Is Homosexuality Really A Sin?

[jmkiser 0]

Well, then, at least we have identified that you don't care about facts. Take me up on that bet yet? No? Didn't think so.

Facts? What facts?Your religion?What bet?

[BWToth 0]

God says "Thy faith will make you whole." Do you feel whole, Toth? Or do you just have a whole lot of questions that you can never answer? Is your search working out for you? Does it seem like you are getting anywhere, or is it possible that the blind one is actually you, and without faith you will always be so?

First of all,"Faith: belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact."More importantly, I find it much more appealing to not accept any answer rather than accepting beyond a doubt one that MIGHT be wrong.I'm truly, really curious how you and Kwest can believe with out ANY doubt that god exists....I mean even a .0000000000000001% chance that he doesn't. What proof do you have Lois, besides you've 'been in the church for 25 years', or Kwest 'that your life was saved by god in a car crash'. Anything?As far as 'wholeness' I promise you I'm a much more 'whole' individual than you are Lois. So the preacher at the Church of Christ I attend in Charlotte, NC, who has been a minister for 25 years, and studied theology at Pepperdine University and as far as I've witnessed lives as close to on par with the Bilbe's teachings as anyone I know, isn't a 'REAL' christian because he has stated to me firsthand that their is no way to know beyond any shadow of a doubt whether or not god exists?Are you really standing by your statement that any 'christian' who has doubt in their faith isn't really a christian at all and will go to hell?How have you 'observed god up close and from a far'? Give me an example please.

[Loismustdie 0]

First of all,"Faith: belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact."More importantly, I find it much more appealing to not accept any answer rather than accepting beyond a doubt one that MIGHT be wrong.I'm truly, really curious how you and Kwest can believe with out ANY doubt that god exists....I mean even a .0000000000000001% chance that he doesn't. What proof do you have Lois, besides you've 'been in the church for 25 years', or Kwest 'that your life was saved by god in a car crash'. Anything?As far as 'wholeness' I promise you I'm a much more 'whole' individual than you are Lois. So the preacher at the Church of Christ I attend in Charlotte, NC, who has been a minister for 25 years, and studied theology at Pepperdine University and as far as I've witnessed lives as close to on par with the Bilbe's teachings as anyone I know, isn't a 'REAL' christian because he has stated to me firsthand that their is no way to know beyond any shadow of a doubt whether or not god exists?Are you really standing by your statement that any 'christian' who has doubt in their faith isn't really a christian at all and will go to hell?How have you 'observed god up close and from a far'? Give me an example please.

You promise me that you are a much more whole individual. Really? The settle down and no more questions. You don't have any, you are whole. Next. If you entertain doubt, and don't deal with it, how could you possibly be giving all to God? You can't, therefore your sacrifice would be incomplete. Some of the ways I have observed god are both terrible and beautiful, none of which I would ever share on this forum, because they involve others as well, and I don't think they would want to have there personal experiences aired on a Poker Forum. You actually promised me that you are a much more whole individual, yet you spend hours begging for answers, anything to help you understand, anything to help you develop a belief system, which is good- really good, actually, but it makes you far from a complete individual. Of course, you keep that frame of mind and you will never find those answers because you don't really believe you need them, which is very telling as far as what type of individual you are. You have doubts, my friend, which is fine, until you look to cultivate that doubt, to find reason, any reason, for that doubt to exist. Then you are just on a path to spiritual destruction, because really, if Christ appeared in front of you and told you exactly what I tell you you would then try and find a way to prove, or at least cast doubt on, the idea that it was even Christ in the first place. The resolution, the absolute proof you seek cannot be found without faith. It can't be done. I am sorry totell you that but that is the truth.

[BWToth 0]

faith is believing without proof, of course it can't be done, the definition of faith implies believing without proof.The only sense at which I'm claiming to be more 'whole' than you is the fact that you can only see one side of any issue, the side you believe. You don't have the ablility to look at a situation from someone else's perspective and you certainly dont' have the ability to critique your OWN perspective on a subject.

