand history, so the order they're exposed doesn't really matter. You can always see what your opponent held, assuming you reach showdown.

There is that, and oh how I love it.

[hungerfan 0]

Online, both players' hands will be visible in the hand history, so the order they're exposed doesn't really matter. You can always see what your opponent held, assuming you reach showdown.

Not at Doyles Room (unless it has changed since I was there early Summer). A mucked hand is just that...a mucked hand. Makes online play more like B&M play when you don't get to see the crap they were playing to the river.Ed

[No_Neck 0]

mucked hands are mucked on Doyles room. Also that is a lot of reading above so I am going to ignore it