30/60 Weakness Hand #1 - Jacks On Monotone Board

[akishore 0]

Hi all,Recently took a shot at a really juicy 30/60 game. A few hands came up where I was unsure if I was actually making the correct play or if I was playing too weak/tight on these hands.Hero is UTG+1 with black JJ.BB is a huge super-bluffing maniac. He frequently has cr'ed the turn against me with king high no draw and has capped 55 on an AA3 flop against me, etc.UTG raises, Hero three-bets, ..., Button cold-calls, SB folds, BB cold-calls, UTG calls.(12 sb) K 10 6 (all hearts)BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, Button folds, BB checkraises, UTG folds, Hero folds.Thoughts?I think my read should be decent enough, but if it's not, I'll just say that he was really aggro and stubborn and bad. I think that just makes the decision closer.Thanks,AseemP.S. Don't worry about the stakes. This game played like a juicy Pacific 2/4 game (aka Stars play money). Many flops six-handed and seven-handed, any pair = go to showdown, etc.

[Zach6668 513]

So....I think I may be missing something.Your read is that he is a maniac who bluff raises everything, and he c/r's a mono-suit flop and you fold something with serious showdown value?I don't like it. Tell me if I'm missing something.It's almost 10am, and I'm about to go to bed... yeah...

[akishore 0]

So....I think I may be missing something.Your read is that he is a maniac who bluff raises everything, and he c/r's a mono-suit flop and you fold something with serious showdown value?I don't like it. Tell me if I'm missing something.It's almost 10am, and I'm about to go to bed... yeah...

What? It's not THAT easy of a decision as to say "just call down all the way". You know that if we're behind we're drawing almost dead?Even maniacs get hands sometimes... any bare king beats me, any two pair beats me, a set of course, and in the best case he has a flush draw which will still get there a good amount of time + any possible overcard / two pair outs he might have.I mean I know it's a decent size pot and he's a maniac, but it's not THIS easy. You would be putting in 2.5 BB more to see a showdown when you could potentially be drawing virtually dead. I don't like it.(But I don't like folding there all that much either. But obv I like folding better than calling down since that's what I chose to do. But is there another alternative? Like calling the cr and folding a heart turn but raising a non-heart turn, folding to a 3bet or river bet and checking behind on river?)Aseem

[Zach6668 513]

Situations like this vs a maniac are very difficult to assess without actually being there and feeling the way the maniac is playing.I consider myself to be quite good against maniacs, as IMO they are the easist to make money from, even though I know some people hate playing against them.Either way, it's really hard to say. At the very least, I'm calling the c/r. Some maniacs I'll 3-bet.Mostly, I'll call. If the turn comes a heart, I'll more than likely be done with the hand, give him credit for the heart he'll have 25% (or whatever the chances are) of the time, and get out.If it's a non heart, say a 2, as in a complete blank, I'd definitely consider raising, but getting 3 bet will sting, although he could have nothing again. It really depends on the type of maniac. Some maniacs just raise/cap for kicks, others bluff raise, or fire 3-barrelled bluffs, but aren't willing to go nuts on the turn for some river FE etc. Most of the time, I'm just going to call down.Say the turn is like an A or a Q, I'll consider folding, but usually I will still call down.Against most maniacs, I turn to a very passive player post flop. I'll let them do the betting and let them hang themselves. HOWEVER, if I have TPGK, or better, I'll usually make sure I get a few more bets in on the turn or make sure the flop is capped etc. And obv, there are considerations for how vulnerable our hand is given the board, etc.In conclusion, this is too situational, and I have to play the session with this guy before I can say 100% what I'd do. - Zach

[akishore 0]

Situations like this vs a maniac are very difficult to assess without actually being there and feeling the way the maniac is playing.I consider myself to be quite good against maniacs, as IMO they are the easist to make money from, even though I know some people hate playing against them.Either way, it's really hard to say. At the very least, I'm calling the c/r. Some maniacs I'll 3-bet.Mostly, I'll call. If the turn comes a heart, I'll more than likely be done with the hand, give him credit for the heart he'll have 25% (or whatever the chances are) of the time, and get out.If it's a non heart, say a 2, as in a complete blank, I'd definitely consider raising, but getting 3 bet will sting, although he could have nothing again. It really depends on the type of maniac. Some maniacs just raise/cap for kicks, others bluff raise, or fire 3-barrelled bluffs, but aren't willing to go nuts on the turn for some river FE etc. Most of the time, I'm just going to call down.Say the turn is like an A or a Q, I'll consider folding, but usually I will still call down.Against most maniacs, I turn to a very passive player post flop. I'll let them do the betting and let them hang themselves. HOWEVER, if I have TPGK, or better, I'll usually make sure I get a few more bets in on the turn or make sure the flop is capped etc. And obv, there are considerations for how vulnerable our hand is given the board, etc.In conclusion, this is too situational, and I have to play the session with this guy before I can say 100% what I'd do. - Zach

K awesome post. I agree with almost everytihng you wrote. I too really really really <3 maniacs passionately and love playing against them and normally I would take a similar line if the situation were slightly less marginal.I think it's a little close here but I see what you're saying.Thanks,Aseem

[homnig 0]

akishore, what site was this on?