[Kwest4chipz 0]

My "sweeping" generalization of you, kiser, is not a sweeping generalization on the scale of lumping all religion in the same category. I'm merely stating an opinion/observation of one individual. You are right, I don't know you, nor would I ever care to know you. Answer me this one question, which has been posted elsewhere but was never answered. If you don't believe in God, the bible, Satan, or any of those, you would not be on the defensive, cuz they don't exist to you. Why would you defend a position that has no strategical value? The fact that you are so hell bent on discrediting people of faith, tells me, you probably aren't 100 percent atheist. If I didn't believe in any of what I believe in I can honestly say that I really wouldn't care that 3/4 of the population on earth has some sort of religious convictions. The only reason I would care, is if after hearing why people believed what they did and how they are touched by faith, I felt as though I missed out. Like a kid in kindergarten, showed up to school late and everyone else got candy. Since he was late, the candy was gone and he was out of luck. Instead of making it a point not to be late again, he throws a tantrum and continues to be late to school regularly. He never figures out that if he alters one behavior, he might get the same benefits the others are. I'm not saying that you need to believe what i believe, but the more you talk the more you sound like an angry child that feels they missed out on something. Thats the only basis I can think of for yer anti-religion banter. As far as being able to have faith in God 100% Yes it is possible to have that. Is it possible to be 100% that my religion is the correct religion? no. Is it possible to be 100% that any religion is right? No. What kiser is suggesting however is a lil more outta wack from reality, he in effect is claiming that 3/4 of the world are a bunch of raving lunatics that believe in religious hocus pocus. I, however, can't accept that so many people are that out of touch with reality. Its physically impoosible. To have that many perfectly normal, sane, intelligent people lose their minds to one similiar idea. Whoever propogated such a widespread conspiracy was an absolute genius, or maybe just maybe it was a higher being????

[Kwest4chipz 0]

Ok toth, i missed that but ya, i can't even claim 100% faith, as that would make me perfect, and no living soul can claim that. I believe what I believe, however, and my faith is strong that God exists. No matter what my religious beliefs are there is absolutely no harm in me living my life in a way that doesn't hurt others, doesn't hurt myself, and gives me a sense of well being. Some people don't draw a parallel between that sense of well being and the existence of God and explain it in other ways. I explain it as God, why people who don't believe have a constant battery of questions for why we believe, is mystifying. I don't have the same curiousity about people that don't believe, nor do i feel that I have to belittle them for believing in nothing. Not believing to me is not silly, stupid or ignorant. You are what you are, your path took you a different way, I don't need to question that. My path took me on a spiritual journey, what is so wrong with that?

[DCJ001 0]

[myenemy 0]

I dont mean to get in the way of this wonderful discussion, and fyi Im not a particularly religious person, though I do respect religion, but for those who are "looking for proof", some sort of guarantee that Christ exists, isn't no absolute proof kind of the point? If God appeared on a talkshow everyday and told people what was what, it really wouldn't be religion anymore. Im not sure Im framing my point correctly here, but I think "the leap of faith" is what makes religion meaningful to people. I hope Ive contributed. Thanks.

[jmkiser 0]

