God Loves You

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Sorry, Are you responsible for her being in jail? is the question I was asking.Ok then, the answer is no. I am not responsible for her being in jail.I really wasn't discussing punishment at all.Well given that the OP is all about punishment, the punishment that is promised to us in the Bible, you haven't turned it around, you have changed the subject.I was simply illustrating how and why someone would be kicked out of your house, or not allowed to enter your house. It has nothing to do with proportional punishment. The fact is there is a point where you simply can't allow someone to live in your house and it still remain safe and secure. God cannot allow sinners to enter his house period. If he did it would be no different than earth.Few points here:You had to go through a long list to finally get to a point where I would exclude my sister from my house. Gods list has one item on it (2 if you include baptisim) that is insignificant if you believe in free will.In excluding her from my house I am not condeming her to endless torture and punishment, she is still capable of choosing her surroundings and lifestyle. God does not offer us that.God can choose to let anyone in his house because he has the ability to wash away all sin.God is all knowing and all powerful so his house will always remain safe and secure.It would be completely different to Earth as there would be no doubt as to Gods existanceYou also talk about dying while in a moment of doubt. You wouldn't be sent to Hell for having doubts. Why not? To get in to heaven you have to be free of sin. To have your sins washed away you need to believe in God. If I believed in God yesterday, but today God's a maybe and tommorow he's a no, there is a point where I'm getting in and where I'm not.I'm quite happy to guess that the vast majority, if not all Chrisitans have an element of Pascals wager wrapped up in their belief ie I better believe because if I'm wrong... It's only human nature. You had better hope that the point from above is closer to tommorow than it is to yesterday.By the way there are many different perspectives on what exactly is meant by Hell, or Ghenna. There are several intrepitations. This is actually an area I am very interested with. I am studying about this now. I will let you know what I learn.I would be interested to read what you come up with, and how you arrive at your conclussions. You are going to have to do some fancy foot work to get around phrases like 'eternal damnation' and 'hell fire'A tongue in cheek warning though - don't mis-represent what is written in scripture though, that's a sin.

You are right that eternal damnation, fire, ect are mentioned in reference to Hell. But in the Bible there are several different words which seem to mean different thngs (especially when you go back to original languages) Ghenna(sp) is the Hell most Christians mention, and the one you are referring to in your post. But there is also shoal, Hades, limbo, ect. So there do appear to be levels of Hell. For example, it is mentioned in the Bible that for Judus it would be better had he never been born. It is also mentioned of those that harm children, it would be better for them to have a milstone tied around there neck and sunk to the bottom of the sea. This may ( but probably not) imply that there is some punishment that is no worse than not being born. I do know already from my reading that there was much dispute among early Christians about such things. There are some nondemoninational churches that have a rather unique belief in Hell which makes alot of sense to me. I will share more as I learn. We are intrepeting the word punishment differently. I thought you were refering to God doing something to someone. Actully God only prevnets you from entering his kingdom, because he can't allow those that sin ( willfully, without repentence) in his kingdom. When he sets up his kingdom on earth, then those not allowed will be kicked out. What happens to those people is not of Gods doing, in the same way that you are not responsible for your sister going to prison in the earlier example.

[Loismustdie 0]

A few things. Canada, I am not going to sit here and tell you that just because I accept doesn't mean I won't question. I do, I just recognize the irrelevance in doing so because it matters not. You want to equate my love for my daughter to God's protection of heaven and it's doors- it's not the same, not even close. My love for my daughter I don't think can even compare to God's will when it comes to what is allowed in his kingdom. I cannot love that much, so your comparison while interesting isn't good enough. If my daughter grows up and rejects God then hell awaits her, same as me. Let's say I make it and she doesn't- God promises no tears, no sorrows in heaven so since that news would obviously make me sad I am going to assume that I won't know, thanks to God. The reward for what you do in this life is equal on both sides, whether good or evil. Logically how could it be any other way? Everything has an opposite force, we know this, it's a law of nature and the spirit world folllows. As far as different levels of hell, as Zealous donkey brought up, none of that is biblical. There is hell, and the lake of fire, and paradise and heaven- one is a waiting place, other is where you go when Christ comes back and judgement is rendered on all of humanity.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

As far as different levels of hell, as Zealous donkey brought up, none of that is biblical. There is hell, and the lake of fire, and paradise and heaven- one is a waiting place, other is where you go when Christ comes back and judgement is rendered on all of humanity.