[mrdannyg 274]

i really dislike folding here, given our read. with no read, its marginal, since he is often playing a king or heart that way, and sometimes a ten. with our read, he could be on anything, and we're only behind to a king or better.he could have you beat here, but the phrase "even maniacs get cards sometimes" screams of weakness to me. we have no reason to think he has cards this time, and yet we're folding in a big heads-up pot with decent showdown value.if the turn comes a heart or something really scary, we can consider folding. given our read, i prefer a 3-bet, depending on how predictable he is on the turn - i.e. whether we can comfortably bet/fold a turn if he just calls our 3-bet.with all the dead money, and BB doing our work for us and thinning the field, i really think this is a poor, weak fold. if you had 99, or the turn is a heart, our decision is closer to marginal, IMO.

[rwood 0]

i agree that we need to see a showdown here if no heart falls, im also hating a Q or A. if he is as nuts as you say he is he might even have black cards and just tryint to run you off because of the scary board. i think 3 betting the flop accomplishes nothing info wise, as he's shown he's capable of raising w/ absolutely nothing. i think you have to call down here, the pot is big already, you are going to have to call 2.5bbs more to win 13.5+IO(2.5)=6.4 so you only have to be good 1 in 6 to make it prof. i think easy call down... i most likely call down against him every time on this board getting these odds, as you are almost assuredly good at LEAST 1 in 6. cheers.

[mrdannyg 274]

i think 3 betting the flop accomplishes nothing info wise, as he's shown he's capable of raising w/ absolutely nothing.

i agree with this. but given our read, aren't we ahead on the flop often enough to do it anyways? even more so when you consider he may cap and we're still ahead (if he has a T, naked heart, or worse)

[Knight_Owl 0]

best case he has a flush draw which will still get there a good amount of time + any possible overcard / two pair outs he might have.

So, you state that this maniac c/r bluffs quite a bit yet you fold to him? Your words/actions are Contradicting themselfs.And about your thoughts of possible hands villian might have. Just SCREAMS!! "I"m a passive player and only want to get involved in a hand if I have the stone cold Nutz!" Please, re-evaluate what you just posted and stated.Gl 2 u!

[akishore 0]

Haha, it's really tough communicating this hand because you can't just assume that villian has any two cards. I think I unknowingly exxagerated the maniacal part of villian... if I was to estimate his stats, he probably played 40-ish% of hands preflop and did check/fold some flops, so it's not like he was a "bet-raise-every-hand-arrrrrrrr-in" type player. =DBah, I kind of regret posting this because I don't want to come across as stubborn and unwilling to accept that I'm wrong, but I really think it's waaaay closer than you guys are giving it credit for. It really does border between spewing and passing up on a marginal edge.Aseem

And about your thoughts of possible hands villian might have. Just SCREAMS!! "I"m a passive player and only want to get involved in a hand if I have the stone cold Nutz!"

BTW, no it doesn't.....If usual best case is I'm roughly 65% at best (closer to 60% or 55% if he has overcard or two pair outs) and worst case I'm roughly 5%.........(slightly ahead or way behind)then it's not exactly a great spot, and I don't think that classifies as being weak/tight if I'm folding there. =)AseemP.S. I do realize that occasionally I'm ahead more than 65% if he has worse than top pair and no flush draw, so I'm roughly 80% there or so. But you get my point -- how often does this happen?

[Zach6668 513]

Like I said earlier Aseem, hands like this are sooooooo situational, and read dependant, that it makes it hard to convey exactly what the situation is in just a forum.I know you are a great LHE player, and I trust you have very valid reasons for making the play you did, given your read.I am glad you posted this though, as it definitely makes for some good discussion.

[TheCinciKid 0]

My instinct after reading Aseem's read on the villain was that this is an obvious calldown. But, after reading the post I agree that it's kinda close. I personally don't like to give up pots and I might try something really creative like 3-bet/folding the flop or calling and raise/folding the turn, but against a maniac this probably wouldn't work. Like Aseem said, we're probably not sacrificing a ton of equity here. I would put villain's most likely hand as something like AT with the Ace of hearts or something similar, in which case we're not a huge favorite and we could also be drawing dead. It's very situational and I think it's important to go with your instinct in these types of spots.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Why are the only two options here call down the whole way or fold on the flop?You dont HAVE to call the turn bet if the ace of hearts falls just because you called the flop raise. Call the flop raise, and fold the turn if it's shitty. Call a river bet unconditionally if you get that far.Who knows - you may spike your jack. Or he could check the turn to you.

If usual best case is I'm roughly 65% at best (closer to 60% or 55% if he has overcard or two pair outs) and worst case I'm roughly 5%.........

Then why not check/fold the flop?

[akishore 0]

I'm not very satisfied with the idea of calling the flop and folding a heart turn / calling down otherwise, but I guess it's the best option for now.And Abba, I think you were being sarcastic but if not, I don't c/f the flop because no one has shown any strength yet. =) But if a person on my right had bet out, I do fold this flop normally. Same with if I am cr'ed on this flop. Just what makes this hand tough is that the person doing the cr'ing is LAG.Aseem

[iggymcfly 0]

Edit: Somehow missed that this was all hearts. I think a fold's actually fine here, although it's very close between that and calling down any time an ace or heart doesn't fall.

[pokerplayer24 0]

Call flop, raise non heart turn.Its easy when you're in position.