I understand where my serious and raving undertones might come across as making the sweeping generalization that everyone who believes in something spiritual is a lunatic.I don't believe that in the least bit. I do believe that there are a million psychological reasons why people believe in the possibilities of the supernatural.over 2,000 years ago, you would be a lunatic to believe there was no God. They also believed the earth was flat (don't know if 2,000 is the right number, but you understand what I'm saying).The more people grow... the more that humans learn... year by year, it has become more and more acceptable to not believe in God. It even comes to the point nowadays where we have so much knowledge and information as humans, that we can point out how we don't need a God in the least bit for everything to have come about the way it has. We've even come so far philosophically to be able to point out the fallacies of an Abrahamic (sp? right word?) God.I am asked"Why would I defend a position that has no strategical value?"And I will answer it this way. I am not 100% certain that there is no outside force involved in life only because it is impossible to disprove it. Why do I get so antsy then if I should be comfortable in my way of thinking?Ah, but here is my actual way of thinking.Humanity is being slowed down by these religions. Scientifically and EVEN spiritually, we could advance if we didn't have to fight the claims of religion half the time. I keep saying over and over again that I am MORE then open to the possibility of an outside force being a factor in our existence today, but we will NEVER get to scientifically discover such a force when we have to fight Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc. ideology every single day.Being born a child and never influenced by the hand of religion, the idea of an Abrahamic (again, check what I'm saying) God is ridiculous. We're all born atheists to everything. Hopefully, when we do learn as we grow... we are learning what we can prove as fact and utilizing our knowledge in a practical manner in society. And then, as adults, we can have open-intellectual discussion about real theories.Instead, we bicker about religion. The most intelligent people of religion attempt to find every piece of information they can to fit into their story. The most idiotic people of religion .. well... really don't say anything important other then they're right because God says so. All of which means nothing in the end. Nothing is accomplished, nothing is discovered, nothing is reality, God isn't proven, God isn't disproven, and the bickering continues. Churches continue to be made, religions continue to attack the most wishy-washy of people, and human progress continues to slow.I don't get emotional and upset because I have worries that my stance might be wrong. If you notice, most of the time, I'm not really taking my own stance. I'm just attacking those stances which have no real basis. Every time (well, maybe not EVERY time but you know what I mean) someone who is religious tries to bend the truth or present evidence that fits into their story, I come at them with logical opposition. The last thing I would want to happen, is for someone to read propaganda-ist nonsense and start to get sucked in to believing religion with any sincerity. To me, those who are wishy-washy can remain that way because they are probably more prone to believing facts when they see it then stories based on faith that conflict. I would be happy if someone stumbled on this and read it before stumbling on a Christian who is grabbing at pieces of reality and fitting them into their fiction puzzle.So my emotions do not come from personal doubt in my own ideals. My ideals are actually very wishy washy. They are very open. Open to fact, reason, logic, proof, evidence, etc. I am NOT biased in evidence that I get and I am not biased in my position as Lois would like you to think I am. It's just when someone from Lois's point of view can't point out one single shred of anything valid, how can anyone come close to taking what he believes in with the least bit of sincerity? I credit you, Lois, in that you are a staunch follower and strong in your convictions, but your convictions don't make any sense to a worldly point of view. But what's worldly doesn't really matter to you now does it, Lois? And no, I wouldn't "get it" if I was a believer. I was a believer. If you look at my few hundred friends on Facebook, you'll see two atheists (one of them being me ) and maybe 6 or 7 agnostics. They are almost all Christians. They almost all come from AU or my old high school. Many of them (as Lois would agree) aren't actually Christian in the least bit other then the fact that they say they are... mostly because they've been raised to say they are. I'm getting off track, but the point I'm making is that I have a very grounded point of view between Christianity and being a non-believer. I know most of the arguments from both sides and in the end, you will believe in religion due to your faith that is baseless in any sense of reality. And that is what I'm trying to fight.

[Loismustdie 0]

o my emotions do not come from personal doubt in my own ideals. My ideals are actually very wishy washy. They are very open. Open to fact, reason, logic, proof, evidence, etc. I am NOT biased in evidence that I get and I am not biased in my position as Lois would like you to think I am. It's just when someone from Lois's point of view can't point out one single shred of anything valid, how can anyone come close to taking what he believes in with the least bit of sincerity? I credit you, Lois, in that you are a staunch follower and strong in your convictions, but your convictions don't make any sense to a worldly point of view. But what's worldly doesn't really matter to you now does it, Lois? Good stuff, and very true.