No, there are several words, phrases, that describe Hell, or the places you mentioned interchangibly that are very different and have different meanings. There may only be 1 lake of fire, but there are definately different levels of torment. There is also a purging or burning that takes place to Christians before they are allowed to enter heaven. ( though not all will be effected by this)Just because something is not in the Bible doesn't mean it isn't true or authentic. But in the cases above they all do happen to be Biblical

[Flack_attack 0]

Firstly I want to address your point of the ultimate sacrifice you mentioned. I want you to think really how much of a sacrifice it is. Did God lose his son? Was he ever at risk of losing his son? If anybody actually sacrificed anything was it God or was it Jesus? What did Jesus suffer? 32 years out of heaven (which compared to eternity is the same as 30 seconds, 30 milliseconds or even no time at all, but I won't confuse this thread with math). The pain of being killed?Granted that last would hurt, but would you not die to save your loved ones? Also if you knew that your eternal soul was safe is that really a sacrifice?I'm sorry but it doesn't measure up. The whole life and sacrifice of Jesus might seem special to us from the stand point of a mere mortal, but from the point of view of a holy spirit there is barely any. It is not the 'Ultimate' sacrifice that Christianity promotes.

Just to clear up a few things Canada, not for the sake of argument, but your better understanding of Christianty:Jesus's crucifixation was the ultimate sacrifice. Jesus was fully human (and fully divine), so he experienced the physical pain of being crucified. However, many other people were crucified at that time (with presumeably equal physical pain), so what makes Christ's sacrifice special?The answer is: When Jesus died on the cross, he not only felt the pain of the nails and the thorns, but bore the weight of all the sins of mankind. That is precisely why we are saved by his death. All the sins of the past, the sins today, and all the sins of the future are already paid for, by Jesus. No mere mortal is perfect; therefore, no man could pay for all the sins in the world. That is why God had to send His Son (Himself). This is why Christians believe that we are forgiven for our sins when we ask for it, because our sins have already been paid for, through Jesus's death.

[Canada 0]

Just to clear up a few things Canada, not for the sake of argument, but your better understanding of Christianty:

Appreciate the sentiment, however I've been there, done that. I was raised in a Christian household, became a Christian and was completely happy in the whole JC & the big guy thing.However I have a curious mind and like to understand things so it was always going to be a matter of time before I stopped getting my snipets of the bible from church and started studying it in detail.Once I started down that path, God was doomed. I started seeing the flaws in the Bible and its inability to reconcile with the world I see around me. So I went further, studied harder and talked to other Christians about it. It still remained flawed. I figured logically to try a different approach and studied it again with an objective and open mind.Then I found myself angry because I had been obviously lied to and deceived all those years. This is why I detest anyone who lies in an effort to 'prove' their religion to others or makes claims that are obviously false. It is also why if I make a statement of fact I can back it up with evidence and references.At first I thought was angry with my parents and my priest(s), but I realised they were 'victims' of the same con-job. Then I realised I was angry with God, but I was angry with him for not existing.After I stopped laughing at the irony of that I stopped being angry, realised I was an atheist and finally found peace and happines.So I know the bible and I know 'God's ways' and I know Christianity better than most Christians.So again I thank you for your sentiment, but what you should be saying is "Just to clear up a few things Canada, not for the sake of argument, but your better understanding of my Christianty:"

Jesus's crucifixation was the ultimate sacrifice. Jesus was fully human (and fully divine), so he experienced the physical pain of being crucified. However, many other people were crucified at that time (with presumeably equal physical pain), so what makes Christ's sacrifice special?The answer is: When Jesus died on the cross, he not only felt the pain of the nails and the thorns, but bore the weight of all the sins of mankind. That is precisely why we are saved by his death. All the sins of the past, the sins today, and all the sins of the future are already paid for, by Jesus. No mere mortal is perfect; therefore, no man could pay for all the sins in the world. That is why God had to send His Son (Himself). This is why Christians believe that we are forgiven for our sins when we ask for it, because our sins have already been paid for, through Jesus's death.

So what did he sacrifice. ie What did he give up, what did he lose?How is 'bearing this weight' in anyway a sacrifice if it is temporary? Remember Jesus returned to heaven and sin cannot enter heaven so he obviously no longer carrys that sin.Sorry but the 'ultimate sacrifice' is man putting a spin on it from a mortal point of view, without thinking it through.If Jesus had been denied 'reentry' to Heaven, then we could talk about ulimate sacrifice, but for now he has given nothing more than some of his time, which being eternal, is not a lot of effort.

[Canada 0]

We are intrepeting the word punishment differently. I thought you were refering to God doing something to someone. Actully God only prevnets you from entering his kingdom, because he can't allow those that sin ( willfully, without repentence) in his kingdom. When he sets up his kingdom on earth, then those not allowed will be kicked out. What happens to those people is not of Gods doing, in the same way that you are not responsible for your sister going to prison in the earlier example.