[jmkiser 0]

Thanks I was hoping I did us both right (that can be taken very wrongly to those with silly minds)

[Kwest4chipz 0]

So..........we can call this a wrap?Except I want to address, religion slowing down humanity...Now i can't speak for all countries and all religion but I can say that religion isn't slowing down anything in the US, the government and large corporations are. I just present one example such as corporations buying the patents to inventions that would benefit some of the issues going on currently in the world. The government ensures this will happen by making the hoops you have to jump through in order to patent/trademark an idea so cost invasive that the inventors sell their invention/idea for pennies on the dollar and the corporations then sit on the idea. Its like a big stack running over a table. Big stack has 150k in chips, the lil guy has 10k or so....lil guy goes all in, and its more cost effective for the big stack to risk 10k and take a player out than it is to fold and hope the guy doesn't double up. In short corporations slow down progress, and the government facilitates it. Maybe i should make a new thread, cuz this just went way off topic...lol I've only just recently had an experience with the govt and the restrictions it places on new ideas. Although it wasn't a major leap for mankind, it was an idea that I think would be a hit with poker players, and it would ride the increasing popularity of poker. The problem is, I have no knowledge of how to manufacture the idea...and you have to have it in commerce to even apply for a trademark on it. Basically, leaving this idea locked in my mental vault, because if i took the steps to pursue it...it would be open to risk to be hijacked by a large corporation. Thats just a small idea, and its been effectively abandoned. I think of all the people that have contributions to make for a cleaner environment, or just new inventions that might make the world a safer place, and how many of those never make it past the idea stage, because they don't have the resources to develop, or produce them. Yah maybe that should be a new topic. (apologies)

[jmkiser 0]

So..........we can call this a wrap?Except I want to address, religion slowing down humanity...Now i can't speak for all countries and all religion but I can say that religion isn't slowing down anything in the US, the government and large corporations are. I just present one example such as corporations buying the patents to inventions that would benefit some of the issues going on currently in the world. The government ensures this will happen by making the hoops you have to jump through in order to patent/trademark an idea so cost invasive that the inventors sell their invention/idea for pennies on the dollar and the corporations then sit on the idea. Its like a big stack running over a table. Big stack has 150k in chips, the lil guy has 10k or so....lil guy goes all in, and its more cost effective for the big stack to risk 10k and take a player out than it is to fold and hope the guy doesn't double up. In short corporations slow down progress, and the government facilitates it. Maybe i should make a new thread, cuz this just went way off topic...lol I've only just recently had an experience with the govt and the restrictions it places on new ideas. Although it wasn't a major leap for mankind, it was an idea that I think would be a hit with poker players, and it would ride the increasing popularity of poker. The problem is, I have no knowledge of how to manufacture the idea...and you have to have it in commerce to even apply for a trademark on it. Basically, leaving this idea locked in my mental vault, because if i took the steps to pursue it...it would be open to risk to be hijacked by a large corporation. Thats just a small idea, and its been effectively abandoned. I think of all the people that have contributions to make for a cleaner environment, or just new inventions that might make the world a safer place, and how many of those never make it past the idea stage, because they don't have the resources to develop, or produce them. Yah maybe that should be a new topic. (apologies)

I admit that I skimmed over the talk about business (and that would be a new topic I'd get into), but when talking about what slows things down for humanity in this country alone... you can mention tons of things. Religion, business, government, education, media, and the list goes on and on. All of which provide certain good qualities, but also provide many harmful bad qualities. To admit to everyone here, I'm as fiery of a libertarian as I am an atheist (and I mean atheist in the less semantic terms... I mean it loosely), but politics is a different place to talk about. Another interesting thread topic might be our society (local, state-wide, national) and how we can improve it (and I'm not talking about goofy little notions like "Pick up mOaR TrAsh!").Anyway, I'm rambling, but the point was that my mentioning of what you commented on, was based solely on the fact that this is the religion forum :-P

[Kwest4chipz 0]

Yah it just got me thinking about what really slows down progress....snowballed after that. I guess we can call this thread a wrap.

[kylestheman 0]

O.k. first of all I think it is really kewl that my favorite poker player Daniel Negreanu is a Christian. I am a very devout Christian myself, and foud exremely fascinating when I read Daniel's article in relevant magazine. Now I player poker exclusively on FCP. Now that I've gotten that out of the way. I really want to respond to this topic in the most sensative manner possible.We as Christians are called to love one another the way Christ did unconditionally. Jesus the two greatest commandments are Love the Lord your God, and Love your neighbor (which means anyone in humanity). I love Homosexuals I am in no way a Gay Basher, or a homaphobe. However Jesus clearly says in the bible that homosexuality is a sin 1St Corinthians 6:9-10. We need to remember most of all as Chrisitan's we are called to love the sinner hate the sin. Homosexuality is a sin, but I think we as Chrisitians need to love them like Jesus. The fact is there are people in hell, or are hell bound that Jesus love's. Besides that I want to present a little food for thought on the whole law of attraction (which is you can't help who you are attracted to. If that's the case then is beastiality o.k..??? is pedohilia o.k.??? cause if you can't help who you are attracted it should be universal across the board. Just food for thought

[crowTrobot 2]

We as Christians are called to love one another the way Christ did unconditionally. Jesus the two greatest commandments are Love the Lord your God, and Love your neighbor (which means anyone in humanity). I love Homosexuals I am in no way a Gay Basher, or a homaphobe. However Jesus clearly says in the bible that homosexuality is a sin 1St Corinthians 6:9-10. We need to remember most of all as Chrisitan's we are called to love the sinner hate the sin. Homosexuality is a sin, but I think we as Chrisitians need to love them like Jesus. The fact is there are people in hell, or are hell bound that Jesus love's.

then maybe he should have a father/son chat and convince god that eternal punishment isn't such a great idea.

Besides that I want to present a little food for thought on the whole law of attraction (which is you can't help who you are attracted to. If that's the case then is beastiality o.k..??? is pedohilia o.k.??? cause if you can't help who you are attracted it should be universal across the board. Just food for thought

nothing personal but that's dumb (un-kewl). nobody, from either a religious or secular perspective is arguing that all things are "ok" based on personal attraction being ok. generally social moral guidelines are developed based on what is or isn't harmful for individuals - true morality is simply active empathetic behavior. in this case there is a huge difference between consensual homosexuality and pedophilia.

[Loismustdie 0]

then maybe he should have a father/son chat and convince god that eternal punishment isn't such a great idea.nothing personal but that's dumb (un-kewl). nobody, from either a religious or secular perspective is arguing that all things are "ok" based on personal attraction being ok. generally social moral guidelines are developed based on what is or isn't harmful for individuals - true morality is simply active empathetic behavior. in this case there is a huge difference between consensual homosexuality and pedophilia.

True- there but where do you draw the line, or in your mind can you? What if a persons true love was to have sex with tri-colored bomb pops, and they found a lover that was into it,too? Would that be alright? Relatively harmless, and to that couple that is an expression of love, yet obviously that makes no sense. Just because something gets to the point where people are looking the other way doesn't mean that it is actually acceptable. Here is a thought- maybe if you personally couldn't watch it for a few hours, it may not be normal? Could you watch gay sex for hours, up close and personal? Probably not.

[crowTrobot 2]

True- there but where do you draw the line, or in your mind can you? What if a persons true love was to have sex with tri-colored bomb pops, and they found a lover that was into it,too? Would that be alright? Relatively harmless, and to that couple that is an expression of love, yet obviously that makes no sense.

what makes sense to you is irrelevant - obviously it must make sense to them. as long as it doesn't affect anybody else mind your own business.

Just because something gets to the point where people are looking the other way doesn't mean that it is actually acceptable. Here is a thought- maybe if you personally couldn't watch it for a few hours, it may not be normal?

the idea that human sexual behavior has an intrinsic standard of normality is absurd.