Unfortunately you are making the mistake that many others make and are interpreting Gods action based on human standards/abilities.If God creates the rules that govern the universe, allows hell to exist and knows what happens to anyone who is kept from heaven then his refusal to allow you entry is guarenteeing your torment.If he is all powerful and all knowing he may as well be burning you himself.Your analagy, whilst a lot more appropriate that Lois' food obsessions, still misses the mark because by excluding my sister from my house I do not know what will happen to her, and it does not guarentee her punishment. She could still clean up her act and achieve happiness.The correct human equivalent is guilt through criminal negligence.All that said, I will acknowledge that you are the only one who has supplied the beginning of a reasonable counter to my OP in your 'search' for different degrees of hell. So I would be (clinically ) interested in seeing what your research shows.Keep in mind though any 'punishment', however mild, that is eternal is disproportionate to any mortal crime that can be commited.A lot of people really struggle with the concepts of infintiy and eternity so keep that in mind for your studies.

You want to equate my love for my daughter to God's protection of heaven and it's doors- it's not the same, not even close. My love for my daughter I don't think can even compare to God's will when it comes to what is allowed in his kingdom. I cannot love that much, so your comparison while interesting isn't good enough.

Your argument doesn't hold water. We know what love is. We know how to respond to it. The bible tells us it is good and it is the right way to behave.You cannot say that God would act less altruisticly than us because he loves us more.One contradicts the other. You cannot have it both ways

The reward for what you do in this life is equal on both sides, whether good or evil. Logically how could it be any other way?

Logically? Logically it could be anyway that God wanted it to be. If he made it this way he doesn't love us. QED

[Zealous Donkey 0]

So I would be (clinically ) interested in seeing what your research shows.

Ah, understood, you are just interested "clinically" meaning you are not asking me for specs of your future accomodations.

[Loismustdie 0]

Also, just a thought- God doesn't love anyone who doesn't believe in him. He promises nothing if you don't, except for punishmnet and make no bones about it. Which- if you don't believe- shouldn't be a problem. So, what exactly do atheists plan on gaining being so mad about something they don't believe exists anyway? Answer- they doubt, too. Mostly because if they are wrong it's there *** on the line, and if they are really, really wrong it's toast for eternity.

[Canada 0]

Also, just a thought- God doesn't love anyone who doesn't believe in him. He promises nothing if you don't, except for punishmnet and make no bones about it.

Nope, wrong. True love is unconditional. Try again.

Ah, understood, you are just interested "clinically" meaning you are not asking me for specs of your future accomodations.

[crowTrobot 2]

So, what exactly do atheists plan on gaining being so mad about something they don't believe exists anyway?

long-term survival for humanity.

they doubt, too. Mostly because if they are wrong it's there *** on the line, and if they are really, really wrong it's toast for eternity.

what if you're really wrong about Islam? since you think fear has to be such an essential part of belief, you should carry symbols and learn to pray in all the major religions just in case (kinda like benny in the mummy )

[Nacho Libre 0]

Nope, wrong. True love is unconditional. Try again.

Nacho see how this is wrong. True love die just like anything else. It have life of it's own, and when true love is, how you say, done wrong, true love can die. It is like they say, there is small line between love and hate. Maybe God see things the same way if one turns his back to him. Nacho must adjust his stretchy pants. Good day, Senor.

[brvheart 1,752]

If your sons and daughter decide that they doubt God exists, do you think they deserve to be sent to Hell. Could you do that to them? If God loves them more than you do, which he claims, how could he do that to them? You've already stated that you will do everything that you can to stop this happening. Why is God not putting in the same effort? The answer to the first part is NO! They definately do not deserve hell and no I could not do that to them. Why is God not putting in the same effort? Because God is just. If my kids have sinned they CAN NOT enter heaven. God CAN NOT make exceptions.

fyp

what if you're really wrong about Islam? since you think fear has to be such an essential part of belief, you should carry symbols and learn to pray in all the major religions just in case (kinda like benny in the mummy )

Every major religion is all-inclusive, except Christianity. In fact, I would want to know of any religion major or minor that isn't. I've never run into one.

[Nacho Libre 0]

God is omnipotent. God is omniscient. God can see the future. God can see the choices we make in the future.So... why doesn't God just put the people he knows will love him in Heaven the people he knows won't love him in Hell?

Nacho trying to comprehend what you say, and come up with good answer. The only thing Nacho could think of is it's seems like maybe it's like professional wrestling. The people know who will win for the story, but we as warriors must still do the dance, otherwise there would be nothing. Maybe God realize that it is wrong to just decide someones fate for them, but rather let them make choices and let them live there life, whatever happens. I must go cook the beans and chips for the children now. Nacho loves children.

[Sluggo 0]

Every major religion is all-inclusive, except Christianity. In fact, I would want to know of any religion major or minor that isn't. I've never run into one.

This is totally untrue.

[crowTrobot 2]

Every major religion is all-inclusive, except Christianity. In fact, I would want to know of any religion major or minor that isn't.

islam