Could you watch gay sex for hours, up close and personal? Probably not.

absolutely, as long as it's 2 hot chicks.

[David_Nicoson 1]

True- there but where do you draw the line, or in your mind can you? What if a persons true love was to have sex with tri-colored bomb pops, and they found a lover that was into it,too? Would that be alright? Relatively harmless, and to that couple that is an expression of love, yet obviously that makes no sense. Just because something gets to the point where people are looking the other way doesn't mean that it is actually acceptable. Here is a thought- maybe if you personally couldn't watch it for a few hours, it may not be normal? Could you watch gay sex for hours, up close and personal? Probably not.

I was starting to wonder if you were struck by lightening or something. Good to see you're OK.

[Loismustdie 0]

what makes sense to you is irrelevant - obviously it must make sense to them. as long as it doesn't affect anybody else mind your own business. the idea that human sexual behavior has an intrinsic standard of normality is absurd. absolutely, as long as it's 2 hot chicks.

Why not 2 dudes? It's perfectly fine, right?

[crowTrobot 2]

Why not 2 dudes? It's perfectly fine, right?

what does me wanting to watch something or not have to do with whether it's "fine" for the people doing it? nothing.you're trying to imply that there's some sort of (god-given or whatever) ingrained standard of normal sexual behavior when there obviously isn't. you're pious bigotry is showing again

[BWToth 0]

Kyle why is it wrong for a 15 and a 22 year old to have sex, but ok for an 18 year old and a 60 yr old to have sex? Either biblically, or personally, or societally.

[barrec 0]

Kyle why is it wrong for a 15 and a 22 year old to have sex, but ok for an 18 year old and a 60 yr old to have sex? Either biblically, or personally, or societally.

legally, it is that way to protect children from participating in behaviour the state/federal government deems to be too mature for their age. and i think it has merit. physically, most teens aren't through developing by then, and they certainly aren't near fully developed emotionally nor mentally. the common consensus is that 18 is the legal age someone is capable of choosing whether or not to participate in sexual relations (16 in washington state, however (i'm aware of the laws because i am a social worker)). i think it's very difficult to say that an 18 year old is incredibly more prepared to have sex than a 17 year old; however, i would feel comfortable saying they are probably more prepared than a 16 year old, and definately more so than a 15 year old, and so on. similarly, i don't know how more prepared an 18 year old is to sleep with a 60 year old...that just takes...dedication? lots of money? but the principle is the same, i believe.the law is there to protect teens from being preyed upon by adults who are more physically and verbally dominating. certainly not all sexually active teens are dating outside the legal limits, and certainly some of them are "ready" to engage insexual activity, but not all of them. and many feel it's up to the state and government to protect them from people trying to take advantage of them.

[Loismustdie 0]

what does me wanting to watch something or not have to do with whether it's "fine" for the people doing it? nothing.you're trying to imply that there's some sort of (god-given or whatever) ingrained standard of normal sexual behavior when there obviously isn't. you're pious bigotry is showing again

Your refusal to answer the question is all that is needed. The reality is this.... we pretend that it is o.k., and then when asked the question,"Could you watch it?" the answer is "Hell,no" and alot of wriggling around pretty much like you are doing right now. That says something.....what would that be?Hmmm...could it be that somehow you know that it is wrong,even though you will NEVER admit that? As far as being pioused, not really. I say do what you want. Just don't expect God to cut you slack. That goes for any sin...homosexuality is not special. All sin is an abomination to God. As far as being a bigot...no. Once again, I say do what you want. I will never tell anyone how to live there life. I will pass on what God is looking for, and they can do with it as they please. It really is that simple.

[Flack_attack 0]

the common consensus is that 18 is the legal age someone is capable of choosing whether or not to participate in sexual relations (16 in washington state, however (i'm aware of the laws because i am a social worker)).

Of course.